SPOILERS Predictions for Part 2? (*Open Spoilers for Part 1*)

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
It's worth pointing out that Elfe/Falicia wasn't the one who came up with AVALANCHE's ideology. If anything... she was a causality of it and a means to an end. The real person behind AVALANCHE was Furhito and he's... very dead... by the end of BC. If anything Veld and Elfie are more loyal to the Turks still because the Turks are the ones who made sure AVALANCHE's plans didn't go through... which would have resulted in Elfie's death.

The AVALANCHE members I would expect to meet in Cosmo Canyon would be the guys who were working with Furhito. Who... let's just say they have the mentality of "humanity is the worst thing for the planet ever and humanity should be wiped out as a result". Which... interestingly... is kinda there in the OG in Bugenhagin's thinking.
Like, when did he wake up from that, when did he started his Reunion plan? Was it while Zack escaped Shinra Manor? When Zack confronted Genesis? Way Before? After? I wonder how story subtleties like these could play a role going forward. Probably a mistery forever?
It's important to remember all the Sephrioth Clones are kinda linked back to Sephrioth. What they know, he knows... and Cloud is a Sephrioth Clone. He's more or less a sleeper agent for Sephrioth. Only, unlike all the other Sephrioth Clones, he's the one Sephrioth wants to mess with the most. So... anything that AVALANCHE knows that Cloud knows? Sephiroth knows. The Lifestream doesn't have anything do with it; Jenova does.

My personal take on the "when" of the OG was that Sephiroth waited until Cloud was in Midgar to start his Reunion plan to specifically mess with Cloud. Cloud as always been the one glaring weakness in Sephrioth's plans. Otherwise he could have started whenever... which is a constant theme of Sephrioth. He could have easily won everything he's tried to do if he hadn't wanted to mess with Cloud.
 

Sephiroth Crescent

Way Ahead of the Plot
The problem is... Nibel-2-Nibel is still a large amount of resources to create.

So, let's see what the wait is... unless they secretly have more done than they're willing to say at this point.
2021 will probably be just the multi-plat release. They could add extras to that release, or just release the same as the PS4 everywhere.
But then 2022 would be Part 1 with extras for PS5 (and maybe exclusive again), then later they start showing some glimpse of Part 2?

Off-topic:
Personally, I think it has to be when Genesis is "cleansed" by Minerva a la final fight in Crisis Core. Cloud and Zack still have a bit of their journey to go, but that would track with my own understanding fo the Jenova-noosphere.
Cured from degradation, yes. Cleansed from Jenova, nope (DoC secret ending).
/Off-topic
 

waw

Pro Adventurer
Wait, why is Genesis not cured of Jenova? The wing? Hmm. It's odd the planet would heal/cure a Jenova-entity and not remove the cells.

--

It is a lot of new resources, you're absolutely right, there's no way around it, no matter how short they make it.
 

waw

Pro Adventurer
Genesis never had Jenova Cells.

He can pop out the wing because Jenova's genetic make up was imprinted on his human cells, and his mutated cells which carry Jenova's genes can manifest some of Jenova's abilities but they suffer a huge drawback using those powers.
Right, he has Gillian's Cells... G Cells, but are we just splitting hairs here at some point?
Genesis has Jenova material in him, that manifests in Jenova powers/traits, like the wing.

Nonetheless, Genesis is a Jenova-infused? being. Is it safe to assume he is not cured of this, but also spared the Reunion theory? How?
 

Sephiroth Crescent

Way Ahead of the Plot
Genesis never had Jenova Cells.

He can pop out the wing because Jenova's genetic make up was imprinted on his human cells, and his mutated cells which carry Jenova's genes can manifest some of Jenova's abilities but they suffer a huge drawback using those powers.
Ah, you're right! And I was wrong!
Haven't played CC in years, nor do I have access to its Ultimania so I probably forgot about that?
Right, he has Gillian's Cells... G Cells, but are we just splitting hairs here at some point?
Genesis has Jenova material in him, that manifests in Jenova powers/traits, like the wing.

Nonetheless, Genesis is a Jenova-infused? being. Is it safe to assume he is not cured of this, but also spared the Reunion theory? How?

:shifty:

Hmmm...
Can the CC Ultimania shed some light? Somebody?

