SPOILERS Predictions for Part 2? (*Open Spoilers for Part 1*)

[Makoeyes987]

I mean, you're calling Genesis' own cells a form of Jenova cells which technically isn't wrong... But I struggle with that because while Genesis' cells do carry the genetic markers of Jenova.. They're flawed. They're not like the free floating alien cells of Jenova, or the Sephiroth-Jenova cells that are perfected.

And Genesis says he's looking for "Jenova cells."

So it gets really weird to say "Genesis has Jenova cells" which is technically right, but becomes infinitely confusing because one wonders, "why the hell was he looking for them?"

"Maybe the Jenova cells Genesis looked for were the friends he made along the way."

I don't see why Zack isn't susceptible. Yes, we know that some SOLDIER's resist Sephiroth's Reunion call (we fight them), but we know they can become susceptible (the shopkeep in Junon) if something in their psyche breaks, slips, or whatever else happened to that guy to make him feel the pull. Zack has a strong will, but wills can be broken. It doesn't seem that Zack would be totally "immune" though.

There's literally nothing whatsoever to assume Zack is susceptible. He went through it twice. He's shown to never succumb to it, so again why would he be?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

While Genesis is "cured" from Jenova, it seems to only be the mental link. Do I at least understand that part correct? If so, Genesis in DoC could either be a hero or a villain. But if he shows up during the events of Remake, he'd not be susceptible like Cloud. If Zack is running around, he should be susceptible like Cloud, too.

So... there's really two parts to Jenova's influence on people; the physical link and the mental link. Having one does not mean the other one automatically works. Everyone who is up against Jenova's influence does get to chose if they go along with it or not. And Everyone fights against Jenova's mental influence and wins in the end. Except Sephrioth. Sephrioth full on embraces it. Everyone else... not so much...

Ironically, SOLDIER does a really good job screening out people who wouldn't have the mental fortitude to stand up to Jenova's mental influence. Not because of Jenova.... but because of mako. Putting people with weak wills in mako causes them to get mako poisoning (because mako is the souls/memories of the dea). People with strong wills can get through that just fine. Which is also the case for Jenova. Weakwilled people can't stand up to her influence (think the Sephrioth Clones). People who can get to pick what they do about Jenova's influece. Zack in particular has one of the thing strongest wills in FF7. So even if he did get Jenova tring to mess with him mentally, he'd probably no-sell her just fine.

Zack has a strong will, but wills can be broken. It doesn't seem that Zack would be totally "immune" though.

Goodness knows we see Angeal, Genesis, Cloud and Kadaj all manage to act against Jenova... and they have even more Jenova in them and have weaker wills than Zack does. So for Jenova to take over Zack by force... I'd have to believe she could have done that with a whole other bunch of characters... Which is not what happens at all.

It should be noted that "breaking someone's will" is what Sephrioth does to Cloud in the OG. And yet Cloud recovers from that and throws off Sephrioth's influence. And that's with him having still-active Jenova Cells/Genes in him. The OG simply doesn't work if the mental facet of Jenova doesn't outweigh the physical facet.

Kadaj shows this even better where he's literally part of Sephrioth's Will and spends all of ACC obsessing about if Jenova and Sephrioth will accept his existence. And then at the end he switches sides when Aerith validates his existence and dissipates into the Lifestream... which is the exact opposite outcome Sephrioth was trying to use Kadaj for.

So... people's will vs Jenova... has resulted in that person's will winning every single time. Even with Sephrioth. He isn't so much taken over by Jenova as he chooses to be like her. Given Zack will never do that... yeah, he'll be fine... in the end at least. He's seen three people go through this already... Cloud will be the fourth. And he knows siding with the monster part never ends well.

See, this is nonsensical to me to begin with because the genes are the blueprint for the cells that something are made of. So if they have the genetic material, that would create cells that are like Jenova's. Aka Jenova cells.

Not exactly. You see this kind of thing with IRL White Blood Cells. They *eat* up viruses and bacteria in part to get parts of the virus/bacteria in them to use as "reference" for what they should go after. And some of those parts are DNA.

Viruses kinda do the opposite of this where they inject parts of their own DNA (or RNA) into healthy cells... which modifies the healthy cells in some way (usually to make more viruses). Jenova Cells canonically do that. It just... doesn't turn "non-Jenova Cells" into virus producing factories. It gives them traits that Jenova Cells have.

Then you bring in stuff like epigenetics (how cells turn individual genes on/of due to outside stimulus) and Jenova working this way goes from "obviously fantasy" to "i can imagine how this kind of thing could actually work and the absolute mess it could make of human DNA and gene expression is terrifying to think about".

