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[Cookie Monster]

And, are we making that report public or not?

 

[Tifabelle]

"Where, and if so, do we draw the line?"

Well one of the things I'd say in regards to some of the points you made is the return question "What kind of board to we want this to be?" Yeah we can all make jokes and whatnot, but this is also not the general cesspool that is the internet. I think that's why a lot of us feel comfortable here. It's loose enough to make jokes, but not so disturbing that we feel the need to go elsewhere for entertainment.

Actually, this is the main source of the debate; why take action on Ryu while politically incorrect jokes haven't seemed to be a major problem until now?

Except it's not sudden. Omega & Mako each got posts reported. And I'm sure there have been posts in the past regarding this kind of thing too. Ok sure, it just so happens that there are instances all around the same time.

Can't be helped, really, just who he is.

I'm sorry but I don't see "Ryu is just being Ryu" as an acceptable reason not to infract him. Because how about "L is just being L" or "Username is just being Username". It's not an excuse to not take action. Because well, he'll just do it again, so what's the point.

Thing is, we as staff (generally) fail to comprehend why someone would feel creeped out by Ryu, and thus we side with him.

You don't have to agree with a report to be objective though. And I'm not suggesting that you aren't because I actually think that for the most part you're one of the most objective mods here. But just saying, well none of us were offended by the post therefore it's fine is not the task that is given to you. If you want members to trust the staff, you can't dismiss something because you don't feel the same way.

removing Ryu from staff (again) is an option

I don't think anyone is asking for this. At least not for him making a joke, however much in poor taste it might have been. I'd say some of the other stuff was maybe not in good judgment as a mod, but certainly not for a bad joke.

so in that case it looks to us as if it's because it's Ryu, which feels like unjustly singling someone out over someone's opinion of that person. If that makes sense. See the problem we're having

Except he wasn't being singled out. Omega and Mako both had posts reported. You're saying it as if that because Rishi doesn't like Ryu that it's the only reason why she would be offended by Ryu's joke.

believes they can speak their mind in there

Speaking your mind and mocking & shit-talking members are two different things.

But because those opinions and the manner they're voiced in are not exactly politically correct or very "staff-like", if you will, they're not suitable for the public - and as such should remain behind closed doors, to prevent stuff like this from happening.

If you can't speak your mind without being rude, then something's wrong. If you feel like the way you speak about members is inappropriate for public consumption, then it's because you're aware it's inappropriate period. Moderators may have negative opinions of one member or another, but to say blatantly insulting things on the forum behind closed doors is out of line. Sorry, but it is. You wanna talk with your friends about how so-and-so is a jerk that's one thing, but members of a forum shouldn't feel like it's being done on the forum.

Please explain to me what's shady about encouraging two members who have a disagreement or an issue between each other, to actually talk about it like civil, rationale human beings?

I'm not discouraging it. I'm saying that staff claimed that when something was a private matter between two members (ie: PM), then it wasn't their place to moderate. You can't tell members to report posts and tell them to PM the offender - it's sending mixed messages on what you want us to do.

And also, only ONE of the reporters was contacted.

So I pointed out the inconsistency within the context of that discussion how that was allowed to fly.

By joking that Rishi sits home and cries to Silence of the Lambs. Real appropriate. You couldn't say it the way you did above? Like I said above, you should be able to speak your mind and say things without being insulting to folks.

And just because I don't want you to feel singled out, yours was one example brought up in this thread, but it's not just you.

Again, I find it very interesting that someone amongst us seems more interested in vilifying and negatively portraying our methods of discussion than actually telling the truth of how we worked on the issue.

No one's attempting to villify you. Like I think everyone's aware of the fact that you guys don't sit there and only talk shit about people. But that doesn't excuse the fact that it does happen. And where people can't defend themselves by people who are supposed to have the forum's and its members' best interest at heart.

No, it was because the entire tone and content of his joke was different than the joke Omega made. His joke clearly referenced rape, Ryu's made no such mention of the issue.

Just kidnapping and brainwashing someone into a relationship.

