SPOILERS Predictions for Part 2? (*Open Spoilers for Part 1*)

[OWA-2]

Well... That's what I think/wish is going to happen. ?

Instead of multiple timelines, just a single one that was changed, after the dead of the Whispers. In this one, Zack is alive, but Cloud(and the others?) is(are) dead. But now they are alive 'again', since they weren't affected by the changes, while inside the Singularity. They are basically what remains from the original timeline.

That way, you avoid the convoluted idea of a multiverse, and also avoid the characters meeting their doubles.

I really don't want FF7 to deal with the multiverse.

 

[Makoeyes987]

...You complain about "convolution" but somehow there's a Zack walking around alive in the same world where he's clearly supposed to be dead, carrying a Buster Sword while Cloud carries a Buster Sword, and the main characters are dead but not really, and somehow they just magically don't notice or recognize the entire universe has been reset to have a completely rewritten history?

Like, your problem is "alternate timelines" but then you layer paradox upon paradox. That's convoluted 100%, because you're shoehorning paradoxes that clearly are at odds with what's shown. "Fry being his own Grandpa" tier paradoxes. Just completely contradictory with themselves.

That clearly isn't the case with what we see, because we know the temporal perspective of Cloud specifically references Zack being killed on the outskirts of Midgar. That's a fact which is once more referenced in the Material Ultimania timeline of Midgar and bore out with him being Cloud post singularity. Cause-and-effect still exist, ergo Zack being alive is not connected directly to that universe. Exhibited by the fact Stamp is different in Zack's location versus where Cloud and the others are.

Like, the fact Stamp is clearly different and referenced directly as a major clue to explaining Zack's survival, along with the fact there are clearly two Buster Swords, is such a straightforward clue I'm still astounded it's questioned.

It's just like Kingdom Hearts II/III's setting clues, such as there being two one-of-a-kind munny pouches that were owned by Roxas and Ollete, or the fact there were 7 unexplained "wonders" within the Twilight Town simulation that didn't match the true world. Stamp being "different" is a massive red flag for the audience to call attention to the fact that wherever Zack is, it's "different" from where Cloud and the others are.

 

[OWA-2]

...You complain about "convolution" but somehow there's a Zack walking around alive in the same world where he's clearly supposed to be dead, carrying a Buster Sword while Cloud carries a Buster Sword, and the main characters are dead but not really, and somehow they just magically don't notice or recognize the entire universe has been reset to have a completely rewritten history?

Like, your problem is "alternate timelines" but then you layer paradox upon paradox. That's convoluted 100%, because you're shoehorning paradoxes that clearly are at odds with what's shown. "Fry being his own Grandpa" tier paradoxes. Just completely contradictory with themselves.

That clearly isn't the case with what we see, because we know the temporal perspective of Cloud specifically references Zack being killed on the outskirts of Midgar. That's a fact which is once more referenced in the Material Ultimania timeline of Midgar and bore out with him being Cloud post singularity. Cause-and-effect still exist, ergo Zack being alive is not connected directly to that universe. Exhibited by the fact Stamp is different in Zack's location versus where Cloud and the others are.

Like, the fact Stamp is clearly different and referenced directly as a major clue to explaining Zack's survival, along with the fact there are clearly two Buster Swords, is such a straightforward clue I'm still astounded it's questioned.

It's just like Kingdom Hearts II/III's setting clues, such as there being two one-of-a-kind munny pouches that were owned by Roxas and Ollete, or the fact there were 7 unexplained "wonders" within the Twilight Town simulation that didn't match the true world. Stamp being "different" is a massive red flag for the audience to call attention to the fact that wherever Zack is, it's "different" from where Cloud and the others are.

Who said the characters won't sooner or later recognize that the universe has been reset into a new one?

And the paradox could be explained by the Singularity, like I said before. The characters were prottected from the changes in the timeline, so now they are paradoxes.

Stamp could be a clue that things changed.

You say that what I'm suggesting is convoluted, and yes it is. But anything will be, after Square decided to add the concepts of time-and-space and defying-destiny to the main story of FF7, as if this game was a FF8 remake. Adding the friggin multiverse to it would make things even worse IMO.

I just don't want FF7 to become even more of a comic book than it already is. I mean, we have frigging time 'travel' now, isn't that complex enough? Do we really need to add the friggin multiverse to it?? And what's next? Cosmos and Chaos will show up? Remake Cloud will meet Kingdom Hearts Cloud? Sephiroth and Gannondorf will do a fusion dance?

