PlayStation Vita (Sony Next Generation Portable)

[CK]

There's gonna have to be a lot of compression going on, because given the size of the thing, I can't see it having much storage space compared to a bluray.

You'd be surprised bro. I have a 32gb micro flash card. I don't know what size an ordinary SDHC would be though but i'd assume more.

And I might get one I dunno, have to see if there's any good games.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

So, to preface this, here are some clips from the LiveBlog of the Press Conference to reinforce what I'm talking about. (Note that Bashcraft has his own comments here and there, but they're pretty easy to distinguish).

Kaz Hirai:

Games on PlayStation Suite will work on NGP, too. That means that content that is for smart phones (PlayStation Suite) operate on the NGP. Hirai thinks this cross platform will offer new forms of entertainment. Hirai says wants to know with new creators. "This means that the content for PlayStation will be expanded" You can play downloadable PSP titles on the NGP.

That's all Kaz Hirai talking, and being the Sony Rep, he's selling it to the media. Now we'll move on to the game developers, who have better insight into the technical side of things.

Now, he's going to invite game creators onto the stage: Capcom, Koei, Konami, Sega, Epic and Activision.

4:09 - Now Takeuchi from Capcom:

"He wants to thank everyone for the success of monster hunter portable 3rd. They have sold 4 mill copies. He's talking about a downloadable version of Monster Hunter Portable 3rd. So he's going to show how it works on NGP. It will run on NGP. This is the first time he's seen it on a NGP, apparently. He says the game looks beautiful on NPG thanks to the OLED screen. "The stick feels great, you can quote me, It feels different from the stick on the PSP. It goes down further, it tilts. It'll be good for action games." Capcom is going to use its MT Framework, which is uses to make games, for NGP. It's called MT Mobile. He's showing Lost Planet on NGP, running in real time. It doesn't look as good as the PS3. It looks really, really good, and better than the PSP. But the polygons are blocky. Still, its's very impressive.

This is showing that, while it's not completely a mobile PS3, that the NGP is very capable of utilizing a large amount of the same raw data that they use for the PS3. While it does require some differences to port the game to NGP, hence Capcom using the MT Mobile framework for their games, it's proof that the gaming engine used has a bigger impact on the NGP's graphical performance, because of how the engine is translating for it, hence the difference in quality between the Lost Planet 2 demo shown above, and the MGS4 demo coming up in a little bit. Overall the development time is constantly mentioned to be very short, but some of that development differences is going to be built on how the engine is constructed, because of it's relation with the Operating System, but I'll get into that shortly.

4:17 - Now, Toshihiro Nagoshi is on the screen:

And it's yakuza! Yakuza 4 is being ported to NGP, it seems, "Everything can be transformed to NGP." They did it in a really short time. "I'm really excited to be developing something new for a networked gaming experience." The Yakuza 4 is a demo, it seems. It doesn't show like they are porting it, but just showing what it can do. How easy it is to port. He says of course titles will be ported, but games can be reborn on NGP with its new functionalities.

Again, this is a game developer talking about how porting the PS3 information to the NGP is so easy, and is being done in a very short time. (Though no indication on if it's running on the original or a mobile engine) This is the type of development that I was referring to. It's not requiring a great deal of effort or "dumbing down" to get the original PS3 game data to operate quite smoothly on the NGP. This goes to show why I was talking about the simultaneous development process being incredibly lightweight, because this is the reaction from the people who DO develop the games and know about the technical processes behind it.

4:27 - Now, Hideo Kojima is on stage, creator of Metal Gear:

"I don't have an announcement of a new title." MGS4 is shown running on NGP. It looks really good. Better than Lost Planet 2 did. ]This is pretty impressive looking. This is a test, like all the other clips. Snake is meeting MKII in the game, if you are familiar with it. "This game used the model data and environments from PS3, and it was exported directly to NGP. On NGP, we can enjoy the same quality as the PS3." He is talking about cloud computing and how he thinks it is the future. His focus is how cloud computing can add a new experience for players. He says the dream to play home console games outside on a portable (the same game) hasn't been realized yet. That's something he would like to do. So players could play a PS3 game at home, and then take that game outside on NGP. "This dream is going to come true in the near future. I am currently working on a new project for that dream." He says they'll present that title at E3.

This is clearly, and without any beating around the bush, talking about making a game for PS3 that can utilize the capabilities of the NGP to its fullest, while still being a competitive Console title. Essentially taking a console title, and letting you play it while away from your TV. This is why I was saying that your comment about, "The whole point of the draw of handhelds is they can produce games faster with decent quality as opposed to consoles." was a misconception when talking about the NGP, because it's looking to do things that other Portable systems have previously been incapable of. I believe that's why they're opting for the working title of NGP, rather than PSP2, because they want to indicate that the idea for what a portable system is, and is capable of is changing.

4:35 - Tim Sweeny is on stage:

The screen shows a large medieval environment, there are knights roaming about and its snowing. This seems to be a tech demo. Now, they are showing Dungeon Defenders, a game developed for the PS3 by Trendy Entertainment, but was moved to the NGP in a very very short time. It was developed using Epic Games' Unreal Engine.

4:44 - Hirai sounds like he is wrapping it up. He is talking about the chemistry between the PS3 and NGP.

I've read that operating systems aren't as important as the game engine when it comes to development. It's the framework and backbone of the game system and all of its assets. That said, Epic stated that developing for the Iphone using the UE3 isn't that different from the 360 and PC. I think this was said about Infinity Blade was it?

The game engine is important, because you can build an engine that will operate similiarly across different Operating Systems, with minimal effort, and that allows for faster development time for multi-platform. Essentially different operationg systems is WHY aa more versatile game engine effects development. The engine is how the game program interacts with the Operating System, and the more versatile the Game engine, the less effort has to be put into translating the engine's information for the OS to accept. My point is that while that's something to consider, it's got much less impact in the PS3 to NGP relationship, because the systems' primary differences are in hardware, and that's much closer to a Desktop/Laptop relationship than a PC/PS3 relationship in terms of moving a game from one to the other. Essentially, more gaming engines will be able to make games for both, with smaller needs for changes in their existing engine(s).