If I recall correctly, Ryu apologized to one offended member regarding said joke. If it was in regards to an infraction, then that is what we were discussing. Because again. Omega's joke and Ryu's joke were not the same. Both offended people, but the content of said offending jokes were vastly different.

Yes, ONE offended member. I guess I didn't see Omega's joke and Ryu's joke as that dissimilar.

No he has not been infracted because there is no rule we have that states one cannot tell really bad and/or tasteless jokes. That's why we said that such an issue is a personal one that needs to be discussed.

And as far as I know, there's no rule against making rape jokes either. Yet Omega was still infracted.

This, we have a tentacle rape joke nearly every day of the week here and nobody bats an eyelid.

I'm pretty sure Ryu has made tentacle rape jokes before and not been reported for them.

Now, if Ryu or anyone else made a joke that someone was offended by, and that person explicitly said I find that offensive, but then they persisted then that would fall under the umbrella of trolling/harrasment and/or flaming/insulting.

The thing is that Ryu knows that his jokes offend certain people on the board - Rishi being one of them. It's happened in the past.

Of course by this same logic Omega shouldn't have been infracted either - he said something tasteless that offended someone, but it wasn't directed at anyone in particular and he wasn't persistent with it (quoting Rishi out of context was another issue though)

I agree with this. Although I'm not sure quoting someone out of context is against the rules either? People have posted portions of private convos in the What Makes Your Day Thread (or Ruins Your Day for that matter) plenty of times before.

For the record, I felt that both Omega & Ryu's posts were not really kosher. I didn't report either of them, but then I generally don't report anything. And I didn't feel that Mako's joke was offensive at all, but other people did. And I also raise an eyebrow at tentacle rape jokes, despite the fact that I have partaken. (you can look at yop's sig to see that I'm not one of the people that "gets it". )

Also realize that Omega's joke threatened Rishi with rape, a forum member. Ryu's joke was about Jennifer Lawrence.

WHOA. Road, he quoted Rishi saying that. (and oh I just read the other posts so nm)
Even though I get why something directed a a member would be a more serious situation (and would certainly agree with that assessment), I don't think that should completely dismiss a joke made in reference to a celebrity or fictional character if it makes people uncomfortable.

 

[Ⓐaron]

And, are we making that report public or not?

If you're talking about making the whole threads public? No. Definitely not. I have no problem making just the reports public, but the discussion in both post reports devolved into a lot of things completely irrelevant to the posts or their reports, which are probably not best revealed publicly. If you want to just screenshot the post reports or something and post those that would probably be fine, as long as the people who made the reports are fine with it.

 

[Octo]

I agree with this. Although I'm not sure quoting someone out of context is against the rules either? People have posted portions of private convos in the What Makes Your Day Thread (or Ruins Your Day for that matter) plenty of times before.

Sorry, I didn't meant to insinutate it was against the rules, I was just acknowleging what Omega said that it had upset Rishi that she'd been quoted out of context.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Even though I get why something directed a a member would be a more serious situation (and would certainly agree with that assessment), I don't think that should completely dismiss a joke made in reference to a celebrity or fictional character if it makes people uncomfortable.

But, we weren't dismissing it. It was brought up that if we infracted Ryu for that, it could/would set a new precedent, since the joke wasn't really about Rishi, more so Jennifer Lawrence. That has lead to some 11 pages of arguing. Ryu did not violate any rules, where Omega did, or so we thought originally.

 

[Tifabelle]

Was Omega's infraction retracted?

 

[Cookie Monster]

No. Nothing has really been going since this thread erupted. Most of our attention is here now.

