LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Son Goku]

I quote myself, where I replied to someone who said he ignores the Compilation because "it`s milking!" and the game was ambiguous about who Cloud loves:

The point is, only because you ignore the compilation it doesn`t stop to be canon.
Only because you didn`t see or don`t want to see that it only can go one way in the game, doesn`t change that this was always the case.
They only confirmed what they had shown in the game already!
The low version for example is similar to not finding Vincent and Yuffie. It just means you didn`t see the complete thing.

In the Lifestream event, we were shown the process of realizing (getting aware) of their mutual feelings they always had (except the time before Cloud regained himself again).
In the HA version of the HW scene the confirmation of Romantic feelings happens for sure.
(Sorry to say that but: You have to be extremely biased to not get that!)
The LA version is like not having reached the point to reveal the feelings yet.

And, it is dependent of TIFA`S affection level not Cloud`s!
Even if you put the argument that Cloud`s affection level could be dependent on the player, it doesn`t change the Lifestream event.
The affection level only change whether the confirmation surely happens or it ends apathetic because they can`t manage to openly confirm their feelings.

The Cloud who fully regained himself never had the chance to interact with Aerith while she was living. And he can`t develop a love with a dead person, can he?
But, because of the time where he interacted with her with his “mixed personality”, he has complicated feelings towards her, which can probably not be categorized strictly as mere friend or romantic interest.

Conclusion:
Tifa is for sure his Romantic Interest! Whether, the confirmation happens or not, the feelings are still there.
Neither the given short time nor the condition Cloud was in allowed to develop (possible) feelings for Aerith that reaches the level of Romantic Love.

Now, this is my interpretation but it fits what the compilation and Ultimanias tell us, therefore I saw what they tell us now and they tell us without altering things they already have shown!

 

[Tennyo]

@ Ite: You imply that Cloud is not allowed to ever move on from Aerith's death, which is what the other side wants. If Cloud doesn't move on then he's meeting up with her for romps in the flower fields, which we all know is BS. We also know this goes against the entire plot and ending of AC/C, because the whole point of that is that Cloud is moving on from his guilt, and his guilt is the only reason why he was obsessing over her the whole time.

 

[Joker]

Guilt?

 

[Tennyo]

Yes?

 

[Ite]

Guilt?

derp.

And @ Frost Mage: Yeah, I know. I'm not saying I agree with that. In fact, I'm saying I disagree with that, but people can think whatever they want.

 

[looneymoon]

Drake that link is actually broken, try this.

GODDAMN YOU

why am i so easily fooled

...oh and LT

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Again, the point that she's dead doesn't hold a lot of weight in this thread, as it's not so much about who wins Cloud in the end, it's who he really loves. It could be argued that while he has feelings enough to fuck Tifa, his heart truly belonged to Aeris. I don't think that's the case, but opinion isn't valid here either.

A fair point, and the former is a truthful assertion.

@ Ite: You imply that Cloud is not allowed to ever move on from Aerith's death, which is what the other side wants. If Cloud doesn't move on then he's meeting up with her for romps in the flower fields, which we all know is BS. We also know this goes against the entire plot and ending of AC/C, because the whole point of that is that Cloud is moving on from his guilt, and his guilt is the only reason why he was obsessing over her the whole time.

Loving Aerith =/= holding onto guilt. Yes, AC/C was about Cloud getting over his guilt. This doesn't mean though that he can't still hold a candle for Aerith. Let's say, for argument's sake, in FF7 he did love Aerith and in AC/C pined for her and was still in mourning and felt guilty. Being absolved of those feelings and moving on to a life with Tifa doesn't mean though that the feelings he had for Aerith never existed and he never loved her. They did, and maybe they faded but they still existed. "Moving on" does not mean forgetting.

Nothing says that, in this hypothetical scenario where Cloud loved/s Aerith, that moving on with his life means NOT loving her anymore. What it *does* mean is letting go of his guilt and despair for her. You can of course, love someone even after they die and still move on with a normal life and fall in love with someone else. Assuming he did/does love Aerith, that in no way invalidates Cloti because he's obviously with Tifa now, isn't he?

 

[Joker]

Guilt for what, exactly? -__-

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Guilt for what, exactly? -__-

I'm sure standing there with a blank look on his face watching Sephiroth impale Aerith two feet in front of him is sure to make him feel a little guilty that he couldn't save her. Same reason he feels guilty for Zack. Cloud has a nasty habit of being incapacitated and standing by helpless while those close to him drop dead.