Jenova very obviously is a fantasy version of this kind of thing. But it's close enough to IRL biological concepts that the horror of Jenova comes not from the fantastical side of her but from how she would work IRL.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think we will see Fort Condor, and I think we will see Yuffie before Junon, too. It might make the most sense to wrap her into the marsh/mines/Condor area and have her join the party like that. She could even be someone rescued from Shinra soldiers, or be a Wutai agent sent to work *with* Avalanche, as it seems the other branch of Avalanche was possibly funded and armed by Wutai.

It occurs to me that maybe the Avalanche HQ guys in Part 1 only think they have an agreement with Wutai (the nation) because they've been approached by Godo's daughter?

Right, it doesn't say either way but I'm inclined to believe he didn't because that would be an extreme overcomplication and bizarre element of the CC plot, where Genesis is seeking Jenova cells which he already has. Something as weird and ironic as that should at least be explained by the narrative.

Doesn't it? The narrative spends a good bit of time on a song and dance about pure Jenova cells that haven't become structurally compromised through imperfect integration in other biological hosts.

The quotes don't necessarily read to me as "hasn't got Jenova cells" though

However, as the Jenova cells are not fixed in their bodies

Wording here is a bit odd. What exactly does fixed mean in this context? I could interpret that as "they don't stay in the body forever but degrade over time, causing degradation of the body itself"

I'll cross my fingers and check my old computer for a scan of this passage I hopefully still have, but I think you're both off (Mako more than you). I may be wrong, but I want to say @Shademp and I scrutinized this passage once and determined that it was essentially saying Jenova cells are present but not integrated into the hosts in a way that lends stability to their genetic composition.

If I'm not mistaken, it's this very genetic instability that provides G-Type SOLDIERs with the copy ability. Sephiroth has a stable genetic matrix, and therefore lacks this specific ability.

 

[Eerie]

While you put a lot of thought into your roadmap, I think its very ambitious and there are some points I'd raise.

I think we are looking at 4 games total, with part 2 ending in Nibelheim. I don't think we will be visiting Wutai in part 2 either, there are a lot of locations and they have to build them. Given the additional emphasis on Wutai we have had in part 1, and how its presented as an opposition to Midgar, I suspect its going to be a much larger location with more new content (i.e. some kind of Shinra vs Wutai confrontation). So I suspect Wutai will be in part 3 and form some new arc.

So:
Part 2 Kalm to Nibelhiem
Part 3 Nibelhiem to TOA or City of the Ancients including Wutai
Part 4 TOA/City of the Ancients till the end

I know that sounds like a slightly weird breakdown because it seems like a lot compressed into part 4. However, there is method to this. Once we have reached TOA most of the world and locations are covered, there really isn't a lot in terms of world to create. They're going to want some new locations. Also, after City of the Ancients there is a lot of revisiting locations, back and forthing and so on (especially in the huge materia quest). Most of your time at this point is spent exploring, side quests and navigating back and forth. FFVII really is front loaded and in that kind of structure they can repace the whole thing. Plus I have a feeling they will fork the plot, with the world mostly built they will have a lot of freedom to make story content.

I was trying to see how a Junon end for part 1, if we take 5 parts for Remake, would work, but the truth is that it doesn't work very well. Unless a drastic change, for example, there is no "fun place" to be. At best the Chocobo farm would give us a "sector 5" feeling I guess, something a little fun and peaceful, but nothing like Wall Market - and people have been really enthralled by Remake's Wall Market. Plus, Costa del Sol or the cargo would not really make a good introduction of the next game ^^' so there's that.

Given the number of assets to do, and my guess that indeed they will want to overhaul GREATLY Wutai, then having a 4 parts game with the second ending at Nibelheim would make a good point. The the next entry point would be done while travelling to Rocket Town. So I do think pretty much like you, part 3 would end with Aerith's death, and whatever comes next could easily be fitted into one game - there is a LOT to do but maybe add a new town or whatever and you're pretty much set to lay down all the quests we'll have to do there. There would be Icicle Inn, I think, to make and the Great Glacier plus Mideel - so in terms of pure assets, about next to nothing considering it'd be the last part of the game. They also can add a crazy chapter in Wutai Wall Market-style if they redo the entire zone and background.

Of course I do expect them to move things a bit, to redo them, expand on them. So Nibelheim can be Shinra's tower+last dungeon - chapter 16 to 18, easily. And like this they could not fully work on Vincent, don't have to make him playable this time around if they need more time, since he'd be there by the end of part 2. But they have room to expand more on Cosmo Canyon, Costa del Sol for example. After all the game will still need breathers.

 

[waw]

There's literally nothing whatsoever to assume Zack is susceptible. He went through it twice. He's shown to never succumb to it, so again why would he be?

If another SOLDIER is running around the FF7 world once Sephiroth is in full throttle Reunion mode, we better see that SOLDIER struggle with Sephiroth's/Jenova's mental pull. The can win, I'm fine with that, but they need to keep it consistent for the "hive mind" effect. Everyday people with Jenova Cells (SOLDIER and Sephiroth Clones) live somewhat normal lives up until the events of FF7 OG. What I'm saying is, at somepoint during the early course of FF7, Sephiroth starts dominating the Jenova Will or whatever we call it, and that's when we should start seeing folks struggle. If Zack is around, as an example, he, too, should feel it, even if he beats it.

