Michael Bay's TMNT film...s

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Yup. He's officially playing Shredder.

WELP.

I've got one reason I can't not see this film now.



X :neo:

While he may be a good actor it is just another unfortunate case of Hollywood whitewashing though, both the 1990 and 1991 films were able to at least cast Asian American actors for The Shredder's physical portrayal.

People are going to be as peeved with this as they were with Cumberbatch portraying Khan if not moreso.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
While he may be a good actor it is just another unfortunate case of Hollywood whitewashing though, both the 1990 and 1991 films were able to at least cast Asian American actors for The Shredder's physical portrayal.

People are going to be as peeved with this as they were with Cumberbatch portraying Khan if not moreso.

It's not like Danny Woodburn is any more Asian as Splinter, who's supposed to be the Japanese Hamato Yoshi as a counterpart to Oroku Saki. Also, the very white ginger April O-Neil is now the dark-haired and tan Megan Fox, so it looks like they're pretty committed to saying, "fuck you" to any character design, but that's not without precedent:

Let's also remember that the '80s animated Ninja Turtles white washed characters Baxter Stockman the black scientist became a white guy, and April went from being his assistant to being a reporter, which is why all of the incarnations since then have Baxter Stockman as a black scientist and April somehow also involved in sciencey-type stuff.

I just completely and totally fail to see the point of this film, when we've got the 2012 series that is hands down the best Ninja Turtles ever, and this is departing from basically everything that makes it good, and picking up all of the pointless shit that everything else left behind.

Case is point, pretty much no one who likes Ninja Turtles gives a fuck about April being a reporter anymore, since that's been dead for the 2k3 series, the animated movie, and the 2012 series, but there's apparently a HUGE bit of the story and cast that seem to be focusing in on that for this film.


My sentiment was basically that if they're going to make it anyway, at least it looks like there'll be one performance that I'll actually enjoy, even if (like everything else so far), it doesn't match up with anything that seems like it'll play out well for the film's story.



X :neo:
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
It's not like Danny Woodburn is any more Asian as Splinter, who's supposed to be the Japanese Hamato Yoshi as a counterpart to Oroku Saki. Also, the very white ginger April O-Neil is now the dark-haired and tan Megan Fox, so it looks like they're pretty committed to saying, "fuck you" to any character design, but that's not without precedent:
Danny Woodburn is likely only (I assume) going to be I assume voicing and doing motion capture for Splinter not playing his human form of Hamato Yoshi, the former is a much different situation and not really on screen whitewashing.

Let's also remember that the '80s animated Ninja Turtles white washed characters Baxter Stockman the black scientist became a white guy, and April went from being his assistant to being a reporter, which is why all of the incarnations since then have Baxter Stockman as a black scientist and April somehow also involved in sciencey-type stuff.

I just completely and totally fail to see the point of this film, when we've got the 2012 series that is hands down the best Ninja Turtles ever, and this is departing from basically everything that makes it good, and picking up all of the pointless shit that everything else left behind.

Case is point, pretty much no one who likes Ninja Turtles gives a fuck about April being a reporter anymore, since that's been dead for the 2k3 series, the animated movie, and the 2012 series, but there's apparently a HUGE bit of the story and cast that seem to be focusing in on that for this film.


My sentiment was basically that if they're going to make it anyway, at least it looks like there'll be one performance that I'll actually enjoy, even if (like everything else so far), it doesn't match up with anything that seems like it'll play out well for the film's story.



X :neo:
Baxter Stockman being whitewashed in the 1980s cartoon was problematic as well. Also casting a white actor in a originally minority character role is not the same as doing the reverse, to quote an argument from tumblr (specifically talking about Nikolaj Coster-Waldau being cast as the Egyptian God Horus):
The problem with the “good actor” argument is that you are implying that there wasn’t a single actor of the appropriate ethnicity who could play the character as well as this guy, which is pretty racist when you think about it.