 

[Strangelove]

I'm sorry but I don't see "Ryu is just being Ryu" as an acceptable reason not to infract him. Because how about "L is just being L" or "Username is just being Username". It's not an excuse to not take action. Because well, he'll just do it again, so what's the point.

can we just

for a second here

can we just

this was the WHOLE BIG MASSIVE THING THAT STRETCHED ACROSS TWO FORUMS BECAUSE IT BROKE THIS ONE

that this is ryu and how he is

but it still caused a problem, and unless his computer reads his mind he still has to type and press the submit post button, and all this was made clear as day last time and yet it happens again

this is the part that i get stuck on, seriously. that this exploded into a big thing in the past (on more than one occasion, if i think about it), yet the blame seems to be shuffling from the guy who caused it, and several times in the forum's history, to everyone else and their sensitivities

 

[Ⓐaron]

Was Omega's infraction retracted?

We're considering retracting it (and Mako apparently thought, erroneously, this had already been done in one of his earlier posts), but as yet no consensus has been reached (my guess is people are too distracted by other forums issues to give their assent to retracting it). For whatever it's worth I'm leaning towards retracting it, if only because it was issued because we thought he was threatening looney when this turns out not to have been the case. If we later decide that tasteless jokes can be retroactively warned then we can put points back on his account or something.

 

[Ⓐaron]

can we just

for a second here

can we just

this was the WHOLE BIG MASSIVE THING THAT STRETCHED ACROSS TWO FORUMS BECAUSE IT BROKE THIS ONE

that this is ryu and how he is

but it still caused a problem, and unless his computer reads his mind he still has to type and press the submit post button, and all this was made clear as day last time and yet it happens again

this is the part that i get stuck on, seriously. that this exploded into a big thing in the past (on more than one occasion, if i think about it), yet the blame seems to be shuffling from the guy who caused it, and several times in the forum's history, to everyone else and their sensitivities

For what it's worth, the VERY TWO FIRST POSTS IN LOONEY'S REPORT THREAD were me telling Ryu that the post was a stupid idea and that he shouldn't have made it. But "making stupid posts" is not currently against the rules, nor is "making offensive jokes". That is I think where the problem comes from. Should there be something to prevent people who don't want to see offensive jokes from seeing them? If this many people have a problem with this issue, then probably. But I mean, we can tell Ryu that the posts were stupid for as long as we want - and they were stupid - but I mean, I'm not sure what we're supposed to do beyond that. I've read the entire thread, and I'm still not even clear on that part.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Matter of fact, I'm retracting Omega's infraction now.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm not discouraging it. I'm saying that staff claimed that when something was a private matter between two members (ie: PM), then it wasn't their place to moderate. You can't tell members to report posts and tell them to PM the offender - it's sending mixed messages on what you want us to do.

And also, only ONE of the reporters was contacted.

That's why I stated that post reports are best done for posts that are clearly in violation of the rules. They should not report posts for issues of just being offended or having a personal issue with someone that doesn't break the rules.

By joking that Rishi sits home and cries to Silence of the Lambs. Real appropriate. You couldn't say it the way you did above? Like I said above, you should be able to speak your mind and say things without being insulting to folks.

Like I said. I use hyperbole and excessive swearing when comfortable and amongst my peers/co-workers/friends. If I knew my words would be parsed and attempted to use against me, rest assured I would use much more politically correct language. It's quite easy to use someone's words in private against them outside of the context of the conversation. And leaving out the apology that was stated afterwards.

And just because I don't want you to feel singled out, yours was one example brought up in this thread, but it's not just you.

Thanks, but don't feel the need to spare my feelings. I know my words were over the top and not the nicest thanks to Tennyo's intervention and statement of the fact. What I take offense are people here trying to use said words out of context and portray my fellow staffers and myself as something that we are not. If one were to look in the private conversations of every person here, I'm sure they'd find questionable content that would look negative outside of its original context. Such behavior and attempts at instigating conflict are immature and low brow.

No one's attempting to villify you. Like I think everyone's aware of the fact that you guys don't sit there and only talk shit about people. But that doesn't excuse the fact that it does happen. And where people can't defend themselves by people who are supposed to have the forum's and its members' best interest at heart.