And Everyone fights against Jenova's mental influence and wins in the end.

I suppose it's true we only see a few people actually battle against Jenova's/Sephiroth's will. If "everyone" wins though, it's a pointless villain. We see the Clones succumb, and at times Cloud does too. It's worth seeing other people, including the "strong willed" of SOLDIER deal with this.

So... people's will vs Jenova... has resulted in that person's will winning every single time. Even with Sephrioth. He isn't so much taken over by Jenova as he chooses to be like her. Given Zack will never do that... yeah, he'll be fine... in the end at least. He's seen three people go through this already... Cloud will be the fourth. And he knows siding with the monster part never ends well.

So to further on this: I don't know that Jenova has a "will" as much as "instinct." I think Sephiroth has a "will." While it's splitting hairs, I don't mean to get pedantic--rather, I think Jenova is easier to shrug off before the Nibelheim Incident when it gradually merges with Sephiroth's will. Headcanon understandings aside, given the nature of Remake, we see those that succumb (the numbered Clones) and Cloud who struggles, hopefully we'll see characters like Roche, or Zack if he is running around, struggling with this.

I don't think we've seen Zack post Nibelheim Incident dealing with Sephiroth's will. Guys, I'm not saying Zack must be under Sephiroth's control. I'm saying he should feel the same thing Cloud is, even if it's easier for him to beat. Otherwise, Cloud is somehow unique from Zack when they went through the same experiment.

Jenova Cells canonically do that. It just... doesn't turn "non-Jenova Cells" into virus producing factories. It gives them traits that Jenova Cells have.

It's worth trying to figure out if Sephiroth has more Jenova Cells as an adult or a baby. Do Jenova Cells replicate within his body? Are they at all separate from what his cells are or are they all equivalent of Jenova Cells now?

Would an old SOLDIER suffer more or less from Jenova Cells at the age 60 as opposed to 16 when they get injected?

I think we often talk as if Jenova Cells are fixed within the body, like Midichlorians, kinda?

It occurs to me that maybe the Avalanche HQ guys in Part 1 only think they have an agreement with Wutai (the nation) because they've been approached by Godo's daughter?

Oh I hope so! Yuffie tricking all of AVALANCHE would be great. I really hope she gets drawn into the larger mythos this way. (I also hope for the dropped story of Sera, Izayoi, and Himemiko to work back in buuuuut....)

If I'm not mistaken, it's this very genetic instability that provides G-Type SOLDIERs with the copy ability. Sephiroth has a stable genetic matrix, and therefore lacks this specific ability.

This just doesn't make sense to me - that Genesis can copy and a superior Jenova speciemn like Sephiroth cannot. But this also raises other questions:

So all of Genesis's Unit that becomes the Genesis Army were G-Type Soldiers with Gillian Cells/Jenova Genes in them? Is it a little odd that Genesis was given a whole unit entirely like himself?

The copy process involved some sort of specific technology, it couldn't be retrofitted for Sephiroth or others? It's just odd to me. The whole thing boggles my mind.

This "inferior in everyway failure" has a much greater power than you, Sephiroth. o.O

 

[Makoeyes987]

If another SOLDIER is running around the FF7 world once Sephiroth is in full throttle Reunion mode, we better see that SOLDIER struggle with Sephiroth's/Jenova's mental pull. The can win, I'm fine with that, but they need to keep it consistent for the "hive mind" effect. Everyday people with Jenova Cells (SOLDIER and Sephiroth Clones) live somewhat normal lives up until the events of FF7 OG. What I'm saying is, at somepoint during the early course of FF7, Sephiroth starts dominating the Jenova Will or whatever we call it, and that's when we should start seeing folks struggle. If Zack is around, as an example, he, too, should feel it, even if he beats it.

So what is Roche?

So all of Genesis's Unit that becomes the Genesis Army were G-Type Soldiers with Gillian Cells/Jenova Genes in them? Is it a little odd that Genesis was given a whole unit entirely like himself?

Heck no. They were SOLDIERs, but they became copies of G-Type SOLDIERs. Which in a sense makes them G-Type by copying. But no, they were SOLDIERs who became copies.

This just doesn't make sense to me - that Genesis can copy and a superior Jenova speciemn like Sephiroth cannot. But this also raises other questions:

Sephiroth does it better. He can literally make any person think they're seeing him in any Copy you encounter and even make them be avatars of his will, and even morph into Jenova. Do you not remember Marco in the Remake?

Sephiroth Copies don't degrade. They can turn into him whenever he wants to, and then be left as drooling empty-headed puppets when finished.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

If another SOLDIER is running around the FF7 world once Sephiroth is in full throttle Reunion mode, we better see that SOLDIER struggle with Sephiroth's/Jenova's mental pull.

