SPOILERS Predictions for Part 2? (*Open Spoilers for Part 1*)

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
Oh, ok, I get it.
But why does the Planet need this loop? Didn't it have plenty of time to make a decision while observing events the first time around? Or are we inside its thought processes, so to speak? Are we somehow suspended inside that split second before it decides to send out the Lifestream to defeat Meteor?
Maybe to recycle itself and restart all life and history to it's purest form...

The Promised Land

Jokes aside, Nojima used the eternal return concept in Mobius - spoilers of Season 1 story - (the prophecy that guides the world of Palamecia is basically a loop, and the protagonist realizes it later), so I wouldn't be surprised if there's a loop at play here as well.
 
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Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Maybe to recycle itself and restart all life and history to it's purest form...

The Promised Land

Jokes aside, Nojima used the eternal return concept in Mobius (the prophecy that guides the world of Palamecia is basically a loop, and the protagonist realizes it later), so I wouldn't be surprised if there's a loop at play here as well.

Dissidia and Type-0 are loops too. SE are pretty fond of it overall.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Maybe to recycle itself and restart all life and history to it's purest form...

The Promised Land

Jokes aside, Nojima used the eternal return concept in Mobius - spoilers of the Season 1 story - (the prophecy that guides the world of Palamecia is basically a loop, and the protagonist realizes it later), so I wouldn't be surprised if there's a loop at play here as well.

That's precisely why I thought of this loop theory. Nojima and Kitase have used variations of this concept before and Mobius is one of these instances. Furthermore, the FFVII-R event of Mobius teased this out a little and since they wrote that crossover, I have a feeling that it's inspired them here.

Dissidia and Type-0 are loops too. SE are pretty fond of it overall.

Yes they are. Although that was Tabata but I'm sure they are aware and share that same creative energy.

Isn't the Matrix a loop? or something?

Yes that concept is present in The Matrix too.
 
Oh fuck it, I know I said I didn't care about understanding, but I do.

All those born of the planet, are bound to the planet's will. This is a fact that's been known since FFVII. However, this carries a double meaning. The world they exist in is a manifestation meant to adhere to the destiny the planet wishes to see followed. If it were to be undone and broken apart, the "children" of this world and destiny would also be undone, leaving him no longer subject to destiny's direction. Sephiroth is in essence stating his intention to undo the Remake world, and annihilate the Whispers who wish to protect the destiny that they're meant to protect. This causes them all to scream, and lash out, which he appropriately states as Destiny arriving to stop him. However he simply cuts his through the veil of reality, and into the similarity that exists beyond.

If the planet has already decided on the future it wants - and I am assuming the future it wants is the future we have already played through in the OG and seen in ACC - then why does it need to review these events? I don't see how it can simultaneously be reviewing and evaluating a series of events and also protecting that series of events from any possibility of change.

...Unless we're a situation analogous to when, once my students hand in an assignment, they are unable to access it until I have evaluated, graded, and released it to them. But Sephiroth has somehow gained access to my account, and is now trying to re-write the assignment.

So then what I don't understand is, if all this has happened before, why do some events deviate from the original timeline even though Sephiroth has nothing to do with them? For example, the decision not to take Cloud on the Reactor 5 bombing mission. if we're in a loop of events we have lived through before, and Sephiroth isn't changing events, then what is? It seems as if something else besides Sephiroth is at work here.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Oh fuck it, I know I said I didn't care about understanding, but I do.



If the planet has already decided on the future it wants - and I am assuming the future it wants is the future we have already played through in the OG and seen in ACC - then why does it need to review these events? I don't see how it can simultaneously be reviewing and evaluating a series of events and also protecting that series of events from any possibility of change.

...Unless we're a situation analogous to when, once my students hand in an assignment, they are unable to access it until I have evaluated, graded, and released it to them. But Sephiroth has somehow gained access to my account, and is now trying to re-write the assignment.