PS: Yeah, off-topic...
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
No, Genesis does not. If he did, why the heck was he obsessively searching for Jenova cells?

Genesis' genes inherited the gene expression and mutations of someone with Jenova cells, and thereby gained abilities reminiscent of Jenova. He's a human cosplaying/manifesting/pretending to be a Jenova specimen.

Sephiroth is a Jenova specimen cosplaying as a human.

They're completely different in terms of powers and abilities. Genesis gained powers at a great cost but he's still human. Sephiroth is... More than human, by a lot. Genesis is not a "Jenova being." He was a product of the Jenova Project but he was a failure.
 

waw

Pro Adventurer
No, Genesis does not. If he did, why the heck was he obsessively searching for Jenova cells?

Genesis' genes inherited the gene expression and mutations of someone with Jenova cells, and thereby gained abilities reminiscent of Jenova. He's a human cosplaying/manifesting/pretending to be a Jenova specimen.

Sephiroth is a Jenova specimen cosplaying as a human.

They're completely different in terms of powers and abilities. Genesis gained powers at a great cost but he's still human. Sephiroth is... More than human, by a lot. Genesis is not a "Jenova being." He was a product of the Jenova Project but he was a failure.

Thanks, Mako. I suppose I'm a bit confused, still as this undermines my understanding of Genesis.

I thought he went for Sephiroth because his cells were stronger and it'd cure his degredation, or at least, so he believed. I'm not sure if they really would have or not. When one of his copies eats Zack's hair, he turns into a monster. Degredation doesn't seem truly cure to me, or if it is, it's a monstrous cost.

Is Genesis incapable of feeling Jenova's pull, like Sephiroth does? All of his copies struck me as being mentally connected, but I suppose that's never explicitly stated. Hmm. I'll dig back into the CC materials. If you have anywhere specific I should look to understand this, I'd appreciate it.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Genesis' Copies were SOLDIERs, if you recall, so they probably do, but they're also connected to Genesis due to being copified by him. Genesis more than likely does not get effected by Reunion, or at least not at the level of any sort of Sephiroth Copy. He possesses a strong will and he wouldn't succumb.

To illustrate the difference between the two, Sephiroth's cells are essentially Jenova cells. Genesis does not share that type of connection or type of modification.
 

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
I was under the impression that Genesis absolutely has Jenova cells. Gillian was injected with them, then he was injected with hers. Just that the G-type cells are of shitty quality and cause degradation. Hence the need for S-type cells to stop that
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
It should be noted there are disputes within the FF7 Lore Community about what Mako is saying based on other factors from the Compilation, including CC. SOLDIERs all get Jenova Cells added to them as part of becoming SOLDIERs (this goes back as far as the OG and CC mentions it as well). And Angeal and Genesis did become SOLDIERs. So it's jsut as likely they got more Jenova Cells added to them later in life in addition to whatever they got from Gillian.

And it is canon that one of the major factors regarding how integrated Jenova traits are is when in life people get Jenova Cells. SOLDIERs don't get a lot because they're teenagers (at least). Sephrioth got tons because he was still developing in the womb.

Angeal and Genesis are in a weird category where they were exposed to some one elses' Jenova exposed Cells in the womb. And then might have gotten exposed to actual Jenova Cells later on. We're still not clear on that last point, but there's good arguments for either scenario. The first point is very much canon.

What is also canon is that the Planet doesn't go around healing the effect Jenova has on people (at least, no the negative effects). Cloud is still crazy strong in ACC after his geostigma is cured. Genesis still has his One Wing in DoC. In fact... the Planet tends to "win" against Jenova's Cells in the long run. We flat out see part of Jenova and Kadaj fall into the Lifestream in The Kids Are Alright... and the Planet basically just dissolves them out of existence.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Genesis has Jenova's genes. They're the genetic hereditary markers of Jenova cells, put into a human's DNA. Which allows him to manifest Jenova-like abilities but not have actual, true Jenova cells. That's why he sought them.

G-Type SOLDIER

Those created by Project G, and used to refers to Angeal and Genesis
(in a broader sense, it also includes Hollander, who had applied the
same treatment to himself during the game).