That black-cloaked guy in Sector 5 in Part 1 of the remake was said to have been a former SOLDIER.

So all of Genesis's Unit that becomes the Genesis Army were G-Type Soldiers with Gillian Cells/Jenova Genes in them? Is it a little odd that Genesis was given a whole unit entirely like himself?

Maybe that is what happened, but I just understood the matter to be that they became G-Types once they received Genesis's cells. That being said, Hojo does seem to still have some other G-Types on hand since he mentions intending to breed Aerith with both S-Types and G-Types.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The thing is... SOLDIERs with Jenova Cells have been around for 20+ years... and Jenova herself has been around even longer than that. And... seemingly nothing has happened with Jenova until Crisis Core with Genesis. And that's what sets everything off.

It just doesn't seem like "having Jenova Cells" is enough for people to start having mental battles with Jenova over what controls them. We see plenty of other SOLDIERs in the OG that are just normal mobs working for Shinra. Something else seems to also be a factor

Sephrioth himself has more Jenova Cells than.... anyone... and even he doesn't have any Jenova-relationed mental issues until he's on the other side of a wall from Jenova. And then it bites hard all at once.

Cloud... heh... Cloud has an entire smorgasbord of issues no one else has that makes him susceptible to Sephiroth. He's got weak will which means he gets mako poisioning. Then his Jenova Cells start copying things left and right about people he wants to be like to give him a semi-working* personality so he can function on a basic level. Then Sephrioth comes and starts taking digs at him emotionally. Then Sephrioth takes *physical* control over his body... which Cloud can *still* throw off. Even with all that going on... Sephrioth *still* can't break Cloud mentally until he shows Cloud that what Cloud thinks Cloud did at Nibelehim is based on a lie. And that is what breaks Cloud.

Until Tifa and Cloud fall into the Lifestream and work out what actually happened. And then Cloud never hears from Sephrioth again until ACC. Where he gets geostigma. And even that doesn't really do a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. Getting rid of the geostigma punts Sephrioth back to square one in how he can influence Cloud.

So... my gut feeling is that... most SOLDIERs are going to have way less mental issues than Cloud has (especially the mako poisoning issue, which is the root cause for Jenova copying memories to make Cloud functional in the first place and the source of why Sephrioth can break Cloud). And they probably have a lot more solid reasoning for what they are doing than Cloud does. So the odds of them dealing with Jenova is... crazy low.

It's also worth pointing out that Jenova doens't *really* give people *new* desires. She inflates thoughts that are already there. Which... means it's possible to reason yourself out of it still (route Genesis and Angeal go in the end). People think of "what if" scenarios all the time and never go through with them. So... assuming someone has a strong will, they might not even realize that it's specifically *Jenova* that is putting thoughts in their heads... but it's just themselves thinking up stuff that they know better than to follow through with.

We see something like this happen in Nibelehim with Zack where he has a crisis of faith about what being a SOLDIER means to him. And... on the one hand... it's very understandable for him to have one given what he's going through... on the other hand... given what TKAA tells us about Jenova... it's exactly the kind of thing she would do. And she's probably doing more or less the same thing to Sephrioth at the same time and in the same vicinity...

 

[waw]

So what is Roche?

This is my point! Let me rephrase as my meaning has been lost.

In FF7 OG, we never speak to any other active SOLDIER members, do we? We just see them as random mobs to beat up and kill. We never see anyone else with Jenova Cells actually struggle other than the clones and the one dude in Junon. We should see this play out with a character like Roche and *if* Zack is around, him too as it will contrast Cloud well.

Heck no. They were SOLDIERs, but they became copies of G-Type SOLDIERs. Which in a sense makes them G-Type by copying. But no, they were SOLDIERs who became copies.

Perfect, thank you. So the Copy that ate Zack's hair already had Jenova cells. He was a SOLDIER and SOLDIERs have Jenova Cells (with the possible exception of Genesis and Angeal who have genes). Therefore, that fella didn't need to Zack's hair to get Jenova cells. The search is over before it begins.

This creates a real problem for the theory that Genesis and Angel don't have Jenova Cells.

Sephiroth does it better. He can literally make any person think they're seeing him in any Copy you encounter and even make them be avatars of his will, and even morph into Jenova. Do you not remember Marco in the Remake?

Sephiroth Copies don't degrade. They can turn into him whenever he wants to, and then be left as drooling empty-headed puppets when finished.

This makes sense but it also flies in the face of many posts here that've stated otherwise. That said, can Sephiroth's Clones in Remake seem to hold his form simultaneously and indefinitely, more like the Genesis copies? We don't see that.

That black-cloaked guy in Sector 5 in Part 1 of the remake was said to have been a former SOLDIER.