 

[Makoeyes987]

The Singularity did give us an explanation.

Zack exists in a world separate from the main one thanks to the Whispers being seemingly destroyed. We have a completely different Stamp the Shinra Dog that does not appear anywhere else in the main game, as a massive visual cue, explained as a separate iteration from the one in the main game. We have Cloud and Zack carrying two separate Buster Swords. And the acknowledgement that they do not exist or cross paths in the same time or place during the ending.

These are glaringly obvious clues to the setting and it's separation from each other. The fact nothing's changed with Intermission, Cloud (our main character who would stand to change the most from this) is still the same, and the narrative is still moving forward with FFVII's core story, alongside Zack being confronted with a new mystery unique to his perspective post-ending, makes it pretty obvious we're operating on two parallel axes of time.

The fact is, time-space manipulation has already happened. It happened when Cloud was flung forward in time to meet with Sephiroth in the far off future at the "Edge of Creation," with the Planet near the end of its life. And it happened with Zack's ultimate fate being changed, while Cloud remained the same. There being separate timelines is a pretty arbitrary "bridge too far" when the bridge has been built and crossed the moment we saw Zack live, Cloud stay the same, while all along there's a totally different mascot from the one established in the setting history. It's ironic that trying to avoid the simple horse out of the barn, leads to a situation where the horse trashes the farm with paradox hoof prints. Paradoxes that clash and contort FFVII entirely, no what-ifs are even necessary to imagine. That seems far more messy and narratively destructive than simply giving space for the fantasy setting and accepting it at face value.

 

[Ryushikaze]

My biggest question is how Zack and his world are going to interact with the R timeline. It SEEMS that the boundaries between his timeline (Z) and R timeline are especially weak during the climax of the game, but whether or not that's still true afterwards is what I'm curious about.

 

[Eerie]

I've said it elsewhere, but the reason why I've fallen back on "nah, Zack has to be dead after all" is exactly this reason... Many questions arise: was this alternate universe always there, or was it created just then? How will Zack interact back with the team? And let's not forget that he can't interact with them before the Lifestream scene, which pushes back a lot of the interactions they could have. Another theory would be that, this time, Zack and Aerith survive, but willingly die to protect the Planet, so that's why Zack survives. But it doesn't eliminate the "how the two worlds will interact".

To me, Zack surviving in an alternate universe causes a lot of problems like this, but most importantly, is very time-consuming for the devs, compared to the already very full original timeline. So I am not sure that they *really* are going there.

 

[LNK]

My biggest question is how Zack and his world are going to interact with the R timeline. It SEEMS that the boundaries between his timeline (Z) and R timeline are especially weak during the climax of the game, but whether or not that's still true afterwards is what I'm curious about.

If they follow what was done with MWTtP (which is what I think is going on), I see no reason why it can't work

 

[Ryushikaze]

I've said it elsewhere, but the reason why I've fallen back on "nah, Zack has to be dead after all" is exactly this reason... Many questions arise: was this alternate universe always there, or was it created just then? How will Zack interact back with the team? And let's not forget that he can't interact with them before the Lifestream scene, which pushes back a lot of the interactions they could have. Another theory would be that, this time, Zack and Aerith survive, but willingly die to protect the Planet, so that's why Zack survives. But it doesn't eliminate the "how the two worlds will interact".

To me, Zack surviving in an alternate universe causes a lot of problems like this, but most importantly, is very time-consuming for the devs, compared to the already very full original timeline. So I am not sure that they *really* are going there.

Universe R Zack is capital D dead. Not pretending he's not. What I am curious about is whether we might get occasional bleed through from Universe Z that the Universe R people- or even just Aerith- are aware of. Or maybe even Universe Z being vaguely aware of Universe R. And given that Sephiroth seems to be fucking with time and space, that having knock-on consequences to other timelines a la the universal ripples of the M'Kraan crystal in X-men's age of apocalypse is something I could absolutely see happening.

If they follow what was done with MWTtP (which is what I think is going on), I see no reason why it can't work

I'm not sure what you mean by this. "What was done" with Maiden was Aerith talking to people after they were dead and learning more about their worldviews. Universe Z Zack isn't in a place to be doing that, unless you mean he's going to interact with people we can't in Universe R for whatever reason.