The Copy ability they possess is the influence of Jenova’s own
abilities to convert its target into a monster by implanting it with a
virus it generates within its own body, and to mimic the form of
people the target knows through reading their memories and emotions.
However, as the Jenova cells are not fixed in their bodies, a G-Type
SOLDIER will succumb to degradation symptoms as time passes.

Q2-3: What are the crucial differences in the experimental processes for those born from Project S and those born from Project G?

A2-3: Put simply, it’s a difference between when the Jenova cells were injected into the body, and the concentration and purity of the Jenova cells.

Sephiroth was implanted with Jenova cells at the embryonic stage. Angeal was born from an ovum from Gillian, who has Jenova cells, and developed in her womb. Genesis was born from a fertilized egg cell unrelated to Jenova, and at the embryonic stage was implanted with genes from Gillian, who has Jenova cells.

In other words, because Sephiroth received Jenova cells with a high level of purity at an early stage of development, he ends up inheriting Jenova’s abilities the best.

Genesis does not have Jenova's cells, he has its genes passed on via heredity. I don't even think he got the full SOLDIER surgery, because if he did, he wouldn't have suffered the blowback of degeneration. They may have just given him mako infusion. It's not like he'd have known anyways.
 

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
The quotes don't necessarily read to me as "hasn't got Jenova cells" though :monster:

However, as the Jenova cells are not fixed in their bodies

Wording here is a bit odd. What exactly does fixed mean in this context? I could interpret that as "they don't stay in the body forever but degrade over time, causing degradation of the body itself"

Genesis was born from a fertilized egg cell unrelated to Jenova, and at the embryonic stage was implanted with genes from Gillian, who has Jenova cells.

Yep, nothing new here. But I would say that if he got injected with someone's crap that had Jenova cells...then that person would have Jenova cells too.
The "he has her genes, not her cells" seems like an odd and unnecessary distinction to make.
This part for example "Put simply, it’s a difference between when the Jenova cells were injected into the body, and the concentration and purity of the Jenova cells." does seem to imply that G-types all have her cells and it comes down to concentration and purity, which would be shit in Genesis due to the roundabout way of him being injected with someone elses genetic material that included those cells.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
As for where to go for info on all of this other than the Crisis Core script... the Crisis Core Complete Guide Keyword Collection has a ton of info. The Crisis Core Ultimania Scenario Q & A also has very interesting things to say about it. And even the OG script has some information on what goes on with creating SOLDIERs. The Crisis Core Keyword Guide in particular is a treasure trove of content when it comes to explaining what the heck is going on in Crisis Core.

Examples in no particular order...
Crisis Core Keyword Guide said:
Angeal Copy
Subjects of the copy technique where Angeal’s cells were used. Within the game, this includes a variety of monsters and Lazard. When using monsters as the subjects, they were unable to take on Angeal’s form, and instead an image of Angeal’s face appeared to be grafted to a part of their body. Incidentally, though not all of the Angeal Copies that appear in the game are monsters, Angeal’s cells were used primary to make copies from monsters while Genesis’ cells where never used to make copies from monsters.

Furthermore, Angeal Copies do have an ability to call to one another, but they can only have a general understanding of each other’s situations. An example of this ability is how Lazard was able to coax the Angeal Copy living in Aerith’s church to come help him in Banora.

Copy Technology
Technology which, by transplanting the cells of a G-Type SOLDIER into a physically strong subject, copies the donor’s abilities, appearance, and characteristics onto the subject. However it does not always yield perfect results, and differences in appearance and ability may arise based on the subject’s latent potential. For example, the reason the Genesis and Angeal Copies in the game seem weaker than their originals is due to the subject’s latent potential being inferior to the originals, and are unable to fully utilise the abilities they received.

The influence of the copying process also extends to the subject’s mind, and if the subject’s will is weak their will is completely taken over by that of the cell donor and leads to the breakdown of their sense of self, like the SOLDIER operatives who become Genesis Copies. Conversely, if they are strong willed, they can maintain their identity while still being influenced by the will of the cell donor, such as Lazard as an Angeal Copy.