Right, again my point with Roche and Zack above. FF7R's enemies aren't just voiceless random encounters. They're characters with personalities, quirks, and emotions, at least to some extent. We really should see this with all creatures with Jenova Cells. Someone like Zack overcoming it much, much easier than Cloud would be wonderful if Zack is back in Part 2.

Sephrioth himself has more Jenova Cells than.... anyone... and even he doesn't have any Jenova-relationed mental issues until he's on the other side of a wall from Jenova. And then it bites hard all at once.

This is a really great point and I've raised it elsewhere. I'm not sure how alive/active/sentient/powerful Jenova is before Sephiroth merges with it. He's definitely something evolved in my opinion.

We see something like this happen in Nibelehim with Zack where he has a crisis of faith about what being a SOLDIER means to him. And... on the one hand... it's very understandable for him to have one given what he's going through... on the other hand... given what TKAA tells us about Jenova... it's exactly the kind of thing she would do. And she's probably doing more or less the same thing to Sephrioth at the same time and in the same vicinity.

I think you're getting very close to more of "Jenova's Will" before we get to Sephiroth-Jenova merger. Genesis, Angeal, Sephiroth, and Zack all deal with doubt and feeling sure about themselves. They feel some level of fear and misgivings. They also struggle with heightened agression. I think this all has to do with Jenova's instinct through the noosphere, but once Sephiroth is in charge, it's a will/mind and no longer just a "feeling."

 

[Makoeyes987]

In FF7 OG, we never speak to any other active SOLDIER members, do we? We just see them as random mobs to beat up and kill. We never see anyone else with Jenova Cells actually struggle other than the clones and the one dude in Junon. We should see this play out with a character like Roche and *if* Zack is around, him too as it will contrast Cloud well.

Why do we need to see it? The point is, is most SOLDIERs who make it, don't struggle with the pull of Reunion because they have the mental fortitude to withstand the surgery. Why would there be a lot of SOLDIERs going around being copies, when that defeats the entire point of recruitment?

We already see one SOLDIER in Sector 5 who apparently was on the lower-end of the recruit scale who ended up being a copy which shows some can, but it would make no sense for a SOLDIER 1C like Zack, especially Zack, to have trouble with his ego and being turned into a Copy. He's the archetype of the SOLDIER who is immune to it.

 

[Clement Rage]

There are other factors, like knowing the potential for being influenced is there in the first place. The first time Cloud is controlled, he's helpless, but then he's able to resist gutting Aeris. Sephiroth is able to influence him to join the Reunion by exploiting his existing desire for revenge.

There's a retired SOLDIER in Junon running a shop, who doesn't go to the reunion. But he does put on the black cape. So Jenova had some influence, but couldn't make him decamp to the crater.

Sephiroth had an existing hangup about his mother, knowing about Lucrecia could have changed the whole game.

So Jenny has three ways of control.

1. Meat puppets she can dominate completely.
2. Battling someone's will to gain temporary control.
3. Subtle manipulation to make someone do your bidding without realising it.

Each approach has advantages and disadvantages, and poor Cloud has to deal with all three.

 

[waw]

Mako, you've been adamant that Angeal and Genesis couldn't have Jenova Cells as that rationale means that Genesis wouldn't be chasing Zack and Cloud, but the fact that Genesis's unit was regular SOLDIER with Jenova Cells undercuts that notion and you ignore to push on the other topic

We already see one SOLDIER in Sector 5 who apparently was on the lower-end of the recruit scale who ended up being a copy which shows some can, but it would make no sense for a SOLDIER 1C like Zack, especially Zack, to have trouble with his ego and being turned into a Copy. He's the archetype of the SOLDIER who is immune to it.

So, to follow this up bluntly: No. No one is totally immune to it. We see 1st Class SOLDIERS get affected by Jenova in Crisis Core and feel its pull, everyone gets affected. Not everyone falls to it. That said, we never see Zack go against Sephiroth's mind in Jenova. So Zack never tries to overcome it, we've never seen someone with stronger will than Cloud resist Sephiroth's will. They resist Jenova's instinct. These are different. Jenova doesn't start a reunion!

1. Meat puppets she can dominate completely.
2. Battling someone's will to gain temporary control.
3. Subtle manipulation to make someone do your bidding without realising it.

I think this is spot on. One of the things that we see is that Jenova/Sephiroth's mind control isn't always very overt. Cloud chases Sephiroth out of revenge but it was also Sephiroth's will the entire time. Was Zack carrying Cloud around the world out of his desire to have a friend like Angeal, and that pushes him toward playing into Sephiroth's plot? We don't know yet.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Mako, you've been adamant that Angeal and Genesis couldn't have Jenova Cells as that rationale means that Genesis wouldn't be chasing Zack and Cloud, but the fact that Genesis's unit was regular SOLDIER with Jenova Cells undercuts that notion and you ignore to push on the other topic

Genesis and Angeal aren't regular SOLDIERs.... They're G-Types. Genesis is seeking Jenova cells because he's degrading.