You pretty much answered your own question. It's judgment. By invoking Holy, it renders judgment to, as Bugenhagen put it, remove all that is bad for the planet. Why else would entities called Arbiters of Fate go to great lengths to preserve destiny, observe all that there is to ensure compliance and correct deviations from the planet's record of events? They must see all that happens to the end, before judgment is rendered by the planet.

Sephiroth is precisely trying to re-write the script, bypass judgment and dictate the end so he can end up on top and the one who absorbs all life of the planet. Hence his desire to defy destiny.

So then what I don't understand is, if all this has happened before, why do some events deviate from the original timeline even though Sephiroth has nothing to do with them? For example, the decision not to take Cloud on the Reactor 5 bombing mission. if we're in a loop of events we have lived through before, and Sephiroth isn't changing events, then what is? It seems as if something else besides Sephiroth is at work here.

It's happened once before. In FFVII. And the reason deviations happen is because humans have free will and the choice to do any number of possibilities that while similar, will ultimately create some sort of differences. So even though the same results may occur, they unfold in differing ways. Like the design for Spot. On one cycle of life, the designer based to dog on a Terrier. Then it repeats, and that same designer chose a Beagle.

Spot exists and is a core fixture in the chain of events that make up humanity but because of the infinite variability of human free will and consciousness, it's inevitable variety will exist. You can't step into the same spot of a flowing river, change of some kind is inevitable. It's like the cycle of life itself.
 
But if humans can make different choices in this time loop, how does that help the Planet judge whether the choices they made before the loop occured have redeemed them or not? It's as if someone has asked me to evaluate Final Fantasy VII, the original game, but when I sit down to play it I'm playing the Remake. I'm still not quite grasping what the Planet is doing. It's not simply reviewing a film that has already been filmed; it's re-filming, but somehow wants to end up with exactly the same movie?
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
But if humans can make different choices in this time loop, how does that help the Planet judge whether the choices they made before the loop occured have redeemed them or not? It's as if someone has asked me to evaluate Final Fantasy VII, the original game, but when I sit down to play it I'm playing the Remake. I'm still not quite grasping what the Planet is doing. It's not simply reviewing a film that has already been filmed; it's re-filming, but somehow wants to end up with exactly the same movie?

Because the choices and decisions that happened before, will ultimately line up with what the Arbiters of Fate see as the destined course. Because the Arbiters come from it.

That's why they are described as guiding and protecting the destiny that created them. They are manifested by it, they protect it and then they ultimately render judgment on it via the planet.

The planet's will, the Lifestream, is ultimately concluding based on the observation and experience of what went down, if it wants to continue to exist. It's a more direct and tangible expression of the decision the planet made in 1997 when Holy chose to spare humanity and give them a chance of redemption. That's what Holy exists to do and it will literally Remake the actual world to see if the projected course is actually worth saving humanity for.

Except now, Cloud and the others... And even Sephiroth have a chance to make the Remake what they want because it's no longer a simple 1:1 re-do of their adventure. It's bigger than that.
 
So the Planet has created a time loop to review events and form a judgement, kind of like watching an action replay to see whether the goal-scorer was offside or not, and Holy enables it to do this. The purpose is to decide whether humanity should be saved or not.

And yet events in the time loop can alter, because this isn't an video-recorded replay, it's a live action replay, a re-enactment if you will. Human beings retain their free will. And this involves a risk that the Planet will not be judging humanity on what they previously did, but on what they may choose to do this time around. But they can't actually be allowed to choose differently this time around, otherwise the judgement won't be... fair? They're basically being compelled to re-enact everything they did so that the Planet can... have more time to think it over? Because the Planet wasn't paying attention the first time?

And so the Planet generates the Arbiters of Fate to make sure nobody choose differently from what they chose the first time.

Just... why? It's very complex and clever, but it's also meaningless. There's no message embedded here, nothing actually worth thinking about, unlike the themes of identity, memory, life, loss, and enviromentalism that informed the OG.