There's a big emphasis on making game development between the two systems incredibly easy and efficient, so much of this was probably kept in mind with the development of the NGP. Until there's more technicaly information about the software that the NGP uses, it'll be hard to make any more specific claims, aside from the fact that the developers all seem to talk about how simple it is. All we know is that most game engines build to work with the PlayStation 3 architecture, seems to be capable of making very simple adjustments to move its data from the PS3 to the NGP, since they mention that it was done in a "very, very short time." and Camcom was the only one who mentioned making any modifications to their game engine for the NGP Demo. Again, these are all comments from the Developers, not from Sony.

It's an implication that it will be close, which means about the same. Which I am not seeing.

It's something that the game developers ARE though, and not just the Sony reps talking the thing up.

Environments and model data are made up of advanced shaders, textures, lighting and polygons man.

True, but the lighting/shading effects, and polygon count are all things that can be controlled by graphical settings. Those are the main changes in running a PC game at full specs and at lower specs. While I can't comment to what degree the NGP is or isn't capable of running those models at, it's the fact that it's using that data directly from what was developed for the PS3 that's a big deal. You'd have to create entirely new models and environments for ANY portable versions of games up until now, because they wouldn't be able to handle that type of data to begin with. It's a HUGE deal that the NGP is capable of using the environments and model data directly from a PS3 game.

Console games tend to be pretty stripped down when compared to their pc versions, seems like it'd be a similar relationship.

John Carmack stated that the archeticture and development environment on the pc and 360 were heavily similar which made development and porting easier, but I haven't seen that play a very important role in the quality of ports. PC games are still higher quality, and 360 games still cost money to make simultaneously.

You're still talking about a mobile system, though man. That very fact is nothing short of fucking amazing. It's definately a similiar relationship from the graphical capabilities of a PC vs. the potential of it's console version, but they're using the same data. The reason I'm making such a big deal about this, is that for portable games, you'd have to make all of that from scratch, like they do with the Wii/PS2/PSP versions of games now. If you don't have to do that, the development time that it takes to bring a PS3 title to the NGP is astronomically smaller than any previous mobile games. It's bringing it down to the level of normal cross-platform development, or possibly even smaller because they're using a similiar operating system architechture, unlike the PS3 and 360.

That being said, the 360 and PC comparison is a really good one to make. Since they're both developed by Microsoft, (and knowning a little bit about how the internal synergy works there), I'd assume that it's got similiarities to the Windows-based PC platforms. With that in mind, there are two other BIG things to take into account in looking at the PS3 / NGP relationship. One is that their control scheme is the same, with only a few differences. If your input methods are the same, it's going to take a lot less time to move a game over. Sure there will be development costs associated with the Touchpad/screen functionalities, but it's much different than the PC to 360 relationship there. Also - the NGP is built with this type of cross-communicative relationship in mind, which currently doesn't exist in any other format.

There's gonna have to be a lot of compression going on, because given the size of the thing, I can't see it having much storage space compared to a bluray.

This is one point where I can pretty much just say that you're completely wrong. The full title games that I have on my PS3 run around 4GB typically. Like 2D said, 32GB of storage space on a flash card isn't uncommon, especially when you're referring to a system that's going to be built to handle that kind of gaming information. There's not gonne be any compression needed to make it fit on the NGP. Disc media storage is totally different than Flash storage in terms of raw capacity.

Move was an addon, not a whole new platform though.

True, but it's the last hardware that Sony released that had big promises, that they displayed when it was announced. Having an openly available, working model is a big difference in the credibility of the claims made. Compare that to the sort of announcement that Sony made with Move to tht one that that Microsoft made with Kinect(Natal) and the never-released, smoke & mirrors Milo demo. Now compare those claims to what actually came out. That all taken into account, it's not just Sony talking a big game, and they're bringing in developers in both cases to back up their claims. As I showed above, there are a lot of game developers that came out and spoke about the points that I'm bringing up. They're the ones who are the most credible people to listen to here, because they're the people who have been working with the software, and some of them with the hardware as well. There's reason to be skeptical about any company talking a big game, and making wild promises, but what I'm trying to show here is that there's a LOT of reasons to believe that what's being shown and talked about is what's going to be exactly what's released. If you want to be skeptical, that's fine, but there's plenty of real evidence to back up the claims for this system.

That's why I'm excited.


X

 

[Max Payne]

It's something that the game developers ARE though, and not just the Sony reps talking the thing up.

Game developers haven't bullshitted right along with Sony and Microsoft before? Believe it when I see it.

It's a HUGE deal that the NGP is capable of using the environments and model data directly from a PS3 game.

Not really. Resident Evil portable games have used dumbed down models from RE4, the new mercenaries game on the 3ds is, Kingdom Hearts portable games have, hell the one on cellphones did, Dead Space portable is, and other games have before. Reusing assets isn't something new. I don't see what's to be excited about. Oh wait, this will make it faster, hooray.

You're still talking about a mobile system, though man. That very fact is nothing short of fucking amazing. It's definately a similiar relationship from the graphical capabilities of a PC vs. the potential of it's console version, but they're using the same data. The reason I'm making such a big deal about this, is that for portable games, you'd have to make all of that from scratch, like they do with the Wii/PS2/PSP versions of games now. If you don't have to do that, the development time that it takes to bring a PS3 title to the NGP is astronomically smaller than any previous mobile games. It's bringing it down to the level of normal cross-platform development, or possibly even smaller because they're using a similiar operating system architechture, unlike the PS3 and 360.

Eh? Reusing game assets for ports and handheld versions isn't some new development. I don't see how being able to do it faster would be anything special at all or even something I'd care about. Unique games for each platform is the preferable stance.

Being able to easily port games from the NGP/PSP to the ps3 so people who don't give a shitty about fucking handhelds seems like the only real thing I'd care about.

This is one point where I can pretty much just say that you're completely wrong. The full title games that I have on my PS3 run around 4GB typically. Like 2D said, 32GB of storage space on a flash card isn't uncommon, especially when you're referring to a system that's going to be built to handle that kind of gaming information. There's not gonne be any compression needed to make it fit on the NGP. Disc media storage is totally different than Flash storage in terms of raw capacity.