Also, saying it’s ok for Nikolaj Coster-Waldau to play a black character because Idris Elba and Tadanobu Asano played previously white characters is a false equivalency. There is a real lack of major roles for non-white actors, so handing some of the few roles that are actually available to them to white actors on the pretext of the white actors being better is racist bullcrap and needs to stop. Two POC guys playing minor white characters- and how much flack did Idris Elba in particular get for that?- is not even vaguely equivalent to yet another white guy getting the lead role, despite the character being POC. It’s just another example of the systematic whitewashing that POC face.
http://aefled.tumblr.com/post/52877361093/nikolaj-coster-waldau-to-play-horus-in-gods-of-egypt

Also yeah, Bay is screwing up a lot of the TMNT mythos, I just feel whitewashing should be called out when it occurs regardless of the potential quality of a film..
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Danny Woodburn is likely only (I assume) going to be I assume voicing and doing motion capture for Splinter not playing his human form of Hamato Yoshi, the former is a much different situation and not really on screen whitewashing.

See, I ALMOST understand this, but with digital pushing SO VERY HARD to just being the new prosthetic makeup, where do you draw the line? Sure Splinter is a mutant, but he's still a mutant of a Japanese Man & a Rat. If all of William Fichtner's performance was translated into a digital version of a burn-scarred and fully armored version of shredder, whose whole face we never see, is it still whitewashing any more than casting Danny Woodburn as splinter, who is essentially just a Japanese man in a half-human half-rat suit?

Baxter Stockman being whitewashed in the 1980s cartoon was problematic as well. Also casting a white actor in a originally minority character role is not the same as doing the reverse, to quote an argument from tumblr (specifically talking about Nikolaj Coster-Waldau being cast as the Egyptian God Horus):

http://aefled.tumblr.com/post/52877361093/nikolaj-coster-waldau-to-play-horus-in-gods-of-egypt

Totally aware of that, and apologies if I managed to sound like I was implying otherwise. I was really just stating that he seems to be whitewashing AND entirely disregarding character designs, not that doing one is the equivalent of the other.

Also yeah, Bay is screwing up a lot of the TMNT mythos, I just feel whitewashing should be called out when it occurs regardless of the potential quality of a film..

Dually noted and whitewashing is worth being called out, but I feel that Splinter's casting was deserving of this - if not even moreso. At least Shredder's been an Utrom in a suit before, (and that might be what's happening here what with them apparently pushing the alien origins really hard), but Splinter has ALWAYS been a Japanese man mutated with a Rat (with the exception of the film reversing that, but still keeping his Asian ties).

It just extra sucks, because even IF it's whitewashing, it's still the only element of the film I feel that I'll enjoy from what's been released about the film thus far (withholding ALL judgement on the Turtles themselves, because I know absolutely nothing about them).



X :neo:
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
The problem I have with a white dude playing Shredder is that, doesn't this fuck up their origins? Both he and Splinter are FROM Japan. Unless Shredder is no longer from Japan.

Or is Japan no longer 99% Asian (I'm totally making that number up, but you get my point)?
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
The problem I have with a white dude playing Shredder is that, doesn't this fuck up their origins? Both he and Splinter are FROM Japan. Unless Shredder is no longer from Japan.

Or is Japan no longer 99% Asian (I'm totally making that number up, but you get my point)?

Restating: In the 2k3 series, the Shredder is an Utrom (which is an alien squidbrain-looking species and technically not ANY race) within a powered armor suit, so at least there's SOME precedent for him not always being a Japanese dude. Splinter has ALWAYS been a Japanese guy who got mutated into a half-rat (aside from the live-action film that reversed that and make him Hamato Yoshi's pet rat who fused with a human - but was still Japanese in his portrayal).


X :neo:
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
See, I ALMOST understand this, but with digital pushing SO VERY HARD to just being the new prosthetic makeup, where do you draw the line? Sure Splinter is a mutant, but he's still a mutant of a Japanese Man & a Rat. If all of William Fichtner's performance was translated into a digital version of a burn-scarred and fully armored version of shredder, whose whole face we never see, is it still whitewashing any more than casting Danny Woodburn as splinter, who is essentially just a Japanese man in a half-human half-rat suit?

Totally aware of that, and apologies if I managed to sound like I was implying otherwise. I was really just stating that he seems to be whitewashing AND entirely disregarding character designs, not that doing one is the equivalent of the other.