Sorry, Mako. I really do think it is brilliant in way, incredibly convoluted and imaginative, but I don't see what I gain from being exposed to these ideas. (not from you, I mean. From SE).

Edited to add: this set-up seems to negate any possibility of redemption or atonement, which was such a big element of the OG and the Compilation too. The error you make once is the error to which you are committed for all eternity. Second chances are merely an illusion.
 

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
Well, if SE really goes on Mako's or similar route, they can try to go into many other themes. Free will (the Price of Freedom?), humans behaviour of unpredictability that is good and bad, and even second chances as you yourself put it. This very well maybe the chance that humanity (represented by Cloud amd the gang) took to make it better. I'm kinda just rambling, but there are a lot of themes that they might find with whichever route they go. That isnt really the big problem here. I'd reckon the execution is something we are all worried about.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
So the Planet has created a time loop to review events and form a judgement, kind of like watching an action replay to see whether the goal-scorer was offside or not, and Holy enables it to do this. The purpose is to decide whether humanity should be saved or not.

And yet events in the time loop can alter, because this isn't an video-recorded replay, it's a live action replay, a re-enactment if you will. Human beings retain their free will. And this involves a risk that the Planet will not be judging humanity on what they previously did, but on what they may choose to do this time around. But they can't actually be allowed to choose differently this time around, otherwise the judgement won't be... fair? They're basically being compelled to re-enact everything they did so that the Planet can... have more time to think it over? Because the Planet wasn't paying attention the first time?

It's a remaking of events. :monster:

After all, there's a double meaning towards the title "Remake" regarding FFVII. I think I see what they're talking about here regarding that. It's a literal remake not just in terms of the product, and design philosophy guiding it.. But narratively as well.

Because of what went down in Part 1, Cloud and the others actually can choose differently this time. Hence why I think there's the theme of "the future is a blank page." Because going by what went down previously, it's very possible humanity would have been judged and found wanting. Maybe this is why there was a last minute miracle and humanity was ultimately saved at the last minute by the planet by the Lifestream. We don't know. But it'd be an interesting way of tying it together through the player's own experience and choice to see things through once again. A way of making it impact the narrative.

The planet wouldn't haven really paying full attention the first time because it's only a bystander and victim of the life that inhabits it. The planet has never been proactive, only reactive. Like a system meant to perpetuate and protect itself, not actually fully choose. Simply along for the ride. This is why Holy is considered "judgment." Because it would make the planet decide who lives, and who goes. It's why Bugenhagen said Holy was a risk.

Just... why? It's very complex and clever, but it's also meaningless. There's no message embedded here, nothing actually worth thinking about, unlike the themes of identity, memory, life, loss, and enviromentalism that informed the OG.

Sorry, Mako. I really do think it is brilliant in way, incredibly convoluted and imaginative, but I don't see what I gain from being exposed to these ideas. (not from you, I mean. From SE).

Because this is in essence what a Remake is, on a reality based level. The writers would now simply be taking the step of working it into the narrative.

Why do consumers and audiences enjoy Remakes?

Because they want to re-experience and re-evaluate a previous narrative that existed before. They want to re-watch it, re-experience, and see it again with new eyes to judge it, enjoy it, consume it, etc. They wish to re-visit the same experience to witness it unfold before them with new eyes. They want to see it closer, more realized in proper fidelity, with new elements, changes, etc. But the problem is, is no Remake can ever be a perfect re-creation of what was before, unless it's just a copy. And even when it's a copy, there still is difference due to the context, environment and time period that surrounds it. Those type of experiences never get 100% recreated.

So the writers are leaning into that, and demonstrating that theme within the narrative itself. It's as if the characters themselves are being given a chance to have their own Remake and not simply be passengers along for the ride of a recreation of their previous experience. It's not just a simple retelling. It's a remake, in every way.