I have yet to see a flash card hold 50-60 gigs bro, but Blurays can.Maybe I'm wrong but I haven't seen any. Flash drives, yes. I mean, I take up an assload of space on my PC with the sheer amount of 4 gig games I have. I at least take up 70 gigs of space. I mean, honesty 32 gigs just isn't a lot of space. They might need compression of because of the sheer number of games and content that folks are going to have

Also, compression isn't a bad thing if done right. A lot of 360 games use a bevy of compression methods and still have their quality intact. It's all in what methods you use. If you look at the production models from Gears 2, then look at them in game, you can tell they're not as high quality, but still look good. The 360 just isn't capable of outputting so much of the model data at the same resolution and poly count as Zbrush is.
Now that I think about it, most console games use some form of compression, except a handful of ps3 games that just don't bother with it because of Bluray.

True, but it's the last hardware that Sony released that had big promises, that they displayed when it was announced. Having an openly available, working model is a big difference in the credibility of the claims made. Compare that to the sort of announcement that Sony made with Move to tht one that that Microsoft made with Kinect(Natal) and the never-released, smoke & mirrors Milo demo. Now compare those claims to what actually came out. That all taken into account, it's not just Sony talking a big game, and they're bringing in developers in both cases to back up their claims. As I showed above, there are a lot of game developers that came out and spoke about the points that I'm bringing up. They're the ones who are the most credible people to listen to here, because they're the people who have been working with the software, and some of them with the hardware as well. There's reason to be skeptical about any company talking a big game, and making wild promises, but what I'm trying to show here is that there's a LOT of reasons to believe that what's being shown and talked about is what's going to be exactly what's released. If you want to be skeptical, that's fine, but there's plenty of real evidence to back up the claims for this system.

Say you're right and their bullshit is true, it literally changes almost nothing as far as I'm concerned. You really want the same game, but dumbed down for a portable(hurr ALMOST THE SAME QUALITY)? People already do that. I just don't see the appeal, whether they can do it faster or not I don't see it changing a thing. Other than the ability to port back to the ps3 so people get the games they want without playing a handheld, I don't care about it.

Like I said, this motherfucker is still going to be expensive too. Analysts are already saying it's gonna be 300-350 because they can't see Sony being able to lose money on this platform like they did with the ps3.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Game developers haven't bullshitted right along with Sony and Microsoft before? Believe it when I see it.

Aside from the NGP being released, there's really nothing to back up your claim of, "it's a conspiracy of bullshit" especially because it's BEEN seen at the Press Conference. The models of the NGP shown there are capable of doing everything that the were explicitly stated to do. Whether or not any of that changes for the release models remains to be seen, but the argument of, "it's not out yet, so everyone could just be lying" doesn't really hold any credibility. I do completely support the possibility that the final version of the NGP may not be exactly capable of what the one that they showed does, like with the E3 2005 - E3 2006 PS3 changes. It doesn't change the fact that I'm talking about the current model that's displayed, all the things that IT DOES, and why I am super excited at the possibility of having one of them.

Not really. Resident Evil portable games have used dumbed down models from RE4, the new mercenaries game on the 3ds is, Kingdom Hearts portable games have, hell the one on cellphones did, Dead Space portable is, and other games have before. Reusing assets isn't something new. I don't see what's to be excited about. Oh wait, this will make it faster, hooray.

Eh? Reusing game assets for ports and handheld versions isn't some new development. I don't see how being able to do it faster would be anything special at all or even something I'd care about. Unique games for each platform is the preferable stance.

Being able to easily port games from the NGP/PSP to the ps3 so people who don't give a shitty about fucking handhelds seems like the only real thing I'd care about.

Look at the comments from Epic's VP, Mark Rein about what they did for the Conference.

"At Sony's PlayStation event we showed Trendy Entertainment's Dungeon Defenders game on NGP," he said. "It was a great demonstration of Unreal Engine 3's fantastic cross-platform capabilities.

Trendy had never even seen NGP prior to coming to our office and in under a week they delivered the fully playable version of the game we showed on stage... If we had given them another week they would have shown us NGP playing against PS3 as well – they already plan to deliver that functionality when they ship the game."

"A truly portable high-end gaming experience just seems so awesome to me," he said. "I've said for a while that triple-A isn't going away, it's going everywhere. The idea of a portable device that delivers the kinds of high-performance dual-analog stick experiences I can get on a console definitely appeals to me as a gamer and the NGP can do that and so much more."

They took a PS3 version of a game, and had NEVER SEEN the NGP for, and made the fully playable version in under a week. I'd say that's a pretty fucking big deal. Not to mention the confirmation of NGP to PS3 cross platform playing.

I have yet to see a flash card hold 50-60 gigs bro, but Blurays can.Maybe I'm wrong but I haven't seen any. Flash drives, yes. I mean, I take up an assload of space on my PC with the sheer amount of 4 gig games I have. I at least take up 70 gigs of space. I mean, honesty 32 gigs just isn't a lot of space. They might need compression of because of the sheer number of games and content that folks are going to have.

Also, compression isn't a bad thing if done right. A lot of 360 games use a bevy of compression methods and still have their quality intact. It's all in what methods you use. If you look at the production models from Gears 2, then look at them in game, you can tell they're not as high quality, but still look good. The 360 just isn't capable of outputting so much of the model data at the same resolution and poly count as Zbrush is.
Now that I think about it, most console games use some form of compression, except a handful of ps3 games that just don't bother with it because of Bluray.

I'm not aware of many current PS3 games that are using anything NEAR that level of space. Sure a Blu-Ray can hold that, but current games, as far as I'm aware aren't coming near that threshold, so there's not too much reason to go worrying about that in application of the NGP for a while. Good points about compression, but I'm not so sure that it would be drastically affecting the NGP quality depending on what it's just flat out capable of. I'm sure it's going to be less than the PS3 which is already stated, and to be expected, but where that falls is still a question yet to be answered.

Say you're right and their bullshit is true announced model is what ends up being released, it literally changes almost nothing as far as I'm concerned. You really want the same game, but dumbed down for a portable? People already do that. I just don't see the appeal, whether they can do it faster or not I don't see it changing a thing.

No, I want to be able to take my PS3 game, and play it when I'm not at home as well. I don't want to just have to play lower quality games from a portable device. That's what the NGP is all about. It's about slowly erasing the lines between portable and console games.