 

[Dashell]

Guilt for what, exactly? -__-

oh my god... and you guys say I'M a troll...

 

[Joker]

Yes, it couldn't possibly be a serious question as to how the fuck he blames himself for Sephiroth running her through with his sword. He shows up, ninja's her, then runs off - what the fuck is he supposed to do in that situation to save her life?

Same thing for Zack - he was suffering from fucking Mako poisoning and could barely hold his head up, much less save Zack.

 

[RawrieStrife]

Cloud has a thing for blaming himself for stuff nobody blames him for.
I don't know why but probably because he was the only one there when Zack and Aeris died.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'm a quick learner.

I agree on all the points you made, Ryu. Bringing up FFT was in rebuttal to people using KH canon as evidence. That Nomura quote that everyone is shitting themselves over is about KH, I've learned.

I saw that, yes.

FHS already alluded to a television ad, and I assume it's already been refuted, but the 'Love that can never be' from this ad probably counts as much as soda cans, KH, or fanfiction. I'll move on.

It counts as much as the FFVIII ad that says it's about a man trying to win the heart of the woman he loves, when the reverse is true.
In general, not just for FF, but period, marketing counts for shit. I have an original SW poster on my wall, and I can number off the lies.

Again, the point that she's dead doesn't hold a lot of weight in this thread, as it's not so much about who wins Cloud in the end, it's who he really loves. It could be argued that while he has feelings enough to fuck Tifa, his heart truly belonged to Aeris. I don't think that's the case, but opinion isn't valid here either. [insert macro]

Under a strict SOD perspective, that's quite valid, but I was trying to look at it from the narrative perspective, the 'telling a story' explanation, to counter the 'it was ambiguously told ergo no answer' concept.

A fair point, and the former is a truthful assertion.

Loving Aerith =/= holding onto guilt. Yes, AC/C was about Cloud getting over his guilt. This doesn't mean though that he can't still hold a candle for Aerith. Let's say, for argument's sake, in FF7 he did love Aerith and in AC/C pined for her and was still in mourning and felt guilty. Being absolved of those feelings and moving on to a life with Tifa doesn't mean though that the feelings he had for Aerith never existed and he never loved her. They did, and maybe they faded but they still existed. "Moving on" does not mean forgetting.

Nothing says that, in this hypothetical scenario where Cloud loved/s Aerith, that moving on with his life means NOT loving her anymore. What it *does* mean is letting go of his guilt and despair for her. You can of course, love someone even after they die and still move on with a normal life and fall in love with someone else. Assuming he did/does love Aerith, that in no way invalidates Cloti because he's obviously with Tifa now, isn't he?

No, though it always has the bitter taste of the 'victory in defeat tactic' of declaring he's only with Tifa cuz Aerith died, etc. etc. etc.

Also, it always seems- to me anyways- there is the overt or implicit add on to the 'He loved Aerith and Tifa' arguements that 'but he loved Aerith more.' Present company excluded, but I have seen the argument many a time, and it 90+% of the time seems to come back to that, and even if he did fall in love with Aerith, it really just makes no sense to say there was 'more' for the lady he knew a couple of weeks compared to the longer than decade fixation.

Yes, it couldn't possibly be a serious question as to how the fuck he blames himself for Sephiroth running her through with his sword. He shows up, ninja's her, then runs off - what the fuck is he supposed to do in that situation to save her life?

Same thing for Zack - he was suffering from fucking Mako poisoning and could barely hold his head up, much less save Zack.

That's exactly it. Guilt for being powerless to help.
Utterly stupid, rationally. Happens all the time.
Survivor's guilt.

 

[Ite]

First of all, what Drake said last page. That. Verbatim.

... I was trying to look at it from the narrative perspective, the 'telling a story' explanation, to counter the 'it was ambiguously told ergo no answer' concept.

Literature does not always have to be cut and dry. I think that FFVII's lasting power comes from its ability to be interpreted and enjoyed from many perspectives. I think that legitimate romance is alluded to with both pairings, and that that's as far as it was originally intended to go, everything beyond that was up for personal speculation -- especially since it was an RPG.

No, though it always has the bitter taste of the 'victory in defeat tactic' of declaring he's only with Tifa cuz Aerith died, etc. etc. etc.