Genesis Copy
Subjects of the copy technique where Genesis’ cells were used. Though they are all humans their individual differences become more prominent during the process, as seen with the G-Assault and the G-Warrior, showing how an individual’s latent abilities can become integrated into the changes in form and strength that takes place during the copy process. The rate of their degradation also varies from individual to individual, along with influences from the state of Genesis’ cells, and thus his own degradation quickens the degradation of all Genesis Copies.

Hollander’s Degradation
During the scenes in Gongaga Hollander’s degradation is revealed, because he used the same cells [from Gillian] he had originally transplanted into Genesis, and thus converted himself into a G-Series SOLDIER. The reason why his degradation is progressing at a remarkable rate and why his one wing is so small is because he does not have the same physical strength as Genesis.

SOLDIER Degradation
A symptom of a particular flaw inherit within the G-Series SOLDIERs and their copies. It is due to an imperfect integration of Jenova cells into their bodies, and the symptoms worsen as their genetic information is spread to other beings. The first signs of degradation are changes in skin quality and hair color, and as the body’s natural immune system is damaged the subject’s skin and muscle tissue begin to degrade. Furthermore, the subject looses their ability to restrain themselves from giving in to brutal outbursts, which can temporarily raise their skills in combat, but they run the risk of eventually devolving into monsters.

G-Type SOLDIER
Those created by Project G, and used to refers to Angeal and Genesis (in a broader sense, it also includes Hollander, who had applied the same treatment to himself during the game).

The Copy ability they possess is the influence of Jenova’s own abilities to convert its target into a monster by implanting it with a virus it generates within its own body, and to mimic the form of people the target knows through reading their memories and emotions. However, as the Jenova cells are not fixed in their bodies, a G-Type SOLDIER will succumb to degradation symptoms as time passes.

S-Cell
Jenova cells which Hojo treated with a special process for use with the Sephiroth Copies. From the initial “S” and the fact that the cells are used in the Sephiroth Copy experiments, it is surmised that they are related to Sephiroth’s own cells. Within the game, Genesis believed that his degradation can be halted if he obtains these cells and injects them into his body, but in actuality when a Copy took in the cells, rather than being cured, the process is sped up. However, the cells used then were Zack’s, and it was not attempted with Sephiroth’s pure S-Cells or Cloud’s, which were considered pure.

One Black Wing
The wing which Genesis has on his left shoulder in this game, and which Sephiroth has on his right shoulder in “FFVII” and “AC”. The mechanism behind sprouting the wings remains unexplained. According to the development staff, the wings were made black based on the notion of good and evil.

Genesis Army
An army formed by Genesis, Hollander, and Lazard, and comprised of Genesis and Angeal Copies. It was based out of Banora and Modeoheim. The people who were turned into Genesis Copies were those who Genesis took with him during the Mass SOLDIER Desertion.

Genesis Copy (don't ask me why there's two definitions of this in the same collection)
Copies created with Genesis’ cells, utilising the Copy Technology. Just as humans each have individual differences in their growth, so too do Copies. Depending on the latent potential of the subject changes will arise in the abilities and appearance they gain, for example with the G Assailant and G Warrior. Likewise, there are individual variances in their degradation, but this is also largely influenced by the condition of Genesis’ cells, and when his cells themselves have degraded, the speed of degradation for all Genesis Copies is also sped up.

Jenova
The “life form excavated from the earth” mentioned in the “Ancients Project Outline” document in Scene 03-18 refers to “Jenova”, an intelligent life form known as the “calamity from the skies” which crashed into the Knowlespole on a meteorite approximately 2000 years before. Jenova has an instinctive drive to destroy planets, and utilising its abilities to inject a virus into its target and transform them into monsters, and to mimic other forms according to its opponent’s thoughts, it drove the Ancients to near extinction. It was later sealed away by a counter-attack by the Ancients, and remained dormant in the ground until it was exhumed 30 years ago.

Its relation to Sephiroth is like that of a parent and child, and in “FFVII” it continued to work with Sephiroth to summon Meteor and destroy the planet. After the final battle it was defeated by Cloud’s team and lost its physical body, but its mimetic legacy lived on within the Lifestream, and in “AC” it created remnants such as Kadaj.

Jenova Cells
The cells from Jenova used in the Jenova Project and SOLDIER surgical procedures. Those who have been injected with these cells undergo physiological changes such as improvement of their physical abilities and partially receiving Jenova’s abilities. However, mentally weak people are unable to withstand Jenova’s will, and it sometimes brings about mental abnormalities.

