LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[looneymoon]

In terms of coping with tragedy and whatnot, it's really not fair to compare either of them. They deal with it in different ways. The importance is the fact that they're even able to deal in the first place.

Now I think I'll side with Like Vine's assertion a little bit. I don't think one is more emotionally strong than the other, but rather Aeris is more emotionally secure than Tifa is (there is a slight difference). Aeris is portrayed as a lone character - despite having her foster mother, she's isolated, has no friends and has to deal with being the last of her kind all the while having random voices whispering to her all the time. Despite this she somehow becomes one of, if not the most socially adjusted characters in the game. She's constantly positive. This positivity may or not be healthy in one's view, but it certainly shows how little Aeris lets her problems effect her. This contrasts to the more sombre nature of Tifa's character (in fact, I wouldn't even single out Tifa in this regard. Compared to Aeris, the majority of the cast are mega downers). She's insecure, always second guessing herself and very co-dependant. The fact that Tifa herself puts herself down in comparison to Aeris demonstrates how deep her insecurity can go.

One scene that comes to mind is when Red was questioning if he was a Sephiroth clone or not. Tifa's reaction was a little disturbing. It felt more like she was putting on a false-sense of optimism even though I got the impression she herself did not believe her own lie. On the other hand, Aeris' dealing with a depressed Barret was by no means tactful, but it seemed more genuine in a way - I thought it showed at least some sort of respect for the situation's gravity (unlike Tifa's adamant "it's going to be fine!"). It still shows that Aeris has a problem of minimalizing existing issues. But somehow I find that more genuine/healthy/emotionally competant/etc. than Tifa's "if I ignore it enough hopefully it will go away" attitude.

Not to mention that plotwise, Aeris has a more independant arc while Tifa's entire character is basically dedicated to Cloud. While this does not make her a "lesser woman" in any regard, I can see how this may cloud some people's view of her (pun totally unintended). IMO AC!Tifa was a much more independant character than FF7!Tifa. But because AC was basically Cloud-centric it didn't really get to show that. I think, had AC given her her own subplot where she played a more active role in saving the children (ie. not just telling Cloud to do it), it would have probably shown the more well-rounded Tifa post-FF7, not to mention being a better movie overall. Seeing her outside of the domestic mother/supporting wife role is something I'd like to see in a future compilation title, but I fear Square may not have anything further planned for her character. Honestly, they have so much untapped potential in existing compilation characters, I do not see the reason to focus so much attention on new ones no one really cares that much about anyways.

also, please excuse post written under the most extreme exhaustion. Work 9-6, plus lining up 4hours for olympic concerts/events and shopping for the rest of the day does not make for a healthy brain.

 

[Loxetta]

Or maybe he would never recover any reality at all.

Possible, yes. But Tifa's hesitant nature still had a hand in Cloud's illusion and how strong he let it get.

In terms of coping with tragedy and whatnot, it's really not fair to compare either of them. They deal with it in different ways. The importance is the fact that they're even able to deal in the first place.

Now I think I'll side with Like Vine's assertion a little bit. I don't think one is more emotionally strong than the other, but rather Aeris is more emotionally secure than Tifa is (there is a slight difference). Aeris is portrayed as a lone character - despite having her foster mother, she's isolated, has no friends and has to deal with being the last of her kind all the while having random voices whispering to her all the time. Despite this she somehow becomes one of, if not the most socially adjusted characters in the game. She's constantly positive. This positivity may or not be healthy in one's view, but it certainly shows how little Aeris lets her problems effect her. This contrasts to the more sombre nature of Tifa's character (in fact, I wouldn't even single out Tifa in this regard. Compared to Aeris, the majority of the cast are mega downers). She's insecure, always second guessing herself and very co-dependant. The fact that Tifa herself puts herself down in comparison to Aeris demonstrates how deep her insecurity can go.