X

 

[Max Payne]

Aside from the NGP being released, there's really nothing to back up your claim of, "it's a conspiracy of bullshit" especially because it's BEEN seen at the Press Conference. The models of the NGP shown there are capable of doing everything that the were explicitly stated to do. Whether or not any of that changes for the release models remains to be seen, but the argument of, "it's not out yet, so everyone could just be lying" doesn't really hold any credibility. I do completely support the possibility that the final version of the NGP may not be exactly capable of what the one that they showed does, like with the E3 2005 - E3 2006 PS3 changes. It doesn't change the fact that I'm talking about the current model that's displayed, all the things that IT DOES, and why I am super excited at the possibility of having one of them.

Apprehension based off past lies and claims from Sony and developers does not make a "it's a conspiracy" position. Give me a break man.

They took a PS3 version of a game, and had NEVER SEEN the NGP for, and made the fully playable version in under a week. I'd say that's a pretty fucking big deal.

Taking old assets, dumbing them down and slapping a presentation together does not impress me in the least. FFS people have made similar claims before. You can take assets from a game, convert their format to suit another platform, and assemble a new scenario pretty damn quickly because you don't need to build any new assets, just tweak and modify them. A developer the size of Epic with the development tools they have and the versatility of the UE3 makes this pretty damn easy for them.

I'm not aware of many current PS3 games that are using anything NEAR that level of space. Sure a Blu-Ray can hold that, but current games, as far as I'm aware aren't coming near that threshold, so there's not too much reason to go worrying about that in application of the NGP for a while. Good points about compression, but I'm not so sure that it would be drastically affecting the NGP quality depending on what it's just flat out capable of. I'm sure it's going to be less than the PS3 which is already stated, and to be expected, but where that falls is still a question yet to be answered.

The point isn't that the space is utilized, but that you can do some much more with it. Of course certain devs bullshit and don't compress their crap and claim their content is making full use of the BluRay's space. I'm looking at you Kojima.

No, I want to be able to take my PS3 game, and play it when I'm not at home as well. I don't want to just have to play lower quality games from a portable device. That's what the NGP is all about. It's about slowly erasing the lines between portable and console games.

I don't see it doing that man. It's a portable, and portables will always have a clear line of different in quality between them and more powerful machines like consoles. All I see it as is a pipe dream and a waste of time, when they make awesome games for handhelds already that accommodate them perfectly.

That's just my opinion, but I don't see the so called amazing developments here.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Apprehension based off past lies and claims from Sony and developers does not make a "it's a conspiracy" position. Give me a break man.

I very clearly stated that it's perfectly fine to be apprehensive of what the NGP ends up as when it finally ships. It's another thing entirely to make baseless accusations about the product shown at the press conference, and talk about it being incapable of doing things that it was displayed doing.

Taking old assets, dumbing them down and slapping a presentation together does not impress me in the least. FFS people have made similar claims before. You can take assets from a game, convert their format to suit another platform, and assemble a new scenario pretty damn quickly because you don't need to build any new assets, just tweak and modify them. A developer the size of Epic with the development tools they have and the versatility of the UE3 makes this pretty damn easy for them.

Not only is this just for another platform, it's for a platform they had NEVER seen before. If that doesn't prove the simplicity of moving PS3 assets to the NGP, I don't know what does.

They also mentioned that within another week they'd have been able to make the game playable cross-platform within another week. While that's not something that was directly demonstrated, it's something that they have officially said will be capable with the final product. It's the point that I was making before. This is delivering a PS3 game on the NGP that's cross platform playable, with incredibly small development times. It's one of the biggest things about the NGP. The cost associated with making their game portable-friendly is incredibly small compared to what it would take to make something similiar for the current-gen PSP. Sure Epic is best suited for accomplishing something like this, but it doesn't make it any less impressive.

The point isn't that the space is utilized, but that you can do some much more with it. Of course certain devs bullshit and don't compress their crap and claim their content is making full use of the BluRay's space. I'm looking at you Kojima.

Agreed, but until there's ANYONE that's actually doing that, it's a moot point.

I don't see it doing that man. It's a portable, and portables will always have a clear line of different in quality between them and more powerful machines like consoles. All I see it as is a pipe dream and a waste of time, when they make awesome games for handhelds already that accommodate them perfectly.

That's just my opinion, but I don't see the so called amazing developments here.

I'll wait for E3 for more official looks at what the NGP/PS3 single-game playability is, but almost all the developers have mentioned cross-playform playability between the NGP and PS3. Sure there's a line of difference in quality, just like there's one between PC & console gaming, but it's getting significantly smaller, and that's a big deal, because it's not something that currently exists in hand-held gaming anywhere right now.

While I agree that there are a lot of awesome games for handhelds that suit that medium, there's the PlayStation Suiteas a "hardware-less gaming platform" for a lot of that type of gaming experience. The reason is that more and more, the general person is getting access to mobile hardware that's capable of playing that wort of content without a dedicated gaming system. Technology's moving in that direction. That's why there's the push to redefine what purposes a dedicated portable gaming system should be capable of, and why for the NGP, since it's going to have dedicated harware, it should be capable of gaming up to what's available on a console. That's a change that makes sense, and it's why I'm behind it.


X

 

[Max Payne]

I very clearly stated that it's perfectly fine to be apprehensive of what the NGP ends up as when it finally ships. It's another thing entirely to make baseless accusations about the product shown at the press conference, and talk about it being incapable of doing things that it was displayed doing.

I never made any accusations. I just said that they've lied before and I have no reason to buy their act now. I don't see the "almost as powerful as PS3" shit happening at the conference, nor do I see them porting entire games from a ps3 to the NGP with minimal difference in quality.

It all remains to be seen, there I remain apprehensive.

Not only is this just for another platform, it's for a platform they had NEVER seen before. If that doesn't prove the simplicity of moving PS3 assets to the NGP, I don't know what does.

What relevance does this have if the development environment is similar? You can do the same with a PC and the 360, especially with the Cryengine 3 and Unreal Engine 3. I stand by my original statement.

I'll wait for E3 for more official looks at what the NGP/PS3 single-game playability is, but almost all the developers have mentioned cross-playform playability between the NGP and PS3. Sure there's a line of difference in quality, just like there's one between PC & console gaming, but it's getting significantly smaller, and that's a big deal, because it's not something that currently exists in hand-held gaming anywhere right now.