Edited to add: this set-up seems to negate any possibility of redemption or atonement, which was such a big element of the OG and the Compilation too. The error you make once is the error to which you are committed for all eternity. Second chances are merely an illusion.

If anything, it actually does set up that possibility because things can change. This is why Aerith is no longer a simple bystander carried along by her fate. This is why the characters are being more expressive and doing choices that would never have been done before. We see this collision of wills opposing what's "supposed to be" throughout the Remake. They don't want to just sit by quietly and let things happen the way they are. Wedge's entire spiel during the Plate Collapse is indicative of this. Aerith telling him that regardless, it's always important to try and know you've done all you can, reflects this. This is exactly the theme they're wishing to explore here. By destroying the Arbiters of Fate, yes. Second chances are very real. I think that's part of the motivation behind teasing Zack having survived his last stand in the ending.

Well, if SE really goes on Mako's or similar route, they can try to go into many other themes. Free will (the Price of Freedom?), humans behaviour of unpredictability that is good and bad, and even second chances as you yourself put it. This very well maybe the chance that humanity (represented by Cloud amd the gang) took to make it better. I'm kinda just rambling, but there are a lot of themes that they might find with whichever route they go. That isnt really the big problem here. I'd reckon the execution is something we are all worried about.

I definitely see that being the case. This is something that was ultimately examined and shown already so I certainly see it being a thing later on.

It's also probably the reason why Rufus is able to see the Arbiters of Fate. He's the only Shinra member who is shown connected to them. Because given his future and connection to events that will happen down the line, he's an important actor regarding what will go down for the planet.
 
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But the Planet decided the first time around that humanity was worth saving. Unless SE ditch ACC, which we know they won't because they're so attached to it, the Planet is going to make the same decision the 2nd time around, unless Cloud and Co. fuck up.

This review mechanism that springs into action when Holy is activated sounds like God saying, "I'm now going to review your past life to see if you go to heaven or hell, but with this twist: while I'm reviewing, you simultaneously get a chance for a do-over - except you don't really, because my angels are going to stop you from doing anything differently. Only they might not. Oh, and I already decided you're going to heaven, so whatever. Just don't fuck up - OMIGOD here comes Satan! How did he get in here? He's going to fuck everything up. Fuck it."

I don't see how anything interesting about free will can be said in such a scenario. We already know the exact series of events and choices that are necessary to lead to the outcome that is ACC. If Cloud & Co deviate in any way from the timeline they have already lived, then it's logical to assume that the future seen in ACC would no longer happen. This is what I mean when I say that this scenario does not offer them any genuine second chances. Now, I don't care if this Remake leads us to a future different from the one we saw in ACC. I'd be fine with that. However, I got the impression SE have taken the ACC future as canon for this Remake, which means no other outcome is possible.

Stiil, maybe they'll surprise us all and ditch it.

I have no objections to Square remaking FFVII in creative ways and taking it new directions. My issue isn't with the notion that Cloud & Co. are reliving a part of their lifeline that they've already lived. I'm fine with that. My issue is with this Holy review mechanism. It's inconsistent, a bit incoherent, and unnecessarily complicated.

I can definitely see the party figuring out that Aerith died first time around, and therefore, in this do-ever, trying everything in their power to save her. From their POV, her death would be the only thing that"went wrong" first time around. And I can see the narrative leading them to the agonising realisation that she has to die in order to save the world. I think I've made it pretty clear how much I hate the willing sacrifice trope, but if they're really going down the narrative route you suggest, Mako - and I have no reason to think they aren't - I don't see what alternatives they have.
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
But the Planet decided the first time around that humanity was worth saving. Unless SE ditch ACC, which we know they won't because they're so attached to it, the Planet is going to make the same decision the 2nd time around, unless Cloud and Co. fuck up.

Yes, the planet did before.

Maybe this is going to show us why :monster:

Since this is going to be in essence a separate universe from the OG, this would explain how it's separated. It's a timeloop extent universe that was used by the planet to judge the worth of humanity, and ultimately it saw there was hope and reason for redemption. And from there it proceeds to go forward.