One scene that comes to mind is when Red was questioning if he was a Sephiroth clone or not. Tifa's reaction was a little disturbing. It felt more like she was putting on a false-sense of optimism even though I got the impression she herself did not believe her own lie. On the other hand, Aeris' dealing with a depressed Barret was by no means tactful, but it seemed more genuine in a way - I thought it showed at least some sort of respect for the situation's gravity (unlike Tifa's adamant "it's going to be fine!"). It still shows that Aeris has a problem of minimalizing existing issues. But somehow I find that more genuine/healthy/emotionally competant/etc. than Tifa's "if I ignore it enough hopefully it will go away" attitude.

Not to mention that plotwise, Aeris has a more independant arc while Tifa's entire character is basically dedicated to Cloud. While this does not make her a "lesser woman" in any regard, I can see how this may cloud some people's view of her (pun totally unintended). IMO AC!Tifa was a much more independant character than FF7!Tifa. But because AC was basically Cloud-centric it didn't really get to show that. I think, had AC given her her own subplot where she played a more active role in saving the children (ie. not just telling Cloud to do it), it would have probably shown the more well-rounded Tifa post-FF7, not to mention being a better movie overall. Seeing her outside of the domestic mother/supporting wife role is something I'd like to see in a future compilation title, but I fear Square may not have anything further planned for her character. Honestly, they have so much untapped potential in existing compilation characters, I do not see the reason to focus so much attention on new ones no one really cares that much about anyways.

Quoted everything because it's awesome. Also wanted to add that it makes a difference that Aerith has been dealing with her issues a lot longer than Tifa has, and naturally someone who has had more time will be better at dealing than someone who hasn't. Tifa matures a lot more by the time AC/C comes around. But FF7!Aerith had already reached the point that AC!Tifa had.

 

[Fighter]

Possible, yes. But Tifa's hesitant nature still had a hand in Cloud's illusion and how strong he let it get.

And again: or her hesitant approach kept him from breaking longer.

She was in a situation with no right answer.

Quoted everything because it's awesome. Also wanted to add that it makes a difference that Aerith has been dealing with her issues a lot longer than Tifa has, and naturally someone who has had more time will be better at dealing than someone who hasn't. Tifa matures a lot more by the time AC/C comes around. But FF7!Aerith had already reached the point that AC!Tifa had.

I don't really agree. Aerith hasn't reached any higher emotional stage because simply put she's not in Tifa's shoes when we meet them in the game. Aerith lives a sheltered life, Tifa is an active AVALANCHE member and a mother figure to a girl.

Aerith is more confident and sure of herself in the same sense that a person with a stable life is more confident than one whose life is still in turmoil. I would not call the former stronger for it.

Also can we stop saying someone's dedication to another person is a weakness?

 

[Loxetta]

And again: or her hesitant approach kept him from breaking longer.

She was in a situation with no right answer.

Fair enough.

I don't really agree. Aerith hasn't reached any higher emotional stage because simply put she's not in Tifa's shoes when we meet them in the game. Aerith lives a sheltered life, Tifa is an active AVALANCHE member and a mother figure to a girl.

I don't really see what was so sheltered about Aerith's life. Her early childhood was spent kept prisoner in a lab by Hojo as a research specimen, she witnessed her mother attacked and killed while they were escaping and she was a small child, then was stalked the rest of her life by the de-facto government, while living in the slums of Midgar. That's not sheltered, man.

Tifa, in contrast, had an almost boring life until she turned 15/16. She lost her mother when she was young as well, yes, and I'm not going to say that one way of loosing one's mother is more traumatic than another, no, but I can't see anything in Tifa's early life that would compare hers to Aerith's.

So yea, I call bullshit there.

Aerith is more confident and sure of herself in the same sense that a person with a stable life is more confident than one whose life is still in turmoil. I would not call the former stronger for it.

I would. It means she has learned how to deal with her issues, or at least found a method that works for most of them. Tifa is still in that process of working things out for herself. Or at least that is my perception of her character.

Also can we stop saying someone's dedication to another person is a weakness?

I don't think that, myself. In fact if anything I think Tifa's devotion to Cloud is a sign of strength more than one of weakness.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

cause tifa like most brainless big tited women go after the jerk off that will never pay attention to them.
as well cloud is not androgynous no one actually thinks their hair can do that or they can wield what looks to be a 400lb sword.
I hope to god im never like cloud.