 

[LNK]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. "What was done" with Maiden was Aerith talking to people after they were dead and learning more about their worldviews

From what I understand, the characters in MWTtP, were in the lifestream. This is where I think Zack is. (He just thinks he's alive). Eventually, he'll interact with other characters who will be there as well (Jessie, wedge, all the way up to Aerith). In the final part of Remake, we will have our team defeating Sephiroth, with help from Aerith, Zack, Jessie, maybe even Angeal in the Lifestream. Just like in MWTtP

 

[Ryushikaze]

From what I understand, the characters in MWTtP, were in the lifestream. This is where I think Zack is. (He just thinks he's alive). Eventually, he'll interact with other characters who will be there as well (Jessie, wedge, all the way up to Aerith). In the final part of Remake, we will have our team defeating Sephiroth, with help from Aerith, Zack, Jessie, maybe even Angeal in the Lifestream. Just like in MWTtP

Why are you under the impression that the Zack we see in the climax of the game and credits of the Interlude is dead? Contrary to OG and R timeline Zacks he does not fall dead at the end of his fight, and instead he gets up and carries Cloud to Midgar, walking right past the R party and especially Aerith as they leave Midgar. Showing us that he lived and helped drag Cloud to Midgar while also giving us the note that he's not OUR Zack doesn't mesh with the idea that this dude's dead and he doesn't know it.

 

[LNK]

Why are you under the impression that the Zack we see in the climax of the game and credits of the Interlude is dead? Contrary to OG and R timeline Zacks he does not fall dead at the end of his fight, and instead he gets up and carries Cloud to Midgar, walking right past the R party and especially Aerith as they leave Midgar. Showing us that he lived and helped drag Cloud to Midgar while also giving us the note that he's not OUR Zack doesn't mesh with the idea that this dude's dead and he doesn't know it.

I just have a feeling that things are not exactly what is being told.
I think Zack thinks he's alive, which is why the developers talk about him surviving his last stand.
I think the AU that lots of people are talking about, is going to be revealed as the lifestream.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I just have a feeling that things are not exactly what is being told.
I think Zack thinks he's alive, which is why the developers talk about him surviving his last stand.
I think the AU that lots of people are talking about, is going to be revealed as the lifestream.

But why go to the effort of the different Stamp for that one tiny sequence? Why does "The Lifestream" have an alternate version Stamp? Why is Cloud also in the lifestream with Zack?

 

[LNK]

But why go to the effort of the different Stamp for that one tiny sequence? Why does "The Lifestream" have an alternate version Stamp? Why is Cloud also in the lifestream with Zack?

Idk. Those questions will be answered in part 2 or 3

 

[Ryushikaze]

Idk. Those questions will be answered in part 2 or 3

Then no offense but your 'Zack's just in the lifestream' hypothesis is a pretty bad one, all things considered. It fails to adequately satisfy the law of conservation of detail for the details of the scene, especially one of the most eye catching ones introduced in that moment.

 

[ultima786]

But why go to the effort of the different Stamp for that one tiny sequence? Why does "The Lifestream" have an alternate version Stamp? Why is Cloud also in the lifestream with Zack?

Perhaps in the Lifestream, memories are getting altered by Jenova’s presence? Stamp is perhaps a symbol for faulty memory? “Those who look with clouded eyes see nothing but shadows.”

 

[Phantasia]

Then no offense but your 'Zack's just in the lifestream' hypothesis is a pretty bad one, all things considered. It fails to adequately satisfy the law of conservation of detail for the details of the scene, especially one of the most eye catching ones introduced in that moment.

There is no need to call their take "a pretty bad one" just because you don't agree with it. Nothing is 100% certain until we get the rest of the story.

 

[LNK]

Then no offense but your 'Zack's just in the lifestream' hypothesis is a pretty bad one, all things considered. It fails to adequately satisfy the law of conservation of detail for the details of the scene, especially one of the most eye catching ones introduced in that moment.

No offense taken. It may fail in your eyes, but not in mine. @ultima786 just gave you a reason for Stamp being different.

Honestly, I don't really care about getting too far into the details of why there is a "lifestream timeline," with Zack. A few things have been shown, that makes me think this. I'm not really interested in convincing others to think the same. Especially since none of us knows exactly what's gone on with Zack

 

[Eerie]

Then no offense but your 'Zack's just in the lifestream' hypothesis is a pretty bad one, all things considered. It fails to adequately satisfy the law of conservation of detail for the details of the scene, especially one of the most eye catching ones introduced in that moment.