Dually noted and whitewashing is worth being called out, but I feel that Splinter's casting was deserving of this - if not even moreso. At least Shredder's been an Utrom in a suit before, (and that might be what's happening here what with them apparently pushing the alien origins really hard), but Splinter has ALWAYS been a Japanese man mutated with a Rat (with the exception of the film reversing that, but still keeping his Asian ties).
The Splinter casting is not the same as the Shredder casting because when we see Splinter on screen we're not going to see a white dude or japanese dude, were going to see a big furry anthropomorphic rat whose expressions (if digital) will be directed by Woodburn. On screen presence wise Splinter will not be anymore white than Caesar from Rise of the Planet of the Apes is white. Splinter's "race" will be depicted by whoever plays him potential flashbacks and his mannerism (like how it is depicted in shows and the 1990s/2007 films).
Your hypothetical use Fichtner is basically a digital version of how Shredder was portrayed in the previous live action films (an Asian American man physically playing the Shredder while being voiced by a white man). So while it technically would not be white washing in that hypothetical, it would probably still get side-eyed if a studio did actually go out of its way to digitally create an Asian man to physically act as the Shredder as opposed to simply hiring one instead.
It just extra sucks, because even IF it's whitewashing, it's still the only element of the film I feel that I'll enjoy from what's been released about the film thus far (withholding ALL judgement on the Turtles themselves, because I know absolutely nothing about them).



X :neo:
Oh, I'm not telling you to not enjoy Fichtner's performance, I enjoyed Cumberbatch's performance as Khan. But one can enjoy something in story while still acknowledging its problematic meta elements.


Restating: In the 2k3 series, the Shredder is an Utrom (which is an alien squidbrain-looking species and technically not ANY race) within a powered armor suit, so at least there's SOME precedent for him not always being a Japanese dude. Splinter has ALWAYS been a Japanese guy who got mutated into a half-rat (aside from the live-action film that reversed that and make him Hamato Yoshi's pet rat who fused with a human - but was still Japanese in his portrayal).


X :neo:
Still, when the Utrom shredder had a non-armored human suit on, he was depicted as a Japanese, which was justified by him having living in Japan for centuries. Even then the Utrom Shredder retained his Japanese origins.
Actually the original Mirage comics and 2003 TV series have Splinter as Hamato Yoshi's pet as well not just the 1990 film, Yoshi and Splinter being two separate entities is actually the original origin.
Also the Splinter of the 1990 film was voiced by Kevin Clash, an African American voice actor.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Not to derail the topic ENTIRELY, but the more I've been thinking about this, the more I've been getting curious about at what point the race of an actor becomes important to the character that they're playing.

Obviously there's some point at which it becomes difficult to determine when it's applicable (not all costuming techniques have direct human translation, especially in the cases where it's used to make non-human characters), but digital enhancements and prosthetics seem to be getting us to a point where certain roles in largely CGI environments could be played without the audience knowing the race of the actor as well as they already do in animated shows, which made me start wondering if whitewashing is slowly becoming more about the actor who's playing them, or is it more about the adaptation of the character themselves into a realm that's attempting to connect with a "white audience"?

I'm bringing this up because it seems to me that Voice Acting is currently one of the most race and gender blind professions out there. Actors play different genders and races (or both) pretty frequently all across the spectrum. It really comes down to who manages to portray the true idea of the character the most accurately, regardless of their actual sex/race which is pretty damn cool.

In actual film, this is seen very differently, but with technology moving steadily towards the use of digital prosthetics and performance capture, I'm wondering if we aren't getting to a point where that's going to be possible in certain film mediums. For the sake of looking at this, let's start by assuming that a single portrayal of Shredder stays in full armor to the same extent that the most we ever see of Shredder's actual body is limited to only his eyes, kinda like this:

Shredder_Dave_Rapoza_TMNT.jpg



How does this translate in how acceptable it is between William Fichtner voice acting the role of an animated version of this Shredder, performance capturing a digitally rendered version of this Shredder, or performing the role of this same Shredder in a full costume on set? Same with Woodburn as Splinter.


Additionally, if it helps, I tried to break down all the different types of costuming used in media right now to work as a way to look at each of the different areas and think about the actors in them, and when race is potentially applicable in casting a role, and when it SHOULD be able to be ignored and when it shouldn't.


• Motion Capture: Actor/Stuntman providing movement for digital character (*usually non-speaking/non-human). (Xenomorphs, Predator, simple background characters/extras)

• Voice Acting: Actors providing vocals for an animated/digital character. (every animated show ever).