So, to follow this up bluntly: No. No one is totally immune to it. We see 1st Class SOLDIERS get affected by Jenova in Crisis Core and feel its pull, everyone gets affected. Not everyone falls to it. That said, we never see Zack go against Sephiroth's mind in Jenova. So Zack never tries to overcome it, we've never seen someone with stronger will than Cloud resist Sephiroth's will. They resist Jenova's instinct. These are different. Jenova doesn't start a reunion!

That's false. Zack is immune. They literally say so in the Shinra Mansion research notes in the OG. Zack exhibited zero response to the Jenova cells. Cloud however did. Zack never exhibited copy behavior. Roche in the Remake never did either. Jenova's Reunion instinct doesn't require Sephiroth. Sephiroth just makes use of it to make the copies do things other than wander around and look for Jenova.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

This makes sense but it also flies in the face of many posts here that've stated otherwise. That said, can Sephiroth's Clones in Remake seem to hold his form simultaneously and indefinitely, more like the Genesis copies? We don't see that.

What makes this tricky is that Sephrioth can *make anyone* see what he wants them to if he's close enough. That's the power of Mimic. He uses it in the OG at the Northern Crater where he makes all of AVALANACHE see a fake Tifa and not see the real one. Weather or not people have Jenova in them doesn't matter when it comes to Mimic. And that's certainly something we see happen in the Remake already.... Interestingly, we never see Genesis or Angeal do something like this. It would fit that Sephrioth's Clone could also use Mimic to make poeple think they look like someone else, even if they actually don't.

So, to follow this up bluntly: No. No one is totally immune to it. We see 1st Class SOLDIERS get affected by Jenova in Crisis Core and feel its pull, everyone gets affected. Not everyone falls to it. That said, we never see Zack go against Sephiroth's mind in Jenova. So Zack never tries to overcome it, we've never seen someone with stronger will than Cloud resist Sephiroth's will. They resist Jenova's instinct. These are different. Jenova doesn't start a reunion!

There's not a ton of difference between Jenova and Sephrioth by the time of the OG through. They're like a snake eating it's tail.... With Sephrioth being the Head and Jenova the tail. Sephrioth's identity is wrapped up in being Jenova's Son and all his abilities can be traced back to things she could do first. There's no differce between "Sephrioth's Will" and "Jenova's Instinct" by the time of the OG; they're one and the same.

The Clones we know of (especially in the OG) are people who are not SOLDIER material. They're normal civilians from Nibelheim (or the Slums). Not SOLDIERs. Interestingly, Zack is a Sephrioth Copy in every way that counts physically. He got exposed to the same stuff all the Sephrioth Copies did. It's just that it flat out didn't work on him. And Zack is a SOLDIER... he would have more Jenova Cells in him than all the other Sephrioth Copies. If it was just a matter of "how much Jenova Cells someone has", Zack would be like... the most mentally effected Clone. Instead he breaks out of the Nibelehim Lab, doesn't even *think* about Sephrioth (Angeal and Genesis on the other hand... heh...) and leaves with Cloud. And instead of going to where Sephrioth is (Northern Crater) he makes a beeline for his girlfriend in Midgar.

Zack is also an interesting case because he does have Jenova abilities of his own (and no one else's). He's got the Jenova abilities associated with copying other people's skills and they're linked to how he remembers those people. Which is... some weird combination of Sephrioth (mental powers) with Angeal/Genesis (copying abilities from other things). Zack just has no ties to either of those strains of the Jenova Project to influence what kind of "Jenova Power Set" he could have gotten. It's almost like Zack has enough willpower to make use of the Jenova Cells in himself... rather than those Cells being able to effect him in ways he doesn't want them too...

Was Zack carrying Cloud around the world out of his desire to have a friend like Angeal, and that pushes him toward playing into Sephiroth's plot? We don't know yet.

Good thing Crisis Core tells us exactly why Zack is doing this. He remembers Aerith, his girlfriend, who he knows will help them out... and wants to go to Midgar to find her. He's also being chased by both Shinra Security Forces, and the Turks and the remains of the Genesis Army. So he has to keep moving somewhere. It's not like he's on a revenge quest against Sephrioth. Zack thinks Sephiroth dead and Zack himself has a friend with bad mako poisioning and way too many people after him. He's got plenty of good mundane reasons to do what he's doing.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I think we can meet Yuffie in part 2 but I don’t think we’ll go to Wutai until after the Lifestream, or if we do, they’ll probably save the Yuffie/Elena rescue for after the Lifestream. Pretty sure that’s the only time we see Cloud and the Turks “cooperating” and I think that coincides well with the fall of Shinra. Seems like a good place to leave things off on “friendly” terms.

only think they have an agreement with Wutai (the nation) because they've been approached by Godo's daughter?