I have seen no evidence of this at all. It doesn't matter either. Handhelds will never be on the same level as consoles simply because of the nature of the thing. When next gen rolls around it won't matter at all.

While I agree that there are a lot of awesome games for handhelds that suit that medium, there's the PlayStation Suiteas a "hardware-less gaming platform" for a lot of that type of gaming experience. The reason is that more and more, the general person is getting access to mobile hardware that's capable of playing that wort of content without a dedicated gaming system. Technology's moving in that direction. That's why there's the push to redefine what purposes a dedicated portable gaming system should be capable of, and why for the NGP, since it's going to have dedicated harware, it should be capable of gaming up to what's available on a console. That's a change that makes sense, and it's why I'm behind it.

Hardware-less gaming platform? That just sounds like nothing but cloud based bullshit that will never take hold simply because of it what it requires. This is a pointless attempt at bridging the gap between consoles and handhelds which will always be divisive because of the platforms, when they should be focusing on the unique strengths of both platforms.

I remain unconvinced.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I never made any accusations. I just said that they've lied before and I have no reason to buy their act now. I don't see the "almost as powerful as PS3" shit happening at the conference, nor do I see them porting entire games from a ps3 to the NGP with minimal difference in quality.

It all remains to be seen, there I remain apprehensive.

That's exactly what Dungeon Defenders was: a PS3 game ported to the NGP with minimal difference in quality.

What relevance does this have if the development environment is similar? You can do the same with a PC and the 360, especially with the Cryengine 3 and Unreal Engine 3. I stand by my original statement.

That's the POINT, Dacon. The development environment is super similiar. That means less cost for side by side development, and much less effort split between companies like SE developing portable games, when you'll be able to use most of the basic assets of the PS3 title directly for both versions. It also means that the possibility of getting real cross-platform gaming between the two systems is much more possible.

I have seen no evidence of this at all. It doesn't matter either. Handhelds will never be on the same level as consoles simply because of the nature of the thing. When next gen rolls around it won't matter at all.

You have. Even if the NGP was only slightly better than the PSP (the Uncharted demo blows away any current high-end PSP title), then it's evidence that the gap between consoles and handhelds is getting smaller.

"Handhelds Consoles will never be on the same level as consoles PC's, simply because of the nature of the thing."

Never the less, the console gaming experience has made big leaps towards closing that gap. This is the same thing with the Portable to Console gap.

Sony wants the PS3 have a 10 year total lifespan. Plus, you even stated that the consoles haven't reached their full potential yet, so that doesn't look to be happening any time soon, so I don't see the point of claiming that it won't matter, when it's not anywhere in the forseeable future. Also, NGP = Next Generation Platform. That's what it's all about.

Hardware-less gaming platform? That just sounds like nothing but cloud based bullshit that will never take hold simply because of it what it requires. This is a pointless attempt at bridging the gap between consoles and handhelds which will always be divisive because of the platforms, when they should be focusing on the unique strengths of both platforms.

I remain unconvinced.

Hardware-less means that it doesn't require a dedicated hardware system like a PSP/PS3/etc. It's being released to Android devices that are capable of running them. It's not cloud-based.

"This is a pointless attempt at bridging the gap between consoles PCs and handhelds Consoles which will always be divisive because of the platforms, when they should be focusing on the unique strengths of both platforms."

It wasn't so long ago that this was a totally valid argument, but the rapid evolution of technology is narrowing these gaps. Mobile technology especially is coming along REALLY fast, man, most noticably in the last 3 years. In light of this type of development, Sony has to be forward thinking, and I think that what they're working towards with the NGP is precisely where that sort of technology is suited.


X

 

[Max Payne]

That's exactly what Dungeon Defenders was: a PS3 game ported to the NGP with minimal difference in quality

You know damn well what I meant. Dungeon Defenders isn't even comparable to big budget PS3 games.

That's the POINT, Dacon. The development environment is super similiar. That means less cost for side by side development, and much less effort split between companies like SE developing portable games, when you'll be able to use most of the basic assets of the PS3 title directly for both versions. It also means that the possibility of getting real cross-platform gaming between the two systems is much more possible.

No, you were making a point of the speed, and what I'm saying is that's nothing that hasn't been achieved before.

You have. Even if the NGP was only slightly better than the PSP (the Uncharted demo blows away any current high-end PSP title), then it's evidence that the gap between consoles and handhelds is getting smaller.

I have not seen a NGP title that comes close to the degree of quality as Uncharted 2, Killzone 2, Gears 2, or Gears 3. The gap has not gotten "significantly smaller". I will concede that it has gotten closer given the lack of evolution in development from most console developers.

Never the less, the console gaming experience has made big leaps towards closing that gap. This is the same thing with the Portable to Console gap.

Consoles are nowhere near as powerful as PCs are. If anything, I will resign that the NGP is much closer in power to the PS3 than a PS3 is to a real gaming pc.

Sony wants the PS3 have a 10 year total lifespan. Plus, you even stated that the consoles haven't reached their full potential yet, so that doesn't look to be happening any time soon, so I don't see the point of claiming that it won't matter, when it's not anywhere in the forseeable future. Also, NGP = Next Generation Platform. That's what it's all about

The foreseeable future always comes faster than you expect. Also, how can the gap be significantly smaller if the PS3 has been underutilized? If you don't know the full capability of a thing how can you claim that a platform is can almost be as powerful as it? HUH SONY?

Hardware-less means that it doesn't require a dedicated hardware system like a PSP/PS3/etc. It's being released to Android devices that are capable of running them. It's not cloud-based.

If it's using hardware to play a game it's not hardware-less. Cloud based gaming is using the internet to play a game through streaming services like OnLive.

"This is a pointless attempt at bridging the gap between consoles PCs and handhelds Consoles which will always be divisive because of the platforms, when they should be focusing on the unique strengths of both platforms."

It wasn't so long ago that this was a totally valid argument, but the rapid evolution of technology is narrowing these gaps. Mobile technology especially is coming along REALLY fast, man, most noticably in the last 3 years. In light of this type of development, Sony has to be forward thinking, and I think that what they're working towards with the NGP is precisely where that sort of technology is suited.

PCs are still leaps and bounds more powerful than Consoles. PS3s and 360s don't come close to what's capable on the most powerful gaming pc can do. We only see more games ported from consoles to pc that under-utilize the
power of the pc because they're made first and foremost for consoles. Crysis came out in 2007 and there still isn't a console game that looks as good, or does as much technologically as the game does at it's fullest.