• Voice Acting & Motion Capture: Actor providing basic vocals and movement for a character. (many videogame performances).

• Performance Capture (Digital Prosthetics): Actor providing a complete performance for a character, including subtle nuances of expression. (*often non-human. Azog, Caesar, Golum, the Na'vi in Avatar)

• Full-Body Prosthetics: Same level of performance as Digital Prosthetics, but performance is occasionally muted. None of the actor's actual body is seen on screen. (*typically non-human. Abe Sapien, Pan, Greedo, Jabba, Godzilla, Prometheus Engineers)

• Heavy Makeup/Costume: Large levels of costuming, but some of the actor's actual body is still discernable. (Mystique, Hellboy, Judge Dredd, Robocop, some LotR Dwarves).

• Moderate Makeup/Costume: Largely natural appearance with minor modifications (LotR Elves, Klingons, Romulans)

• Standard Makeup/Costume: Anything you'd expect to see all of an actor's face, with minor prosthetic work for scars or other character-specific alterations like hair, etc.



Suffice to say, that I don't have an answer to this. I also don't think that ANY of this was considered before casting the roles for this film. I really just think that it's interesting food for thought the more I've been thinking about all the roles in the film, and the idea of acting in general. If anyone has some answers, I'd love to hear them.



X :neo:
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
I don't know how to respond to that article...

I suppose if he were some
military dude who turns into a monster
(which is my guess as to the premise) it's better than LOL WHITEWASHING THE NINJA
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
You know, I'm genuinely looking forward to this. William Fichtner, Megan Fox, the freakin' Ninja Turtles -- to hell with all of ya'll. =P

"The Legend of Chun-Li" was ass, though. Starting with the lead.
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
Next time they make a movie with Chun Li, can they finally cast a girl with muscular thighs? Please? Hollywood has failed to do this twice. Chun Li is supposed to be a freaking brick wall, not a skinny little twig.
 

Super Mario

IT'S A ME!
AKA
Jesse McCree. I feel like a New Man
Good visuals, but the plot may become inconsistent as Transformers. That's my only worry.
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
I'm liking the fact that the Turtles aren't completely naked anymore. Granted, I suppose their shells count as their clothing? But I like this.

Also, wtf Shredder looks freaky as hell. Scary...
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
I kinda like Shredder's design, and then again I find it a little try-hard... and a bit too Lord Zedd :monster:

Also, am I the only one who genuinely hates the turtles' designs? I see mostly good things being said but I find them very uncanny valley/generally horrid.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
I kinda like Shredder's design, and then again I find it a little try-hard... and a bit too Lord Zedd :monster:

I was trying to put my finger on what it looked like, and you totally got it for me.

Also, am I the only one who genuinely hates the turtles' designs? I see mostly good things being said but I find them very uncanny valley/generally horrid.

I... really don't like the way their mouths/noses are positioned forward all old-Planet of the Apes-like. It makes them seem too mammalian and not reptilian. It seems like it should be a bit wider and more naturally connected to the rest of their face and that'd fix the issue.

Aside from that, I think that their more Samurai-like armor is pretty cool, and the sort of junkyard-style design that they have suits their origins in the sewers well.

That being said, the designs are still more promising than what I'd been dreading we'd end up with. It's still a BIG uphill battle for me to care about these half as much as the 2012 series or the Ongoing IDW comic's version of the Turtles, because for me, those are the best versions of the turtles.


X :neo:
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
Oh the armor is fine, both in design and apparent origin/materials. And what you said about their snouts/beaks/whatevs is entirely true (the fact that these are the first TMNT designs I can think of with visible nostrils doesn't help either). But something about their torsos/waists really irks me. They look too humanoid from here. Too narrow here, too broad there, etc.
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
Also, am I the only one who genuinely hates the turtles' designs? I see mostly good things being said but I find them very uncanny valley/generally horrid.

Well, I do have to admit that I prefer their designs from the first two 80's movies more, however I don't exactly hate these new ones either. They fit in with current movie trends.


Wait wait wait wtf is that?

Is that what they are going to look like in the finished film? The looked better in that previous article...
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
Oh gods, why would you show me that? Haven't I been nauseated enough by this stupid stomach bug?
 
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