There is no shit-talking, and you portraying it as such is a falsehood. We may not be speaking politically correct, but we are not just behind closed doors insulting and slagging members instead of debating the issues at hand. It get heated, people speak out while taking things personally and that results in things being said that outside of the context of conversation would look harsher than they mean. You may not call it an attempt at vilification but those of us who have been painted by such a brush can't help but see it that way. Funny how none of the positive or helpful posts on the subject never got aired out or "leaked" by said informant.

Just kidnapping and brainwashing someone into a relationship.

Yes, that's exactly what was the core of the joke. Any sort of joke involving love potions, magic, or hell, encompassing any sort of reference to Looney Toons and Pepe Le Pew could reference said content. I again do not see how Omega's joke and Ryu's are anywhere near equitable. One's an explicit mention of rape referring to a forum member. One is brainwashing a celebrity in an over the top fantastic sense to love someone. Which bear in mind, isn't even possible in the first place.

Yes, ONE offended member. I guess I didn't see Omega's joke and Ryu's joke as that dissimilar.

And as far as I know, there's no rule against making rape jokes either. Yet Omega was still infracted.

As I said before, it was infracted under the rule for trolling/insulting another member. What member did Ryu insult?

The thing is that Ryu knows that his jokes offend certain people on the board - Rishi being one of them. It's happened in the past.

Then this is something that Ryu and Rishi seriously need to get to the bottom of because again. There is no rule here I am aware of, that states that if a certain member has creeped out another, they are hereby banned from ever telling black humor jokes on this forum ever again. I was also unaware that Ryu was under censorship and blacklisted in the way he could joke.

Rishi has every right to be offended, and no one is undermining or questioning if she was. But to expect us to moderate that post under that assumption alone is impossible and too subjective. All we can do is mediate and hope an actual resolution between the personal issues of her and Ryu can be done and this does not happen again. Ryu did not break any rules. When you report a post to us, we look to see if any rules were broken, why, and what we need to do (if anything) to ensure it doesn't happen again.

Personal disputes and issues regarding offense of a non-rule breaking nature are better dealt with through PM, the feedback forum or through some other channel. Sending it through the post report will likely confuse and make us examine it as a rule breaking offense. That's why it took so long.

 

[Tifabelle]

No. Nothing has really been going since this thread erupted. Most of our attention is here now.

We're considering retracting it (and Mako apparently thought, erroneously, this had already been done in one of his earlier posts), but as yet no consensus has been reached (my guess is people are too distracted by other forums issues to give their assent to retracting it).

Fair enough.

 

[Strangelove]

For what it's worth, the VERY TWO FIRST POSTS IN LOONEY'S REPORT THREAD were me telling Ryu that the post was a stupid idea and that he shouldn't have made it. But "making stupid posts" is not currently against the rules, nor is "making offensive jokes". That is I think where the problem comes from. Should there be something to prevent people who don't want to see offensive jokes from seeing them? If this many people have a problem with this issue, then probably. But I mean, we can tell Ryu that the posts were stupid for as long as we want - and they were stupid - but I mean, I'm not sure what we're supposed to do beyond that. I've read the entire thread, and I'm still not even clear on that part.

I'm not going to be helpful and offer a solution because I don't have one. But I feel like discussion about what the rules should be distracts from the root cause of this, not that I don't think the other discussion isn't one worth having.

Ryu said something stupid to the wrong person, which happened in the past. Was a huge deal that went on through several threads on different forums. And yet it happened again. Which makes it look like no lessons were learnt from before.

Which might just be what I'm seeing a problem with here, I don't know.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'm not going to be helpful and offer a solution because I don't have one. But I feel like discussion about what the rules should be distracts from the root cause of this, not that I don't think the other discussion isn't one worth having.

Ryu said something stupid to the wrong person, which happened in the past. Was a huge deal that went on through several threads on different forums. And yet it happened again. Which makes it look like no lessons were learnt from before.

No, hito. This situation is not the same. The previous situation involved a terribly timed joke that made a member believe their photos were being saved and distributed by a mod when they wanted them explicitly deleted. And these were mature photos of said member.

This is a bad joke that broke no rules whatsoever. The previous definitely is an insult towards said member and clearly trolling of the worst kind. It was not only stupid, it was insulting.