Jenova Project
A project started by Gast approximately 30 years previous, when Jenova was excavated from the earth. This project, also known by its other name of the ‘Ancients Project’, involved using cells from Jenova to artificially create a new generation of Ancients, with the ultimate goal being to make them search for the Promised Land. Project S and G are part of this same project.

This project was started under a fundamentally mistaken idea, that Jenova was an Ancient. When he realised this, Gast quit his post and disappeared from Shinra.
Yes, this has a ton of good reference material in it
Crisis Core Scenario Q & A said:
Q2-3: What are the crucial differences in the experimental processes for those born from Project S and those born from Project G?

A2-3: Put simply, it’s a difference between when the Jenova cells were injected into the body, and the concentration and purity of the Jenova cells.

Sephiroth was implanted with Jenova cells at the embryonic stage. Angeal was born from an ovum from Gillian, who has Jenova cells, and developed in her womb. Genesis was born from a fertilized egg cell unrelated to Jenova, and at the embryonic stage was implanted with genes from Gillian, who has Jenova cells.

In other words, because Sephiroth received Jenova cells with a high level of purity at an early stage of development, he ends up inheriting Jenova’s abilities the best.

Q5-2: After Genesis’ wound, Angeal helps stop Sephiroth from donating blood. From the looks of things, could it be that at the time of the wound that Angeal knew about his and Genesis’ birth?

A5-2: At the time of the blood donation, Angeal did not know the secret of their birth. In the production, it seems as though when Angeal stops Sephiroth and volunteers himself, Sephiroth and Angeal are both making their requests, “I’ll do it” “No, I’ll do it” in effect each blocking each other.

Finally, Hollander declines with, “Sephiroth can’t preform the blood transfusion” and instead selects Angeal. With Angeal not thinking that, “He selected me because I’m a G-Type SOLDIER,” but rather coming to the conclusion of, “Sephiroth can’t preform the blood transfusion so he selected me.”
As if all that wasn't enough... here's Cloud's commentary in the OG on how SOLDIERs are made!
FF7: OG said:
Cloud
I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER.
Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult.
It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER.
You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy.
Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......
For better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER.
It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion.
But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing.
What's really neat is how all the stuff in Crisis Core about normal SOLDIERs doesn't retcon any of this.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
The quotes don't necessarily read to me as "hasn't got Jenova cells" though :monster:

However, as the Jenova cells are not fixed in their bodies

Wording here is a bit odd. What exactly does fixed mean in this context? I could interpret that as "they don't stay in the body forever but degrade over time, causing degradation of the body itself"

Genesis was born from a fertilized egg cell unrelated to Jenova, and at the embryonic stage was implanted with genes from Gillian, who has Jenova cells.

Yep, nothing new here. But I would say that if he got injected with someone's crap that had Jenova cells...then that person would have Jenova cells too.
The "he has her genes, not her cells" seems like an odd and unnecessary distinction to make.
This part for example "Put simply, it’s a difference between when the Jenova cells were injected into the body, and the concentration and purity of the Jenova cells." does seem to imply that G-types all have her cells and it comes down to concentration and purity, which would be shit in Genesis due to the roundabout way of him being injected with someone elses genetic material that included those cells.


I took it as, actual Jenova cells placed in the body. Fixed is a synonym for "placed."

And the distinction of "genes" versus "cells" is important because that's the key difference that exists with SOLDIER and someone like Sephiroth. Sephiroth's cells are essentially pure Jenova. Someone like Cloud had Jenova cells, actual alien matter, in their bodies.

Genesis did not. He had the genes from Jenova inherited by his own human cells. Like a child who inherits the genes from their parents within their own DNA. A kid doesn't have their parents' actual cells within their bodies. They have their own cells, just with the genes inherited from parents.

This is the key difference that makes Genesis degrade. Carrying Jenova genes and powers with human cells causes an instability that makes the body literally mutate and degrade.
 

Fiz

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Eh?
Yes, I feel that if they want to do 4 parts, then they will end at Nibelheim. Then we could expect some other parts to get expanded on, like Costa del Sol, etc., so that the game will be longer. Since we will see a lot of towns, I do expect a lot of side quests to pop up, as to make sure we'll visit all the areas fully.