It's really easy to explain though:

1. Zack was shot after being seen last in the wasteland by Aerith, and this is why Cloud is not with him in front of the church
2. Zack's soul has been "saved" by Aerith, who when she meddled with the portal, created her own AU. As we could see, the Whispers were creating a replica of Midgar, so it's very possible that her creating the portall meddled with that and ended up with an unintentional side effect, especially since it's clear the devs wanted to link Aerith and Zack there (the price of freedom, etc.).
3. As a result, all those who died during the plate fall but didn't yet melt with the Lifestream were protected (we know a lot already joined the Lifestream through Aerith's resolution scene). It also created its own Stamp version, as well as its own church version which is in a better state than the one we see in the game.

Now I will say that just like @eleamaya I thought "Zack is back from the dead!" when he pushed that door in Intergrade, BUT I cannot set aside the fact that maybe this is what is truly going on, especially since it will be easier to make this work with FFVII's lore.

 

[LNK]

I cannot set aside the fact that maybe this is what is truly going on, especially since it will be easier to make this work with FFVII's lore.

This is part of why I think the alternate timeline, is just the Lifestream. It's much easier to explain, and you don't need to expand the games too much more

 

[Makoeyes987]

Zack being "alive" in the Lifestream would be a contradictory falsehood and flies totally in the face of the message and depiction meant to shock the audience in witnessing Zack survive the last stand meant to kill him.




"Zack routes the Shinra Soldiers and lives to see another day... The scene where Zack is cornered by Shinra forces follows the same structure as the one in Crisis Core; however, it's conclusion is radically different."

This makes it explicit Zack is alive in direct contrast to Crisis Core, where he died on those outskirts. I don't know how they can more plainly say it than this. We witnessed Zack having survived the last stand on the outskirts of Midgar in FFVII-R's ending. However, he's also referenced as having been killed in Cloud and Midgar's history. That and the clear paradoxical discrepancies means there's an alternate Zack in existence. No other reason exists to introduce the Chekov's Gun of there being an unseen Stamp in Zack's scene or call attention to the fact that there are two Buster Swords which means Cloud having one would totally not be the case, if Zack had lived.

 

[ultima786]

Zack being "alive" in the Lifestream would be a contradictory falsehood and flies totally in the face of the message and depiction meant to shock the audience in witnessing Zack survive the last stand meant to kill him.


View attachment 11981

"Zack routes the Shinra Soldiers and lives to see another day... The scene where Zack is cornered by Shinra forces follows the same structure as the one in Crisis Core; however, it's conclusion is radically different."

This makes it explicit Zack is alive in direct contrast to Crisis Core, where he died on those outskirts. I don't know how they can more plainly say it than this. We witnessed Zack having survived the last stand on the outskirts of Midgar in FFVII-R's ending. However, he's also referenced as having been killed in Cloud and Midgar's history. That and the clear paradoxical discrepancies means there's an alternate Zack in existence. No other reason exists to introduce the Chekov's Gun of there being an unseen Stamp in Zack's scene or call attention to the fact that there are two Buster Swords which means Cloud having one would totally not be the case, if Zack had lived.

I think this is probably right. The Whispers were trying to do something, but they failed. But if Zack's just inthe Lifestream, that would sorta imply that they didn't fail, which contradicts what happened in Ch. 18 of the Remake.

That being said, I really like the idea that Zack is in the Lifestream, learning about his spiritual existence, and being a source of aid to Cloud and Aerith. But i don't think it's gonna happen that way given the evidence.

 

[Eerie]

@Makoeyes987 I understand totally your point, as I said I'm torn between "it's a total AU where Zack is alive!" and the "Zack is dead" theory. For the latter, I will add that Nomura saying that Aerith's line at the end of the game (that she hates the sky) is because it took away her mother and Zack, implying that Zack is dead; and ToTP where we see Elmyra's husband coming back which was very reminiscent to me about how Zack opened that church's door. But I'm not going to fight about it, because really, I don't know anything about it.

However, if Zack survived, then, why is Zack dead? Is Aerith shown a Zack from another dimension right from the start? This theory also does ask quite some questions, because if Zack does not die, then Cloud does not become Cloud - and we know the Cloud who is here has seen Zack dying, as it is the start of his journey.

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

Life, death, deception...

 

[Roundhouse]

 

[ForceStealer]

Go non-handlebar guy!