You find such interesting stuff on the internet when you look up 'tifa caused Cloud's Geostigma'.

 

[I Am Not Me]

she witnessed her mother attacked and killed while they were escaping and she was a small child

Didn't her mother die in the slums train yard place?

 

[Althea]

^^ Yeah she did but it was as a result of injuries sustained while escaping IIRC.

 

[Madame Mayor]

No one's saying it does, but I'm just saying your intense reaction alluded to a different understanding (i.e. Aerith is pillar, Tifa is sapling). That's all.

I pray for the soul that makes OWD actually pissed off. She's being laid back at the moment.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I pray for the soul that makes OWD actually pissed off. She's being laid back at the moment.

This I'd like to see.

 

[Lonewolf]

Mind if I put my two cents in over my lunch hour?

...Maybe if Tifa would have said "Uh, no, it's been seven years, not five. Wtf are you talking about?" at the train station when Cloud was just coming out of zombie-state, he might have never cemented his false reality in the first place.

Quoted for the truth. How could Cloud have carried his false-persona if someone didn't believe it? I don't think Tifa intentionally tried to hurt him, but you have to admit she didn't exactly instill much confidence in him when Sephiroth told him that he was a puppet.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cloud wouldn't have believed it, and if his persona would've been shattered, he'd have been reduced to a Jenova zombie just like he had been before.

The entire REASON for him taking that lie as truth was because the *real* Cloud was gone. He had no persona or sense of self BUT the illusion and had it been shattered, he'd just go back to being a Sephiroth Copy. So all that would've happened was Cloud would've been the puppet he was meant to, and no one would've been able to reach him.

 

[Loxetta]

Not necessarily. Cloud was building his new persona halfway based on Tifa's mind and thoughts and actions, iirc. If she would have helped put it straight with him, he might have simply reconstructed a persona closer to reality.

 

[Fighter]

I don't really see what was so sheltered about Aerith's life. Her early childhood was spent kept prisoner in a lab by Hojo as a research specimen, she witnessed her mother attacked and killed while they were escaping and she was a small child, then was stalked the rest of her life by the de-facto government, while living in the slums of Midgar. That's not sheltered, man.

Tifa, in contrast, had an almost boring life until she turned 15/16. She lost her mother when she was young as well, yes, and I'm not going to say that one way of loosing one's mother is more traumatic than another, no, but I can't see anything in Tifa's early life that would compare hers to Aerith's.

So yea, I call bullshit there.

And I can't see anything in Aerith's present life that would compare her to Tifa's. The tragedies Aerith had to go through are a distant memory, she was raised by a loving foster parent whom she still lives with at 22 and does little else but tend to her flowers. Yes I would call her life sheltered compared to someone who's an eco terrorist and made their own way after losing everything.

I would. It means she has learned how to deal with her issues, or at least found a method that works for most of them. Tifa is still in that process of working things out for herself. Or at least that is my perception of her character.

Tifa has found a way by fighting Shinra. It's arguable who's 'stronger' for doing what. And like wise trying to figure who's 'stronger' one who acts carefree or one who's more somber and serious when their personalities are different to begin with.

This debate seems a little ridiculous anyway. But lets go back to the core. It started thus:

Women who get left behind by men are usually pretty goddamn upset about it. Besides, Tifa was never as emotionally strong nor independent as say, Aerith. She's very attached to Cloud during the game, but I feel like she really overcame this in the two years between the game and AC. When she yelled at Cloud I wanted to give her a brofist.

The implication here is that Aerith would deal better with these issues than Tifa because Tifa is weaker emotionally and because she is not as independent. We would like this either proved or conceded.

1) Would be good to see how her attachment to Cloud is a weakness that needs some kind of overcoming.
2) How is she less independent.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Not necessarily. Cloud was building his new persona halfway based on Tifa's mind and thoughts and actions, iirc. If she would have helped put it straight with him, he might have simply reconstructed a persona closer to reality.