Also, it always seems- to me anyways- there is the overt or implicit add on to the 'He loved Aerith and Tifa' arguements that 'but he loved Aerith more.' Present company excluded, but I have seen the argument many a time, and it 90+% of the time seems to come back to that, and even if he did fall in love with Aerith, it really just makes no sense to say there was 'more' for the lady he knew a couple of weeks compared to the longer than decade fixation.

Ryu, your beef with it seems to come from idiotic fanboys abusing that logic, not the argument itself.

That's exactly it. Guilt for being powerless to help.
Utterly stupid, rationally. Happens all the time.
Survivor's guilt.

My issue with this is that he gets over this in game, by remembering Zack, telling the truth and then finishing what Aeris started. I felt like at the end of FFVII, he has come to peace with his past. I was surprised as hell when I saw AC/C until I read somewhere that Geostigma caused all of this distress. That made me feel better, until I realized that I watched a movie that was essentially about an emo disease.

 

[Dashell]

My issue with this is that he gets over this in game

When?

 

[Ite]

"But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more. I'm going to live my life without pretending." This is evidence that he has come to terms with what happened to his mind in relation to Zack. Zack's role in FFVII is extremely small.

"I'm sorry... Aeris. I should have figured this out sooner. ...You left us without saying a word... It was all so sudden, so I couldn't think... That's why it took so long for me to find out... But, Aeris... I understand now. Aeris... I'll do the rest." That sounds like a bad translation of a guy overcoming his Survivor's guilt by finishing what she set out to do.

The main argument in defense of Cloud's depression in AC/C is that he has had two years to basically relapse, but I think that's a weak argument. It might be realistic, but in terms of storytelling it's lazy. Nobody wants to watch a trilogy in which the same thing happens three times in a row.

 

[Dashell]

Have you read Case of Tifa? Because that should answer when Cloud started to feel guilty and what not.

 

[Ite]

Nope. I'm on it.

 

[Celes Chere]

Drake that link is actually broken, try this.

LOL YOU BITCH. Thanks God for the "prevent this page from creating popups" button.

Also - I CLOSED THE PAGE WHY IS THERE STILL SINGING

Yes, it couldn't possibly be a serious question as to how the fuck he blames himself for Sephiroth running her through with his sword. He shows up, ninja's her, then runs off - what the fuck is he supposed to do in that situation to save her life?

Same thing for Zack - he was suffering from fucking Mako poisoning and could barely hold his head up, much less save Zack.

Because it's Cloud, lol. Even though Cloud says he wants to be forgiven and Aerith says "By who?" he still does not take the hint. Even when his friends are constantly supporting him, and Tifa is teaching him how to appreciate life, he still blames himself. He's still childish in many ways, even in AC when he's definitely a grown adult. It takes the help of Aerith and Tifa/Vincent (mostly) for him to even TRY.

In any case, I don't blame Cloud for his guilt, though I do think he was being a moron at some points, which is why Tifa had to knock some sense into him. He really needed the push, he needed to realize that Denzel was winning more manly points than he was.

However- moving on, never blamed Cloud for feeling bad. First he had to watch his best friend risk his life and all he could do was watch. Cloud may not have been able to move or speak, but he could still feel and see. Can you imagine how horrible it would be to watch your best friend love interest die and being powerless to stop it? It fucked him in the head! I'd be fucked in the head too if that happened to me.

And to rub salt in the wound, he meets an amazing girl like Aerith whom he says he will protect. He fails at it, is powerless to save yet another person, and has to watch yet another person die before his eyes. Now, no one blames him for it but of course he blames himself. That's the natural reaction. There is no way a human being would NOT feel guilty after something like that, you know?

 

[RawrieStrife]

I'd be more freaked out than guilty if someone died before my eyes..

 

[Joker]

So basically Cloud is Bella Swan =/



And there's a difference between being 'powerless to save someone' in surprise attack circumstances, and failing to save them when you KNOW they're about to be killed/taken hostage/whatever. One of them has a genuine reason to feel guilty, and one of them is shit. Although 'unable to protect her' would fit...except she fucking RAN OFF ON HER OWN SO IT'S HER OWN FUCKING FAULT.

No matter how you look at it, it's stupid and you know it.

And that's a cheap shot, making me think of that. <<
REPORTED

 

[Celes Chere]

*blinkblink* I don't get how it's stupid to feel guilty that you were powerless to help your friends.

But okay.

 

[Zee]

except she fucking RAN OFF ON HER OWN SO IT'S HER OWN FUCKING FAULT.