Mobile technology is still pretty far behind devices like PCs and consoles, and I don't see that gap just suddenly closing by any great distance within the next five years.

I am waiting to be proven wrong, but I don't see handheld/portable gaming ever becoming more than a secondary market of hardcore gaming platforms like consoles and PCs. As mobile tech gets better, so will gaming platforms, and PCs make huge jumps in technology every year, as console gaming ages it too will become more mature and capable. They won't just stay still.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

You know damn well what I meant. Dungeon Defenders isn't even comparable to big budget PS3 games.

Ok, I'll touch on that with your comment below then.

No, you were making a point of the speed, and what I'm saying is that's nothing that hasn't been achieved before.

I was more specifically making a point of the speed and what it means for the development between the PS3 and NGP.

I have not seen a NGP title that comes close to the degree of quality as Uncharted 2, Killzone 2, Gears 2, or Gears 3. The gap has not gotten "significantly smaller". I will concede that it has gotten closer given the lack of evolution in development from most console developers.

Then let me show you that this is taking place. Unfortunately, a good portion of the better footage that's been captured is just handy-cam from the initial presentation: This has the NGP Killzone & Resistance footage.

Aside from that, though not a displayed example, I'd say that one of the most credible sources would be Brian Ashcraft from Kotaku, who had hands on with the NGP at the conference. Here's a section from his article on his hands on with the NGP, and the conference.

During today's presentation, the footage of Uncharted for NGP looked very close to PS3 level graphics — not quite PS3, but close. However, Capcom's Lost Planet 2 looked blocky with heavy pixelated backgrounds. If Uncharted on NGP looked close to the PS3, Lost Planet looked close to the PS2.

The NGP does not produce PS3 level graphics, and Sony's Yoshida was quick to point that out. "It's close to the PS3. You feel like it's the PS3." He's right, it is very close, thanks to developer tech like shaders, something like Uncharted looks very near to PS3 level graphics. They're not the same, but there either in the same ballpark or playing the same game.

The footage that third party developers showed today of Yakuza 4 or Metal Gear Solid 4 running on NGP are demos of what is possible on Sony's handheld. But tonight in Sony's Shinagawa headquarters, the company showed off two titles, Little Deviant and Uncharted, that show more than promises and what ifs, but playable reality.

Consoles are nowhere near as powerful as PCs are. If anything, I will resign that the NGP is much closer in power to the PS3 than a PS3 is to a real gaming pc.

This is something I will absolutely agree with you on.

The foreseeable future always comes faster than you expect. Also, how can the gap be significantly smaller if the PS3 has been underutilized? If you don't know the full capability of a thing how can you claim that a platform is can almost be as powerful as it? HUH SONY?

There's a difference between not knowing the full capacity of a system, and it being unused. I'm not sure what the case is with the PS3 though.

If it's using hardware to play a game it's not hardware-less. Cloud based gaming is using the internet to play a game through streaming services like OnLive.

It's a bad way to phrase it, but I think it's that they're referring to the PlayStation Suite as a platform, rather than a game distribution service, or I may have been misquoting that.

PCs are still leaps and bounds more powerful than Consoles. PS3s and 360s don't come close to what's capable on the most powerful gaming pc can do. We only see more games ported from consoles to pc that under-utilize the power of the pc because they're made first and foremost for consoles. Crysis came out in 2007 and there still isn't a console game that looks as good, or does as much technologically as the game does at it's fullest.

Agreed again.

Mobile technology is still pretty far behind devices like PCs and consoles, and I don't see that gap just suddenly closing by any great distance within the next five years.

While most mobile technology is, it's up to the point that it can handle games of previous systems via emulation with very little issue, thus the PlayStation Suite. The hardware and capability of the NGP is impressive at least.

I am waiting to be proven wrong, but I don't see handheld/portable gaming ever becoming more than a secondary market of hardcore gaming platforms like consoles and PCs. As mobile tech gets better, so will gaming platforms, and PCs make huge jumps in technology every year, as console gaming ages it too will become more mature and capable. They won't just stay still.

The PC > Console > Portable relationship will never change just by the very nature of what they are, but the distances between them will continue to shrink, there's a change in the models for what they're appealing to. The interesting thing here is that there are 3 SUPER different models right now, and they're all focusing differently.

• Microsoft: PC > Console > (Mobile)
As of right now, Microsoft's not involved in the portable market. They've got the majority of the PC Market, & a high-end console system, both of which have got a really good handle on online interaction, and making that work. While they also have the W7 phone that isn't really geared towards gaming specifically, but could conceivably be at some point.

• Nintendo: Console > Mobile
Nintendo is playing the other side of things. They have a lower-end gaming system that appeals to a different type of gaming audience overall, that's big on multi-user social interactions. By the same token, they have a handheld system that's build to appeal to the same general types of games.

• Sony: Console > Portable > Mobile
Sony's main focus in gaming is their PS3. With mobile successes like the iPhone/iPad, and other smartphone systems, they're trying to divide the Portable gaming system into something that's different, and that benefits them overall. PlayStation Suite is moving any games that it can towards Android devices. Then it's taking its portable system and bringing it closer to the PS3, so that the developers interested in making games for the NGP with a higher-end experience can, and the companies that want to make other games has a route for that as well. The NGP's development process provides syngergy for PS3-title development, whereas the PlayStation Suite leaves that out, because it's not something that would matter in the long run for those titles.

It's not just the NGP capabilities that have me excited, It's that the model for where developers are putting their efforts is much better with this relationship. Developers who focus on making high-end NGP games will be learning things that would encourage them to develop for the PS3, just like PS3 game devs that are interested in also giving a portable experience have that avenue more simple. And then the other developers who just make more simple games, have the capability of getting them to an even wider audience.


X

 

[Max Payne]

I've seen all of the footage man. Those games don't really compare to the best we've seen on consoles this gen. Killzone and Resistance look particularly bad compared to their console counterparts.

Things always get better with time, I'll give you that, but I'm just not seeing anything here to really get excited for, or anything that really impresses me.