And if Cloud didn't latch onto that false persona, there would be nothing. He'd just be a shell. It's stated repeatedly that the reason he took that false persona was so that he could function. If it were shattered at that time, all that'd be left would be the Jenova zombie that all the other Sephiroth Clones were.

 

[Loxetta]

And I can't see anything in Aerith's present life that would compare her to Tifa's. The tragedies Aerith had to go through are a distant memory, she was raised by a loving foster parent whom she still lives with at 22 and does little else but tend to her flowers. Yes I would call her life sheltered compared to someone who's an eco terrorist and made their own way after losing everything.

Tifa has found a way by fighting Shinra. It's arguable who's 'stronger' for doing what. And like wise trying to figure who's 'stronger' one who acts carefree or one who's more somber and serious when their personalities are different to begin with.

I suppose it's more a matter of opinion, then. I'll agree to disagree.

This debate seems a little ridiculous anyway. But lets go back to the core. It started thus:

The implication here is that Aerith would deal better with these issues than Tifa because Tifa is weaker emotionally and because she is not as independent. We would like this either proved or conceded.

1) Would be good to see how her attachment to Cloud is a weakness that needs some kind of overcoming.
2) How is she less independent.

Whose attachment to Cloud and whose lack of independence?

And if Cloud didn't latch onto that false persona, there would be nothing. He'd just be a shell. It's stated repeatedly that the reason he took that false persona was so that he could function. If it were shattered at that time, all that'd be left would be the Jenova zombie that all the other Sephiroth Clones were.

Tifa couldn't very well have shattered something that was still gooey and being formed while she was standing there.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Umm, yeah she could. Because again, there was no real basis there to begin with. Cloud had no idea who he really was or what was going on. As stated in the Ultimania Omega, Cloud's mind was "shattered." He had no sense of self or awareness of the truth.

 

[Lonewolf]

And if Cloud didn't latch onto that false persona, there would be nothing. He'd just be a shell. It's stated repeatedly that the reason he took that false persona was so that he could function. If it were shattered at that time, all that'd be left would be the Jenova zombie that all the other Sephiroth Clones were.

Cloud made it to the city on his own. I think the timeline shows that he was on his own for almost a year between Zack's death and meeting Tifa in the train yard. I think it's safe to say that Zack's death upset Cloud and that Cloud believed he was a former x-soldier, and Tifa never called him out on it.

And I can't see anything in Aerith's present life that would compare her to Tifa's. The tragedies Aerith had to go through are a distant memory, she was raised by a loving foster parent whom she still lives with at 22 and does little else but tend to her flowers. Yes I would call her life sheltered compared to someone who's an eco terrorist and made their own way after losing everything.

How can you compare the two? Tifa was basically the Nibelheim princess until it burned down. She went after Sephiroth - not the smartest thing to do, and got herself into trouble. Then what does she do? She joins a terrorist group in revenge against the Shinra. Tifa managed enough funds to start her own business not once, but twice.

Aerith on the other hand was persecuted her entire life. She had powers that she didn't understand herself, and had no one to relate to. Aerith was a threat to Sephiroth's plan to take over the planet. She might have been taking care of her foster mother, but I didn't see Tifa reaching out to care for anyone after the Nibelheim was destroyed. Elmyra might have had relative money, but you'd think if she could afford it, they'd get out of the slums and move onto the plate.

 

[Fighter]

Tifa didn't know what the hell was happening to Cloud in the first place. Kind of silly to question her judgment in the matter. She probably thought she'd get him of the street and they can talk after and then it turned out he's really messed up and unstable.

Whose attachment to Cloud and whose lack of independence?

Mukki's?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cloud made it to the city on his own. I think the timeline shows that he was on his own for almost a year between Zack's death and meeting Tifa in the train yard. I think it's safe to say that Zack's death upset Cloud and that Cloud believed he was a former x-soldier, and Tifa never called him out on it.

Uh...no it doesn't.

Cloud was on his own only for around 2 months after Zack's death, and around that time his mind shattered.

"being
unable to withstand the SOLDIER treatments, he could not retain himself and
his mind completely collapsed. When reunited with Tifa in Midgar, though, the
coherence of being normal would return to him and he would gain a personality
that essentially let him be his own person, even if confusion would come of
it."