It's been pointed out before, but maybe you need a reminder that a possessed Cloud had just beaten the shit out of her. There's no way she would have been safe around him after that.

 

[Son Goku]

It`s funny when a "outsider" mocks about Cloud, but then maybe he`s just more objective. Even Yuffie said "That Cloud's a royal pain in the ass".

a possessed Cloud had just beaten the shit out of her.

Well, that was still not the reason for "running off her own".

 

[Ryushikaze]

First of all, what Drake said last page. That. Verbatim.

Literature does not always have to be cut and dry. I think that FFVII's lasting power comes from its ability to be interpreted and enjoyed from many perspectives. I think that legitimate romance is alluded to with both pairings, and that that's as far as it was originally intended to go, everything beyond that was up for personal speculation -- especially since it was an RPG.

I fail to see how 'it was an RPG' emphasizes it being up to personal expectation.
In any case, narratively speaking, dead and alive are not equal in the slightest. To suggest a true romance for, and especially with as some suggest- you need to devote an amount of narrative effort to hammering such home, far beyond what is needed with living couples. And you really ought never to emphasize the living option, since that will take away the focus on the dead person, making whatever romance they had while alive seem hollow- unless you take big steps to slam the romantic pining for the deceased in our face. Inu-Yasha and Kikyo is the sort of level here.

Ryu, your beef with it seems to come from idiotic fanboys abusing that logic, not the argument itself.

Yes, that is largely what I was getting at. Fangirls have soured me with their idiocy in this regard.
Now, there is also insufficient evidence to support the 'loved them both' idea beyond Cloud being attracted- and again, who wouldn't be- to both. They knew each other two weeks, Cloud was a headcase, and in his heart of hearts, his subconscious, his core of being, we see Tifa repeatedly, nothing of Aerith.

My issue with this is that he gets over this in game, by remembering Zack, telling the truth and then finishing what Aeris started. I felt like at the end of FFVII, he has come to peace with his past. I was surprised as hell when I saw AC/C until I read somewhere that Geostigma caused all of this distress. That made me feel better, until I realized that I watched a movie that was essentially about an emo disease.

It's more complicated than that. Cloud feels guilty, not specifically that Aerith and Zack died, but that he lived, that he got to be happy. And the happier he feels, the guiltier he feels. So he feels he needs to do something to work for his sins- taking in Denzel, trying to find the cure to Geostigma, when he gets the disease himself, which he takes as being punishment, that he had failed to atone. Its why he was seeking forgiveness. So he could be cured. So he could return home.

"But I can't remain trapped in an illusion any more. I'm going to live my life without pretending." This is evidence that he has come to terms with what happened to his mind in relation to Zack. Zack's role in FFVII is extremely small.

"I'm sorry... Aeris. I should have figured this out sooner. ...You left us without saying a word... It was all so sudden, so I couldn't think... That's why it took so long for me to find out... But, Aeris... I understand now. Aeris... I'll do the rest." That sounds like a bad translation of a guy overcoming his Survivor's guilt by finishing what she set out to do.

The main argument in defense of Cloud's depression in AC/C is that he has had two years to basically relapse, but I think that's a weak argument. It might be realistic, but in terms of storytelling it's lazy. Nobody wants to watch a trilogy in which the same thing happens three times in a row.

FF7's section wasn't about getting over guilt, it was about realizing there was hope. He hadn't had time to blame himself or think about anything in FF7, the whole thing happened pretty much at a machine gun pace.

So basically Cloud is Bella Swan =/

No, because he felt bad about being useless, and he's not ACTUALLY useless.

[qutoe]And there's a difference between being 'powerless to save someone' in surprise attack circumstances, and failing to save them when you KNOW they're about to be killed/taken hostage/whatever. One of them has a genuine reason to feel guilty, and one of them is shit. Although 'unable to protect her' would fit...except she fucking RAN OFF ON HER OWN SO IT'S HER OWN FUCKING FAULT.

No matter how you look at it, it's stupid and you know it.[/QUOTE]

No one's saying it's not stupid. Just that it happens. It happens to Soldiers in the real world.

It's been pointed out before, but maybe you need a reminder that a possessed Cloud had just beaten the shit out of her. There's no way she would have been safe around him after that.

Him, no. The rest of the gang, sure. If she'd taken Red, Cid, Cait (even if he does bring ShinRa along with him), Yuffie, Vincent, Barret or Tifa (though she might have stayed to make sure Cloud was okay instead), Sephypoo might have had a tougher time of getting himself into position initially.