The situation at hand here is a personal matter that at best requires a sincere apology and open dialogue between the two so that there can be an understanding so something like this doesn't happen again, and no assumptions of bad faith between each other detracts from either being able to post freely here.

Equating them as being the same is not true.

 

[Tifabelle]

Funny how none of the positive or helpful posts on the subject never got aired out or "leaked" by said informant.

Actually, they have. Just not in light of the recent event.

One's an explicit mention of rape referring to a forum member.

You keep saying that when it's already been discussed that it wasn't in reference to Rishi, but a quote by Rishi. In which case (in the point you made following this) the original reason for his infraction is moot. Omega didn't insult Rishi, neither did Ryu. But she was offended by both.

Then this is something that Ryu and Rishi seriously need to get to the bottom of because again. There is no rule here I am aware of, that states that if a certain member has creeped out another, they are hereby banned from ever telling black humor jokes on this forum ever again. I was also unaware that Ryu was under censorship and blacklisted in the way he could joke.

Sometimes people just don't get along. And that's separate from the fact that Ryu KNOWS (and has stated such) that Rishi doesn't like him and is creeped out by him. So I have to seriously question WHY he would make a tasteless joke in response to her. (Especially considering that was one of the reasons given the last time he seriously offended someone.) Maybe he needs to be told not to do that with her anymore. And if it continues, then serious action needs to be taken. So you say to Rishi, yeah it was offensive but there's nothing we can do. But do you want members feeling uncomfortable visiting and posting on the forum? Several "dark jokes" have been reported before. Ryu's is not the first, and I doubt it will be the last.

 

[Octo]

Well, we have three options I guess:

1) Ryu and Rishi and anyone else who has been offended by him resolve their issues in a nice civil manner - not PM if people don't feel comfortable with that.

2) Ryu is given a list of members that he has to make doubly sure of not posting anything potentially offensive/provocative. Which is problematic in itself as there are no set rules of what is/isn't offensive, and when you're talking about personal opinion/judgement then mistakes are going to be made.

3) Liberal use of the ignore button, which in this case would have to be extended to mods.

?

Thats all I can come up with anyway.

 

[Ⓐaron]

One problem with extending the ignore list to mods is that infractions come in via the private message system and adding someone to your ignore list means you don't get their private messages. Which means that if someone gets a warning from an ignored mod, they won't know they've gotten it.

But I guess we could just say that's their problem. If you get banned because you ignored a mod and didn't know you were infracted, tough luck.

That's why I always wanted to disable ignore list for mods, though. I guess it would be possible to program an exception for infraction messages, but I suck at vB programming so someone else would have to do it.

 

[Cookie Monster]

The problem is that there's no communication. The way I see it, if a member finds anything offensive, they should report it. I can only speak for myself, but I want to know when there's problem, and I think staff should be aware of it as well. Does that necessarily mean action will be taken on the reported post? No. If it doesn't break the rules, we cannot be expected to act on it. If you want to change the rules, or add a rule, make the suggestion. But, realize communication is key. If someone has offended you, try speaking with them about it, and do it with some sense of civility. If you feel that you cannot speak with this person for whatever reason, then just know you're getting in the way of the deeper issue getting resolved. It's not up to staff to fix your personal problems.

 

[Makoeyes987]

You keep saying that when it's already been discussed that it wasn't in reference to Rishi, but a quote by Rishi. In which case (in the point you made following this) the original reason for his infraction is moot. Omega didn't insult Rishi, neither did Ryu. But she was offended by both.

I know that's not what the context of the post was, but that's what we saw and believed it to be, hence our immediate action.

Sometimes people just don't get along. And that's separate from the fact that Ryu KNOWS (and has stated such) that Rishi doesn't like him and is creeped out by him. So I have to seriously question WHY he would make a tasteless joke in response to her. (Especially considering that was one of the reasons given the last time he seriously offended someone.) Maybe he needs to be told not to do that with her anymore. And if it continues, then serious action needs to be taken. So you say to Rishi, yeah it was offensive but there's nothing we can do. But do you want members feeling uncomfortable visiting and posting on the forum? Several "dark jokes" have been reported before. Ryu's is not the first, and I doubt it will be the last.