Immediately prior to the start of the game, when Cloud's mind was shattered,
he ran into Tifa and seemed to immediately return to normal (-->P.13); this
was because the mimic abilities of the Jenova cells inside Cloud read her
mind, seeing her memories of him, which were then combined with his own ideal
vision of himself, fashioning a new personality for him.

How can you compare the two? Tifa was basically the Nibelheim princess until it burned down. She went after Sephiroth - not the smartest thing to do, and got herself into trouble. Then what does she do? She joins a terrorist group in revenge against the Shinra. Tifa managed enough funds to start her own business not once, but twice.

Tifa inherited Seventh Heaven. She didn't start it. The guy who owned it died, and left it to her. And by your logic, Aerith was the princess of the slums since everyone there liked her, kids and adults alike.

Aerith on the other hand was persecuted her entire life. She had powers that she didn't understand herself, and had no one to relate to. Aerith was a threat to Sephiroth's plan to take over the planet. She might have been taking care of her foster mother, but I didn't see Tifa reaching out to care for anyone after the Nibelheim was destroyed. Elmyra might have had relative money, but you'd think if she could afford it, they'd get out of the slums and move onto the plate.

Aerith was not persecuted. What are you talking about? She was poor, but she was not persecuted, shunned, or discriminated against. I have no idea what FFVII you played, but no...she was not persecuted against. Shinra didn't even actively pursue her until the start of FFVII.

 

[Lonewolf]

Uh...no it doesn't.

Cloud was on his own only for around 2 months after Zack's death, and around that time his mind shattered.

My bad. I read somewhere where it was supposed to be a year. My point is, two months or two years, Cloud managed on his own for a while, in which time he needed to eat and find shelter.

Tifa inherited Seventh Heaven. She didn't start it. The guy who owned it died, and left it to her. And by your logic, Aerith was the princess of the slums since everyone there liked her, kids and adults alike.

My logic shows that Tifa had all the kids in the neighborhood that wanted to play with her, and excluded Cloud. They blamed Cloud for her going into the mountains and getting herself injured.

Aerith on the other hand, had to endure a young life growing up in a slum. She knew what kind of place the honeybee inn was - doesn't that tell you anything?

Aerith was not persecuted. What are you talking about? She was poor, but she was not persecuted, shunned, or discriminated against. I have no idea what FFVII you played, but no...she was not persecuted against. Shinra didn't even actively pursue her until the start of FFVII.

Aerith's mother was seen as a thing. Aerith was persued by the Shinra her entire life, and when they caught her, they treated her the same way as her mother, and tried to breed her with an animal. They treated her as less than human. To me, that counts as being persecuted.

 

[Loxetta]

Umm, yeah she could. Because again, there was no real basis there to begin with. Cloud had no idea who he really was or what was going on. As stated in the Ultimania Omega, Cloud's mind was "shattered." He had no sense of self or awareness of the truth.

Exactly. How much more fucked up could he have been if Tifa would have nudged him in the direction of what really happened? He was reading her mind and her memories at that moment to build his illusion, ergo his illusion was not complete at that time. She could have influenced it.

Tifa didn't know what the hell was happening to Cloud in the first place. Kind of silly to question her judgment in the matter. She probably thought she'd get him of the street and they can talk after and then it turned out he's really messed up and unstable.

I know Tifa had no idea so couldn't have consciously chosen to act differently, which makes the argument a bit of a moot point really, but had Tifa been a more forthright kind of person things may have played out differently. I'm not trying to say it's her fault he was fucked up or anything, as though she did it on purpose, just that her hesitance had a hand in Cloud's illusion and how well it stuck for him.

Mukki's?

Well, he did follow Cloud across the ocean to Costa del Sol. That's devotion right thar.

 

[Tennyo]

Cloud was on the run with Zack for a year, then went to Midgar straight after he died. Might have taken a few days for him to get there and run into Tifa, but it was that long.

Timeline says he met up with her on 10/5. That's fifth of October, right? Or was that just a general, dateless entry?