Also if they go that route, I expect them to show Yuffie only in part 3 with Wutai, like this they only have to work on 2 new characters for Part 2 and 3. Part 2 we'd have Caith Sith and Vincent - with Vincent maybe not even fully playable - and part 3 we'd get Cid and Yuffie.

While you put a lot of thought into your roadmap, I think its very ambitious and there are some points I'd raise.

I think we are looking at 4 games total, with part 2 ending in Nibelheim. I don't think we will be visiting Wutai in part 2 either, there are a lot of locations and they have to build them. Given the additional emphasis on Wutai we have had in part 1, and how its presented as an opposition to Midgar, I suspect its going to be a much larger location with more new content (i.e. some kind of Shinra vs Wutai confrontation). So I suspect Wutai will be in part 3 and form some new arc.

So:
Part 2 Kalm to Nibelhiem
Part 3 Nibelhiem to TOA or City of the Ancients including Wutai
Part 4 TOA/City of the Ancients till the end

I know that sounds like a slightly weird breakdown because it seems like a lot compressed into part 4. However, there is method to this. Once we have reached TOA most of the world and locations are covered, there really isn't a lot in terms of world to create. They're going to want some new locations. Also, after City of the Ancients there is a lot of revisiting locations, back and forthing and so on (especially in the huge materia quest). Most of your time at this point is spent exploring, side quests and navigating back and forth. FFVII really is front loaded and in that kind of structure they can repace the whole thing. Plus I have a feeling they will fork the plot, with the world mostly built they will have a lot of freedom to make story content.
 
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Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
*rages about people posting other stuff while collating material*
The quotes don't necessarily read to me as "hasn't got Jenova cells" though :monster:

However, as the Jenova cells are not fixed in their bodies

Wording here is a bit odd. What exactly does fixed mean in this context? I could interpret that as "they don't stay in the body forever but degrade over time, causing degradation of the body itself"
Okay, so... this is where biochemistry and Jenova gets really nitty-gritty on the details. "Jenova Cells" are the actual cells that make up Jenova. "Jenova genes" are parts of Jenova's DNA. Crisis Core makes it... very clear... that it's possible for Jenova's Genes to be copied in to "non-Jenova Cells" from "Jenova Cells". Which is probably the mechanism that gets used to make people with Jenova Cells stronger. This results in "non-Jenova Cells" with Jenova Genes in them... that can then be used in experiments that dont' involve actual Jenova Cells.

Jenova's actual Cells are somehow all linked up together into a hive mind regardless of where they are in the world. Jenova's Genes... not so much. The trouble with Genesis is that Jenova's Genes aren't... integrated... into his own Cells very well. Largely due to him not getting them from Jenova herself... but from Gillian's Cells. And that causes all kinds of problems for him since the Jenova Genes he does have are all about Jenova's abilities to pass her own genetic material on to other beings. So... Genesis can pass his own genetic material onto other beings... but it costs him something because he doesn't have the rest of the Jenova Genes that would fix the "gaps" in his own genes. Like Genesis and Tsivets.

Angeal is a bit different. He... actually did get exposed to Jenova's Cells while Gillian was pregnant with him. So... he probably got his Jenova Genes from both Gillian (because half of his Genes was from her to begin with) and whatever Jenova Genes got copped into him while he was in Gillian. So Angeal's Jenova abilities are way less broken on his end than Genesis' are. He can "fix" the problems in his own genes that are caused when he passes his own DNA on in a way Genesis can't. Also, since Angeal was in Gillian who had Jenova Cells herself, it's very likely he picked up Jenova Cells himself from that.

In comparison, Sephrioth can't pass any of his own genes on at all. That simply isn't the part of Jenova's Genes that were copied into him (All the "Sephrioth Copies) are made by Hojo without Sephrioth's input). And Sephrioth has way more Jenova Cells in him than Angeal or Genesis do because they were directly injected into him while Lucrecia was pregnant with him.

Where this gets tricky is when you read up on what makes SOLDIER... SOLDIER... which is that they have mako and Jenova Cells injected into them. And... Genesis and Angeal both got into SOLDIER. So... did they get Jenvoa Cells when they went into SOLDIER that or not?