Ask Ryu yourself. I can't speak to him in regards to that. And in regards to Rishi, I never said we couldn't do anything. We said there was no moderation action that we could do. But we're more than happy to mediate something that can allow some sort of resolution, apology and/or understanding about this.

But in regards to pen-to-paper referencing of the rules and infracting. No, that is not something actionable. We do not want members being uncomfortable, but we also don't want members expecting us to resolve every personal issue that comes their way, or censoring how people post. Likewise, we do not want to foster an atmosphere where the only way people resolve conflict is by using others as middlemen and reporting things rather than just being mature and talking to them as human beings.

 

[Octo]

Well, I don't think anyone should be able to ignore all the mods, so maybe just making sure that PM's and infractions are sent by a mod on the safe list would be a simpler option than having to code something?

It wouldn't be that hard to keep a list of who's ignored who would it?

 

[Strangelove]

No, hito. This situation is not the same. The previous situation involved a terribly timed joke that made a member believe their photos were being saved and distributed by a mod when they wanted them explicitly deleted. And these were mature photos of said member.

This is a bad joke that broke no rules whatsoever. The previous definitely is an insult towards said member and clearly trolling of the worst kind.

The situation at hand here is a personal matter that at best requires a sincere apology and open dialogue between the two so that there can be an understanding so something like this doesn't happen again, and no assumptions of bad faith between each other detracts from either being able to post freely here.

Equating them as being the same is not true.

Ryu saying something that other members have found offensive or creepy is something that has happened in the past, and it was what happened here again. To someone who Ryu himself already seems to have believed he was on bad terms with (unless that's something that he only came to believe after this started). I think there are similarities between them.

I'm not talking about rules or what formal punishments should be dealt out. I don't know if warnings or infractions or whatever would be the right thing to do. Just that, from the past events, he ought to have learnt to check his behaviour and comments towards certain people.

 

[Joker]

Whoa whoa whoa.

Not only was my infraction NOT for trolling/insulting (it was for inappropriate and disruptive behavior, which it was), there's not a reason to retract it. Like...at all. It was rightly deserved and there's a reason why I didn't fight it.

Secondly, this whole "we thought he was threatening Rishi" thing is a fallacious argument. Let's roll back a few months and look at the harassment thing with Tiff and Misty/Kobato. That was pretty bad and raised a lot of eyebrows over verbal harassment and flaming and so on. So somehow the correct response to thinking someone is THREATENING ANOTHER MEMBER WITH RAPE is to...infract them? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

And tbh all this reversal talk is making me think it's an end-around to doing something about the issue that multiple members seem to have with the behavior of another member who happens to be a moderator. Doesn't that fall under the "don't try to find or make loopholes" rule? I mean, Rishi has pretty much said that she's not coming back to the forum because of all of this - partially what I did, and partially what Ryu did, and partially how both of these things were handled by staff and their treatment of her and the other persons offended.

1) Ryu and Rishi and anyone else who has been offended by him resolve their issues in a nice civil manner - not PM if people don't feel comfortable with that.

see above - this won't happen because she's gone for good

 

[Ⓐaron]

We didn't think you were seriously threatening her with rape, but we though that was the essence of the joke behind your post. We didn't get that you were quoting her.

And I'm not really sure what loopholes Ryu's behaviour could be considered to be attempting to get around. As far as I know, making jokes doesn't currently fall afoul of any rules, even if they're stupid and offensive, and even if the person being quoted doesn't like the person making the jokes.

 

[Tifabelle]

Would it be possible for people to ignore a mod's posts but not their PMs?

Would you know (as mods) who is on someone's ignore list. Like say, if Road is on my ignore list, would he be aware of it? If so, then he would know not to be the person to infract or warn me for something because he'd know I wouldn't get the message.