Remember the game timeline starts in December.

 

[Fighter]

How can you compare the two? Tifa was basically the Nibelheim princess until it burned down. She went after Sephiroth - not the smartest thing to do, and got herself into trouble.

But Aerith was clever to go into the Forgotten City alone?

Then what does she do? She joins a terrorist group in revenge against the Shinra.

Exactly. Made it on her own in the slums of Midgar, got herself into AVALANCHE, became a fighter. How weak by comparison.

Tifa managed enough funds to start her own business not once, but twice.

Yeah exactly. I doubt she had much after her whole life burned down. EDIT: inherited the first time I forgot.

Aerith on the other hand was persecuted her entire life. She had powers that she didn't understand herself, and had no one to relate to. Aerith was a threat to Sephiroth's plan to take over the planet.

She had plenty of good things in between, having a caring parent her entire life for one. And her persecution by the Turks is kinda exaggerated all things considered.

She might have been taking care of her foster mother, but I didn't see Tifa reaching out to care for anyone after the Nibelheim was destroyed. Elmyra might have had relative money, but you'd think if she could afford it, they'd get out of the slums and move onto the plate.

 

[Makoeyes987]

My bad. I read somewhere where it was supposed to be a year. My point is, two months or two years, Cloud managed on his own for a while, in which time he needed to eat and find shelter.

Did you not read the FFVII Ultimania Omega translations I posted? His mind got shattered. So whatever "functioning" he did, resulted to nothing. Because he still ended up a brain dead Sephiroth Copy. He wasn't functioning very well if he ended up confused, delirious, and "shattered" at a random train station.

My logic shows that Tifa had all the kids in the neighborhood that wanted to play with her, and excluded Cloud. They blamed Cloud for her going into the mountains and getting herself injured.

By Cloud's own admission, the reason he was left out was because of his own shyness, bad attitude and superiority complex.

Kid Cloud: I used to think...they were all stupid.

Tifa: What!?

Kid Cloud: You were all childish, laughing at every little stupid thing.

Tifa: But we were children, back then.

Kid Cloud: ...I know. I'm the one that was stupid. I really wanted to play with
everyone, but I was never allowed into the group. Then later... I began to
think I was different... That I was different from those immature kids. That
then... maybe...

Shadow Cloud: Just maybe, they would invite me... I thought that might happen,
so I hang around...

Kid Cloud: I was so prejudiced. And...weak.

Tifa never excluded him. He just was too shy to actually talk to her, and instead wanted to get *her* to notice *him*.

Aerith on the other hand, had to endure a young life growing up in a slum. She knew what kind of place the honeybee inn was - doesn't that tell you anything?

A young life where everyone in the slums liked her, looked after her, and where she was popular with the kids as well. Did Crisis Core not tell you anything?

Aerith's mother was seen as a thing. Aerith was persued by the Shinra her entire life, and when they caught her, they treated her the same way as her mother, and tried to breed her with an animal. They treated her as less than human. To me, that counts as being persecuted.

Shinra didn't actively pursue Aerith individually until Cloud bounced into Midgar. Until then it was basically Tseng trying to persuade Aerith to join Shinra, and her refusing politely. Once she sided with AVALANCHE was when Shinra took the kid gloves off.

 

[Winter]

And I can't see anything in Aerith's present life that would compare her to Tifa's. The tragedies Aerith had to go through are a distant memory, she was raised by a loving foster parent whom she still lives with at 22 and does little else but tend to her flowers. Yes I would call her life sheltered compared to someone who's an eco terrorist and made their own way after losing everything.

She also hears dead people and is actively pursued by the government. I wouldn't really call that sheltered.

Looneymoon's entire post was actually what I was pretty much coming in here to say. I completely agree, and that's honestly how I feel on the whole matter. I felt like Tifa and Aerith almost played the foil for each other; one was strong physically, the other strong emotionally.

But Aerith was clever to go into the Forgotten City alone?

I'm curious; what was she supposed to do, by your logic? Cloud beat the shit out of her, she couldn't just stay with the party.