This review mechanism that springs into action when Holy is activated sounds like God saying, "I'm now going to review your past life to see if you go to heaven or hell, but with this twist: while I'm reviewing, you simultaneously get a chance for a do-over - except you don't really, because my angels are going to stop you from doing anything differently. Only they might not. Oh, and I already decided you're going to heaven, so whatever. Just don't fuck up - OMIGOD here comes Satan! How did he get in here? He's going to fuck everything up. Fuck it."

I don't see how anything interesting about free will can be said in such a scenario.

The do-over wasn't intended. The means of do-over happened because Sephiroth, a being that is not under the control of the planet or it's systems, interfered with this process and created abnormalities with his very presence. He has been able to exeret influence that resulted in him successfully piercing the veil and nearly taking over the planet's own agent of control.

That's why the singularity happened and the fight against the Arbiters of Fate went down. And that's why Sephiroth was able to take control of them. Had he managed to succeed, the Remake universe would have been consumed by Meteor, destroyed, and then Sephiroth would have won it all.

But because Cloud and the others won, they destroyed the Arbiters of Fate which sent the entire script up for revision. And Sephiroth, the Sephiroth who exists within the present Remake universe, now has a chance to win since he's going to continue his ambition as well.
 
That makes more sense. When I originally read your explanation, you made it sound as if the Planet was consciously allowing the possibility of a do-over within its review mechanism, which was just... odd.

When you say "piercing the veil" what do you mean?

PS Kind of ironic that it's Sephiroth who restores the party's free will. Not his intended outcome, I'm sure.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Smooth Criminal
That makes more sense. When I originally read your explanation, you made it sound as if the Planet was consciously allowing the possibility of a do-over within its review mechanism, which was just... odd.

When you say "piercing the veil" what do you mean?

PS Kind of ironic that it's Sephiroth who restores the party's free will. Not his intended outcome, I'm sure.

When Sephiroth literally cut his way into the realm of the Whispers and created that Singularity space. He just simply cut his way into the makeshift space where the ultimate Arbiter of Fate, Whisper Harbinger, resided in.

Yup! But Sephiroth isn't new to creating unintended consequences that ultimately fuck him up :monster:

See Aerith in the Lifestream, Cloud Strife in general, etc etc.
 
Oh my god Sephiroth is such a loser amirite?

Anyway I'm quite excited now to see what the rest of the Remake will bring. I still have my doubts that it will be anything like as profound as the original. I didn't necessarily want it to re-hash the messages of 1997. The OG did a great job with that already. Doing it all over again in HD wasn't necessary. I just want whatever new things the Remake seeks to communicate to be equally profound. I don't want it to be nothing more than an intellectual exercise in untangling time (and TBH I get enough talk about free will and determinism in my day job). I want it to speak to my soul.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I have no objections to Square remaking FFVII in creative ways and taking it new directions. My issue isn't with the notion that Cloud & Co. are reliving a part of their lifeline that they've already lived. I'm fine with that. My issue is with this Holy review mechanism. It's inconsistent, a bit incoherent, and unnecessarily complicated.

Where do I co-sign?

Not exactly.

My theory is, when Holy first clashed with Meteor, that's the end point of the loop. The beginning of the loop is unknown. But it at least stretches as far back as Zack making his last stand in the ending of CC. Essentially the planet is observing the events that led up to the crisis of Meteor and determining if it's all worth saving.

The reason why the "future" seems fated for destruction ("Seven seconds til' the end") is because the end of the Remake's world is Meteor on the cusp of contact with the planet.

On the off-chance your overall theory of the planet's life flashing before its eyes at the end of its life is correct, why would it be that moment rather than, say, some far-off moment in the future when the Omega effect is activated, the planet is deciding whether it should allow Chaos to be released, and the planet is considering whether it should have the Lifestream make for the stars or try to stick it out and make its current existence work?