I suppose it could do away with shit like Valkyria Chronicles 2 going to the PSP only when the damn first game is on ps3, but that remains to be seen.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I've seen all of the footage man. Those games don't really compare to the best we've seen on consoles this gen. Killzone and Resistance look particularly bad compared to their console counterparts.

Things always get better with time, I'll give you that, but I'm just not seeing anything here to really get excited for, or anything that really impresses me.

I do completely agree that it's not near the best we've seen, but it's getting miles closer than what the best of the PSP was. I'm also of the opinion that the footage that's been shown doesn't fully convey the feeling of PS3-esque footage. Despite that, the opinion that Bashcraft has from actually getting hands on time and being with at the press conference has me much more confident, especially because he calls out Lost Planet 2 for looking PS2-like, and claims that Uncharted is PS3-like. At least it's proof that the hardware is capable when used correctly.

Hopefully there will be better displays of what was shown, at some point soon so that it'll be easier to form an educated opinion on what it offers without having to attend one of those conferences. Unfortunately, I think that it's doubtful that Sony will release any more of this conference's footage, until the products shown are more official and further developed.

I suppose it could do away with shit like Valkyria Chronicles 2 going to the PSP only when the damn first game is on ps3, but that remains to be seen.

That's a lot of what I was mentioning with the re-positioning of developer efforts. Not to mention SquareEnix not putting every goddamn title on the PSP, because it allows them to be LAZY. (Although it appears that a $60 of T3B's story may have caused me as much rage as much as TFU2 did).


X

 

[Max Payne]

I'll wait and see, simply because you put so much effort into this little tl;dr debate. But I will remain hesitant nonetheless.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I'll wait and see, simply because you put so much effort into this little tl;dr debate. But I will remain hesitant nonetheless.

Well, thank you!

You remain hesitant, and I'll remain hopeful, and we'll both wait & see.


Also, I think that anyone else who just reads through all 3 pages of our non-stop tl;dr probably deserves a medal. I bet it's much less interesting when it's not single read-response posting of vast amounts of content.


X

 

[Max Payne]

I still say folks will get buttfucked on the price. Anything coming close to PS3 power is not gonna be cheap.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I still say folks will get buttfucked on the price. Anything coming close to PS3 power is not gonna be cheap.

This is something that I fear as well. (It's why I'm glad it's being released in the holiday season, so that I can hopefully get some help in obtaining one). They say that the price will be understandable, but fuck only knows what that means, especially coming from Sony. I just hope they don't base it off of "How much more capable is this than a $250 3DS"?



At this point, I'm most curious as to what the game costs are going to be.

• I'm all for paying full cost for a game that'll move between my PS3 and NGP. It's essentially just a PS3 game with added functionality at that point, so no concerns there.

• It's the NGP-only games that will be interesting. I'm hoping that the cutting of physical distribution costs will go towards making the games cheaper to obtain. The other thing is that reviews on games will be MUCH more make-or-break it, since you'd have to go in knowing that you can't return the game, just like with any of the other downloadable games on PSN. That, and I'm hopeful that because they're download-only, PlayStation Plus accounts will have an impact on some of the games, too.

If they're dividing their resources evenly between the PS3 > NGP > PSS, it will probably look like this:

PS3: $40-60
NGP: $16-39
PSS: $5-15

I figure that anything that's above $40 deserves to be developed for the PS3, and ported to the NGP if they're also interested in that, which should make them cross-compatible. Essentially just give the Blu-ray an NGP install along with the game. There's PLENTY of room on it. Thus the $40 would represent the top threshold of the NGP-only titles. Most of the high end PlayStation Network games are ~$15 right now, and that's where I see the PlayStation Suite games coming into play. Since the PSS games are playable on NGP, they wouldn't be included in NGP-only, so they'd have a low-end of ~$15.

That's ALL speculation, but that's how I see it working out with Sony's current gaming business model.


Speaking of $40 games, I would LOVE an NGP port of 3D Dot Game Heroes.


X

 

[Max Payne]

I still say 250 bucks for a 3ds is fucking ridiculous.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I still say 250 bucks for a 3ds is fucking ridiculous.

Same. That's why I hope Sony doesn't consider that cost "understandable" and go from there.


X

 

[X-SOLDIER]

For everyone who was asking about buying / returning NGP games, it looks like there may be some good news for you in the near future. While not a confirmation, this article gives a look into the possibility of purchasing physical NGP games.

While Sony showed off the NGP's diminutive new storage medium, a piece of plastic about the size of an SD flash card you might use in your camera, they didn't talk much about it. They did say that the card can store the full software titles plus add-on game content or the game save data directly on to the card. But not how you will buy games.

Retailer GameStop was essentially cut out of the game-selling process with the release of Sony's last portable, the PSPGo. That device had you purchase games directly from Sony and download them. No store was needed. The retailer wasn't pleased.

This time around it seems as if Sony is still in talks with GameStop and other retailers about how exactly its many games will be sold.

"You will be able to download NGP games or other content from the PlayStation Store to a storage media via the Internet, or buy the new game medium at retailers," Tretton said when I asked him about it. "We will announce further details when ready."

Contacted last week for comment, GameStop told me they were under a non-disclosure agreement with Sony on the subject, something that hints at more news to come.

While we'll probably be waiting for a while for the official announcement, this sounds like a step in the right direction at least.



In addition to that, Kotaku's uploaded a TON of video of the conference dubbed over in English. It totals at over an hour, so I'm assuming that it's the entire conference. I won't have a chance to watch it on my own until tonight, but the comments are alight with really enthuiastic and interesting observations. (Parts 2 & 3 are supposed to be the most interesting, followed by the tech demos).

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

Part 6

X

 

[Max Payne]

Lol so they announced a new platform without any set distribution plans for the games?

lolwat

 

[X-SOLDIER]

@ Dacon: They do have a set digital distribution method (like they did with the PSP Go), but they're still working out the specifics of the physical distribution methods, since it's very much unlike the standard release models. So it's not like they don't have ANY way of distributing games, it's just that the methods for physical release on Flash Cards via GameStop or something like that hasn't been finalized as of yet.



As for the PlayStation Meeting 2011 videos, I've finally had a chance to watch through them, so I'll post up my opinions, and break them down, in case you want to find a particular section.