Would certainly make sense considering Biggs mentions Avalanche HQ promising Wutai materia, perhaps Yuffie and/or a rogue faction of Wutai is in on it, I just don’t see it going as far as all-out war.

On my first playthrough, I think I did Fort Condor while Cloud was in Mideel? There’s so much else to cover from disc 1 that I’d probably save that for when they adapt disc 2.

I’m still not too keen on ending in Nibelheim because I feel like that’s where the plot really starts to pick up, there’ll be a fair bit of fluff needed to pad out the game in that case.

Overall, my guess is we’re still a long ways from part 2 BUT if they do it in three parts with the second ending with Aerith’s death, then I think chances are we’ll have to wait a while for part 2 but not as long for part 3 since they actually would have a huge bulk of resources done by then.

 

[waw]

There's no differce between "Sephrioth's Will" and "Jenova's Instinct" by the time of the OG; they're one and the same.

The Clones we know of (especially in the OG) are people who are not SOLDIER material.

The thing is we don't know that Sephiroth is mentally active prior to the start of OG FFVII. We have no proof that Sephiroth is instantly pushing his mind prior to Cloud hearing him. All of that means that in Crisis Core we have pre-Sephiroth-merged SOLDIER folks and in FFVII we see Sephiroth's affect. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? I'm not sure how else to put it:

Jenova Instinct... -> sometime after Nibelheim Incident, certainly by FF7...> becomes Sephiroth's Will.

We see Zack and co. dealing with Jenova Instinct. Sephiroth embraces it. What happens when Zack is against Sephiroth?

Good thing Crisis Core tells us exactly why Zack is doing this. He's got plenty of good mundane reasons to do what he's doing.

So... Cloud doesn't have good reason during the events of FFVII to chases down Sephiroth?

Genesis and Angeal aren't regular SOLDIERs.... They're G-Types. Genesis is seeking Jenova cells because he's degrading.

We're really talking past each other here. I agree on G and A. No problem. But Genesis has an Army that includes SOLDIER members that defected with him and co through the Copy process. So they have Jenova Cells, so the degredation should be solved. Am I missing something? You said Genesis can't possibly have Jenova Cells because he's searching for them, hencing needing Zack and Cloud. Buuuuut, he has SOLDIER members that were converted. No?

 

[Tetsujin]

I mean, you're calling Genesis' own cells a form of Jenova cells which technically isn't wrong... But I struggle with that because while Genesis' cells do carry the genetic markers of Jenova.. They're flawed. They're not like the free floating alien cells of Jenova, or the Sephiroth-Jenova cells that are perfected.

And Genesis says he's looking for "Jenova cells."

So it gets really weird to say "Genesis has Jenova cells" which is technically right, but becomes infinitely confusing because one wonders, "why the hell was he looking for them?"

"Maybe the Jenova cells Genesis looked for were the friends he made along the way."

It's not confusing though. The story makes it clear he isn't simply looking for Jenova cells. He is looking for a very specific type of cells. It's pure S-type cells from Sephiroth. Even though Zack is an S-type, his didn't have the desired effect either because idk not pure enough or something so Genesis turns to Cloud as the last option.
If Genesis simply needed any Jenova cells, he could've turned to the SOLDIERs that he transformed into his clone army. His clone army were regular SOLDIERs with Jenova cells but despite having them, the G-type shit he pissed into their DNA still made them degrade.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Mako, you've been adamant that Angeal and Genesis couldn't have Jenova Cells as that rationale means that Genesis wouldn't be chasing Zack and Cloud, but the fact that Genesis's unit was regular SOLDIER with Jenova Cells undercuts that notion and you ignore to push on the other topic :p

Genesis and Angeal aren't regular SOLDIERs.... They're G-Types. Genesis is seeking Jenova cells because he's degrading.

The point @waw is making there is that one can't cite the degradation as evidence of a lack of Jenova cells in Genesis because the SOLDIERs in the Genesis Army all have Jenova cells yet are still degrading.

[EDIT: ninja'd]

 

[Clement Rage]

Wouldn't it be much easier for Gen to just kidnap a random SOLDIER, then? Or is he hoping Zack kept a lock of Sephy's hair in a locket?

 

[Makoeyes987]

The point @waw is making there is that one can't cite the degradation as evidence of a lack of Jenova cells in Genesis because the SOLDIERs in the Genesis Army all have Jenova cells yet are still degrading.

[EDIT: ninja'd]

I see. Well as @Tetsujin stated, it's because Genesis ended up imprinting his own genetic flaws and cellular imbalance onto those SOLDIERs via the enhancement and copying.

Hojo said it best in Chapter 5 after Zack gets a further "enhancement" from Hojo thanks to being tricked into one of his research pods and comments on not feeling that different.

"That's just the limit of your cellular structure. Or perhaps you'd like to be altered to the point of degradation? Like some second-rate scientist I know has done?"

That's what happened with G-Type SOLDIERs. The integration of Jenova's genetic material combined with everything else done to them, causes their cells to not be able to handle that alteration and added enhancement. Those cells can't handle it.