But because Cloud and the others won ...

I still don't think they did. :monster:
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
So I saw critiscism that if Sephiroth is able to travel through time and influence the past, why doesn't he just Kill Cloud when he's a child and avoid all of the issues Cloud creates for him? Now we know that the whispers would just revive him anyway, thanks to the scene with Barret, so that was never an option. Now that the whispers are gone, though, what's to stop him from "nothin personnel, kid" -ing Cloud before Cloud even knows what's happening? It'd be easier than his current, extremely convoluted plan.

I guess its like this:
Capture2.JPG
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
On the off-chance your overall theory of the planet's life flashing before its eyes at the end of its life is correct, why would it be that moment rather than, say, some far-off moment in the future when the Omega effect is activated, the planet is deciding whether it should allow Chaos to be released, and the planet is considering whether it should have the Lifestream make for the stars or try to stick it out and make its current existence work?

Because it's the Meteor Crisis that invoked it. Aerith prayed for Holy's intervention to stop Meteor, not Omega. The moment Holy clashes with Meteor is the ultimate fate where Holy and the planet decide whether this is worth living anymore or humanity should be judged.

I still don't think they did. :monster:

They won on the front of preventing Sephiroth from destroying the world of the Remake, in his bid to defy destiny. They also defeated the Whispers, which is a double-edged sword. But they didn't ultimately defeat Sephiroth.

So I saw critiscism that if Sephiroth is able to travel through time and influence the past, why doesn't he just Kill Cloud when he's a child and avoid all of the issues Cloud creates for him? Now we know that the whispers would just revive him anyway, thanks to the scene with Barret, so that was never an option. Now that the whispers are gone, though, what's to stop him from "nothin personnel, kid" -ing Cloud before Cloud even knows what's happening? It'd be easier than his current, extremely convoluted plan.

I guess its like this:


Sephiroth cannot arbitrarily traverse time. He's trapped within the framework of the Remake, however he was able to come close to taking full control of the planet's destiny and crush the Remake world with Meteor, but he ultimately failed in Part 1.

But no, he isn't just given carte blanche capability to go to any point in time. The reason why he asks Cloud's help to defy destiny at the end is because he's unable to now make a play at anything anymore and now must simply wait for them to reach the end point of the loop. He exists now only at the Edge of Creation. Hence why he's "The Sephiroth at the End of the Book."
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Because it's the Meteor Crisis that invoked it. Aerith prayed for Holy's intervention to stop Meteor, not Omega. The moment Holy clashes with Meteor is the ultimate fate where Holy and the planet decide whether this is worth living anymore or humanity should be judged.

I'm not talking about Holy, though. I'm talking about the idea of the remake's narrative being the planet's life flashing through its own memory just before death.

Mako said:
They won on the front of preventing Sephiroth from destroying the world of the Remake, in his bid to defy destiny.

Eh, we'll see eventually.
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Smooth Criminal
I'm not talking about Holy, though. I'm talking about the idea of the remake's narrative being the planet's life flashing through its own memory just before death.

That's the purpose of Holy I theorized.

Holy is not just Holy.. It's "Holy Judgment." The planet through the ultimate white magic of judgment, is judging the circumstances that invoked the spell, and determining if the life of the planet are worthy to be spared. The act of invoking Holy is a risk that puts those who call for it's guidance at risk of being judged guilty and summarily punished.

It's sorta like how the summoners on the Mist continent decided it'd be a good idea to invoke Alexander on Gaia, and Alexander proceeded to go mad and "judge" the summoners by destroying everything. They resolved never to invoke Alexander again due to the risk of Alexander not obeying, and shattered the gem used to invoke it. Or like how the primal Alexander is capable of going through time to manipulate it for it's own ends and thereby make itself whole again and summarily punish those who would oppose it.



Eh, we'll see eventually.

In a decade more or less. :monster:
 
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