Which is what me and Mako are disagreeing over. No where in Crisis Core (game or ultimanias) does it state that they did or didn't. So it's a total headcanon preference.

What is stated is that Genesis and Angeal were thought to be failures and had no effects from the Jenova Genes they were previously exposed to. And... there's good arguments for why the Science Deparment would want to see what would happen if they got a more direct source of Jenova Genes injected into them. There's also good arguments for the Science Department deciding they would just expose them to mako and see if that does anything either.

What we do know is that some time after Genesis and Angeal got into SODLIER was when they finally started showing signs that they had gotten Jenova Genes from the Project G experiments... and that they might have gotten more Jenova Cells from getting into SOLDIER...
 

waw

Pro Adventurer
I think there's some oddities here we still need to tug on.

Gillian and Lucrecia seem to be equivalents, both were injected with raw, straight up Jenova cells.
Sephiroth and Angeal are somewhat equivalent, born to those who had Jenova cells injected into them.

Genesis is a different thing. He gets cells from Gillian, something somewhat similar to what we'll see with Hojo's nibelheim/Sephiroth Clones project in which he uses S-Cells. (More equivalent would be A-Cells... Angeal Cells) were used. So we're still looking at the purity of the Jenova Cells/concentration and I'm guessing while these three survived, many others died. I'm also assuming that taking Jenova cells is risky and difficult, especially for babies, so the whole use Gillian-cells for Genesis was an attempt at making the process much more likely to succeed.

It still stands that Jenovoids are part of a tiered noosphere where all Jenovoids are telepathically connected. Sephirothoids are more connected to Seph, Angealoids to Angeal, and Genesis Copies to Genesis. But they're all in the larger web of Jenova. This is particularly important because as I understand it, Sephiroth's "mind" has dominated (if not overcome/merged) with Jenova by OG FF7. That leads me to believing Genesis/Angeal, or another equivalent running around would have to telepathically fight Sephiroth for domination/control/independence. Seph should be able to try and influence and control Genesis or any one else with Sephiroth Cells/Jenova Cells, just Cloud is far easier.

The issue here is the "curing" of Jenova, or whatever happens to Genesis and the others by the Planet. They seem almost "cut" out from the Noosphere, but retain biological growth and development. It still leaves unanswered questions.

While Genesis is "cured" from Jenova, it seems to only be the mental link. Do I at least understand that part correct? If so, Genesis in DoC could either be a hero or a villain. But if he shows up during the events of Remake, he'd not be susceptible like Cloud. If Zack is running around, he should be susceptible like Cloud, too.

Also, thanks for clarifying up the Genes part.
 

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
I took it as, actual Jenova cells placed in the body. Fixed is a synonym for "placed."

And the distinction of "genes" versus "cells" is important because that's the key difference that exists with SOLDIER and someone like Sephiroth. Sephiroth's cells are essentially pure Jenova. Someone like Cloud had Jenova cells, actual alien matter, in their bodies.

Genesis did not. He had the genes from Jenova inherited by his own human cells. Like a child who inherits the genes from their parents within their own DNA. A kid doesn't have their parents' actual cells within their bodies. They have their own cells, just with the genes inherited from parents.

This is the key difference that makes Genesis degrade. Carrying Jenova genes and powers with human cells causes an instability that makes the body literally mutate and degrade.

See, this is nonsensical to me to begin with because the genes are the blueprint for the cells that something are made of. So if they have the genetic material, that would create cells that are like Jenova's. Aka Jenova cells.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Jenova's actual Cells are somehow all linked up together into a hive mind regardless of where they are in the world. Jenova's Genes... not so much. The trouble with Genesis is that Jenova's Genes aren't... integrated... into his own Cells very well. Largely due to him not getting them from Jenova herself... but from Gillian's Cells. And that causes all kinds of problems for him since the Jenova Genes he does have are all about Jenova's abilities to pass her own genetic material on to other beings. So... Genesis can pass his own genetic material onto other beings... but it costs him something because he doesn't have the rest of the Jenova Genes that would fix the "gaps" in his own genes.

This is precisely what I'm saying.