Introduction: (Part 1) The E3 2005 trailer sets the stage for everything that they want to discuss about the interactivity of Reality and Data. This becomes much more applicable in the parts later on during part 3 on Live & Near, and the development of a future where both technologies interact with each other. It's a big step towards a linked life, moreso than what they currently accomplish in their online communities. It also talks about moving the experience wherever you go, and evolving the current model. (Again more of my thoughts for them going towards the NGP name, and not just a PSP2, because it's a push towards a very different innovation). Lots of interesting discussion about Networking becoming just as important as a part of the experience as Hardware & Software.

Cross-Platform: (Part 1 ~9:00 - Part 2) Lots of good points how portable gaming has been changing a lot since the release of the PSP. Mostly about the differences in Mobile (Smartphones, Tablets, etc) and Portable (dedicated hardware) gaming that I was talking about earlier in the thread. Cross Platform & Cross Device that's built to benefit users, developers, and the company as a while. Also the "Hardware-Neutral Game Framework" or "Hardware-Agnostic" is the term that I was trying to remember in earlier posts in regards to PSS. I'm hoping that you'll be able to tie it in to a PSN account, and that way, if you own any PSOne games already, you can get the PSS version of them for free. The idea of using PSS to draw in Portable developers is also an interesting point.

NGP Announcement: (Part 2 ~2:30) The 5 big points that they start with are Revolutionary User Interface, Social Connectivity, Location-Based Entertainment, Converging Real & Virtual. This puts emphasis on the merging of reality and online networking that's swiftly becoming more commonplace, and although not as impactful for most gamers as the specs itself, do come up, and lend more towards the NGP as a real Next Generation Device as compared towards the model of the PSP.

Game trailers: (Part 2 ~12:00) Some better footage from that previously released. Nothing too new.

Uncharted: (Part 2 ~14:00 & Part 3) Finally seeing the game in motion makes it significantly more impressive. The drawing to move/climb along a path was fairly impressive. The touch screen/pad interactions with the game seem to have come in very naturally, which is nice to see. It's one thing to hear about how they work, and another thing entirely to see them in action. The First-Person rifle scope view seems like it would be pretty simple, but I wonder about using an analog stick for it instead and if that's just a feature that can be turned on/off like some games' Sixaxis support.

Little Deviants: (Part 3 ~ 5:25) So I'd known about the single finger interaction on the rear panel, but the bit about it recognizing tapping to bounce things, and using two fingers for larger hills was impressive, but most of all the fact that you can pinch between the front and rear touchpads to stretch and slingshot was pretty amazing.

Live Area / Near: (Part 3 ~9:30) They both seem pretty interesting as far as game interaction with other users. The way that they're building the interaction for the games being played, and they're integrating other more common smartphone-like social networking features. It's a very good adaptation for making a successful interaction in an online mobile community. I'm sure that it will be vastly more successful in Japan, or anywhere with a larger population density, but it's something that I see myself enjoying as well. I'm assuming that there would be a simple enable / disable function, or at least the capability to prevent user-stalking from anyone not in your friends list. Either that or the data that they list only updates periodically, since they list is was for all users within the last hour or so. The statistical information is really neat though.

Augmented Reality / Hot Shots Golf: (Part 4) The use of the Sixaxis control to look around in the virtual environment is really cool, especially since it manages to remain level, despite rotating the NGP different directions. It also talks about the fact that the hardward is the same as that used in the PlayStation Move controllers, and not just the comparitively simple DS3 tech. It's something that's interesting as it's even more complex than what's currently offered by PlayStation Move.

PlayStation Suite: (Part 4 ~7:00) Lots of conversation on how it will expand PlayStation content, and the cross-platform interoperataibility as well as widening out Developers and Titles.

Takeuchi from Capcom: (Part 4 ~10:00) The most interesting part is where he talks about the NGP differences with the PS3. The MT Framework Mobile can run the full specification framework. Talking about the Meta Shaders and HDR Rendering is the same as the PS3, but the Geometry processing for Light/Shadow filters and the physics are the same (Not sure that the translation is 100%, but I'd assume that the geometry processing of their engine is what makes the models look a bit blocky). More talk about howt he NGP environment is flexible and simple to develop for. The demo was made in 2 weeks

Nagoshi from Sega: (Part 5) Ryuga Gotoku (?) video and more talk about the Lighting and Shaders usingt he same information as the PS3 with a brief Demo video.

Suzuki from Temco Koei: (Part 5 ~5:00) The lighting on the Demo for the Musou series is fairly impressive, compared to what's been shown so far. Not sure about the gameplay, since it's mostly testing the touch interface. Overall it's a one of the better visuals that's been shown so far, because there's a lot of up close texture/lighting shots.

Kojima from Temco Konami: (Part 5 ~10:00) Snake meeting with the MKII. It's a dark scene, so it's tough to tell how much of the lighting effects come through. The geometry on the models is pretty impressive, and it's easier to tell the mentioned difference between this and the Lost Planet 2 demo. Although it's using the same model data and information from the PS3 rendered in real time. There isn't any reduction, and it runs at about 20FPS. If they do reduction to optimize the performance, they can get very close quality to PS3. Note that it's not the EXACT same as the PS3. Lots of talk about a universal experience regardless of where you are, and transferring a game between NGP and PS3.

Tim from Epic: (Part 6) Live footage of Unreal 3 on NGP. Really, really pretty looking, and LOTS of good technical information in this one, FAR moreso than any of the other presentations so far. Talk about the large environment, lots of animated characters, and particle systems all running at the same time, and how the Anti-aliasing and post processing is what make this look as polished as it does. They get ~4 times the performance out of the NGP as compared to any previous mobile platform.


Aside from that, it's just wrapping up, but it's nice to get all the information in a more clear format, and actually see everything that's been talked about.


X

 

[Max Payne]

Yeah, but it's still an oversight, and a silly one imo

 

[Mitch Connor]

Because they used the phrase " hopefully understandable" to describe the price I'm guessing it aint gonna be cheap. I would personally be surprised if it is under $400.

Does anyone remember the debut price of the psp-1000? I think it was something like $300 right?

 

[Tetsujin]

It's definitely gonna be friggin' expensive. I'm expecting it to be at least 300 bucks.

Bleh, I still gotta save money for a new PS3. =/

 

[Max Payne]

Yeah there is no way this is cheap.

Especially with all of the features they're trying to pack in.