It's not confusing though. The story makes it clear he isn't simply looking for Jenova cells. He is looking for a very specific type of cells. It's pure S-type cells from Sephiroth. Even though Zack is an S-type, his didn't have the desired effect either because idk not pure enough or something so Genesis turns to Cloud as the last option.
If Genesis simply needed any Jenova cells, he could've turned to the SOLDIERs that he transformed into his clone army. His clone army were regular SOLDIERs with Jenova cells but despite having them, the G-type shit he pissed into their DNA still made them degrade.

I meant confusing to me

But I get your point. Genesis' own cells which are in essence, Jenova type cells, are flawed and imperfect. They're not pure like Sephiroth's (since he in essence is Jenova) and he doesn't have the free-floating alien tissue cells in his body either.

Am I missing something? You said Genesis can't possibly have Jenova Cells because he's searching for them, hencing needing Zack and Cloud. Buuuuut, he has SOLDIER members that were converted. No?

Genesis doesn't have pure Jenova cells in his body. Like, actual alien cells. And Genesis passed on his own messed up cellular structure onto the SOLDIERs. Which made them degrade. Any SOLDIER with Jenova cells would not have pure ones because they've integrated with their body. He needed the alien cellular tissue of Jenova, or Sephiroth's own S-cells.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Zack was in SOLDIER long before he was made into a Sephrioth Copy. So he's got his own custom mix of his *personal* cells and Jenova Cells... and then more Sephiroth+Jenova stuff got added to that. Which.. didn't effect what Zack already had. Fortunately, that's all biologically stable and not doing anything weird. However, Genesis already has that (someone else's Jenova messed with cells)... and it hasn't done anything for him. What he still doesn't have is something from Sephrioth that hasn't been mixed with any other Jenova-exposed Cells. Cloud jsut so happens to have this...

So... Cloud doesn't have good reason during the events of FFVII to chases down Sephiroth?

Cloud's reason to chase Sephrioth is so he can kill Sephrioth. Which means... Sephrioth can lead Cloud wherever Sephrioth wants Cloud to go and Cloud will go there. Like when he goes to that once place with the Black Materia... or once he has the Black Materia, he goes to the Northern Crater. And Cloud will never stop to think about *why* Sephiroth is going there. All Cloud wants to do is kill Sephrioth.

Zack's reason to go to Midgar has nothing to do with Sephrioth or Jenova. In fact, it has nothing to do with something they care about either (and neither Jenova or Sephrioth care about Zack either). Even with having Aerith as a reason to go to Midgar, Zack has no issue taking a long detour to go deal with Genesis. Even with that though, he's always thinking beyond what is happening at the moment.. which is that he wants to see his girlfriend again. Where that happens is... negotiable.

 

[Makoeyes987]

By the way, I want to raise something else to further clarify how Genesis doesn't have... Jenova cells in the sense of actual pure alien cellular matter or Sephiroth's own cells.

Q7-2: In DC it is said that “the appearance of G changed the course of Deepground (DG)” and “SOLDIERs branded with epithets of colour are the hell spawn of G”. Does this mean that Weiss and the other Tsviets with colour epithets who were created in DG were created using the results of Project G for reference?

A7-2: Yes. Only the DG SOLDIERs who have been injected with Genesis’ genes could become a Tsviet with a colour epithet.

This is important when you consider this in relation to Hojo's cockamamie scheme to turn himself into a jinchuriki host for Omega.

Weiss the Immaculate was capable of hosting Omega and it's awesome power because he was pure. His spirit energy and body were free of the taint of Geostigma. Jenova. Darkness. That's why he was chosen. Weiss is a Tsviet, and if he had actual Jenova cells in his body he would be incapable of being a sufficient subject for Hojo's final experiment. So clearly... Genesis' genetic make up is not on the same level or equivalent to the likes of Sephiroth or a normal member of SOLDIER. Because if it were, Weiss by definition would have been incapable of being Omega.

 

[Roundhouse]

I love how everything always comes back to Genesis. His name is fitting.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The one problem with that, Mako, is that we know the material that goes into the Tsivets was taken from Gensis when he was just born... rather than later on in his life. Namely... when Project G was ongoing and more than likely from before it had been declared a failure.

And we know that happened a very long time ago as it's not until Deepground gets G Cells in the first place that it really turns into... Deepground as we know it (the science lab instead of the hospital). Which was before Weiss, Scarlet and Nero were even born. Let alone when the Restrictors were a thing.

So... yeah... I think Genesis didn't have Jenova Cells when he was a fetus or a kid or when he was growing up... which is when all the integration with Jenova Cells is needed to get the really strong Jenova traits. I just... don't think he stayed that way once go got into SOLDIER... since I think Deepground *already* had his cells to begin with.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I say we use the Whispers to go back in time and kill baby Genesis