Which is what me and Mako are disagreeing over. No where in Crisis Core (game or ultimanias) does it state that they did or didn't. So it's a total headcanon preference.

Right, it doesn't say either way but I'm inclined to believe he didn't because that would be an extreme overcomplication and bizarre element of the CC plot, where Genesis is seeking Jenova cells which he already has. :monster: Something as weird and ironic as that should at least be explained by the narrative. Either way, it fundamentally isn't that important. In the end, the creators just say he only has Jenova's/Gillian's genes and that's why he degenerates. He's lacking in that regard and that is why G-Types are failed specimens of the Jenova Project.

See, this is nonsensical to me to begin with because the genes are the blueprint for the cells that something are made of. So if they have the genetic material, that would create cells that are like Jenova's. Aka Jenova cells.

But Genesis only got the cells from someone who had free-floating Jenova cells, which were then mutated and contaminated. So Genesis by definition does not have perfectly copied genes of Jenova. They're only partial, and not even perfectly integrated inside his own DNA. That's the issue. Genesis' genetic material is like Jenova's but not perfect, which is why he degrades.

While Genesis is "cured" from Jenova, it seems to only be the mental link. Do I at least understand that part correct? If so, Genesis in DoC could either be a hero or a villain. But if he shows up during the events of Remake, he'd not be susceptible like Cloud. If Zack is running around, he should be susceptible like Cloud, too.

...I have no idea what you're talking about regarding a noosphere, lol But he's been cured of his degradation. He's no longer suffering from that condition and debilitation.

Zack is not susceptible to anything, why would he? He's a strong willed SOLDIER. He went through the procedure twice, and his mind didn't break. He's not under the influence of Jenova or Sephiroth because of his strong will.
 

waw

Pro Adventurer
See, this is nonsensical to me to begin with because the genes are the blueprint for the cells that something are made of. So if they have the genetic material, that would create cells that are like Jenova's. Aka Jenova cells.
No. Not all genes have all the material. Look up glowing dogs with jellyfish genes. You can take gene portions and put them in other cells (gene splicing) and not get "the entire thing."

Implanting Jenova cells... certain genes get turned off and on in the body (something about hormones, chemicals, etc). This is why eyeball cells contain the entire dna map of the human body but don't just grow a random kidney in your eyeball. They are instructed through chemicals to shut certain things off.

Genesis, Angeal, Seph, whatever the process they are sharing genes for sure (wing is evidence). The rest is how much of the genes they have, and what's turned on and whatnot. Likely a teen turned soldier like Roche probably won't have the body development to turn every Jenova gene on, and therefore wouldn't have the same potential as Sephiroth.

All that said, it shouldn't be possible for Genesis to have Jenova genes that Sephiroth doesn't. Sephiroth must have those genes, but they may not be turned on.
 

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
But Genesis only got the cells from someone who had free-floating Jenova cells, which were then mutated and contaminated. So he does not have perfect copied genes of Jenova. They're only partial, and not perfectly integrated in his own cells. That's the issue. Genesis' genetic material is like Jenova's but not perfect, which is why he degrades.

Well yeah. He's got the cells but they're shitty. :monster:
 

waw

Pro Adventurer
...I have no idea what you're talking about regarding a noosphere, lol But he's been cured of his degradation. He's no longer suffering from that condition and debilitation.

Zack is not susceptible to anything, why would he? He's a strong willed SOLDIER. He went through the procedure twice, and his mind didn't break. He's not under the influence of Jenova or Sephiroth because of his strong will.

Noosphere is an older scifi term for a telepathic... field. Basically that Hive Mind that Jenova has. The problem with saying Hive "mind" is it's not very clear to me how much of a "mind" Jenova has until Sephiroth comes along.

I don't see why Zack isn't susceptible. Yes, we know that some SOLDIER's resist Sephiroth's Reunion call (we fight them), but we know they can become susceptible (the shopkeep in Junon) if something in their psyche breaks, slips, or whatever else happened to that guy to make him feel the pull. Zack has a strong will, but wills can be broken. It doesn't seem that Zack would be totally "immune" though.

That said, whoever feels Sephiroth's pull through the Jenova cells/telepathic noosphere thing, should be able to exert will back. It shouldn't logically be one way.
 
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