Roundhouse
Pro Adventurer
In all honesty, if I had to bet, I would say that Zack is in an alternate timeline. That is what I'm getting from the hints the game has given us. Whether this is actually the case or not is another question of course...
SPOILERS Predictions for Part 2? (*Open Spoilers for Part 1*)
- Thread starter Roundhouse
- Start date
LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
I wouldn't mind if Zack is in a totally different timeline, if that's what is going on. There's just many more things that would need to be addressed, compared to what my theory is.
Where is the 2nd Cloud? Are there duplicates of other characters? What is going to happen to the main Cloud when he realizes there's an AU Zack? His mental state will be shattered even worse when it comes to the Lifestream scene. How will that be handled now?
No matter what happens, I know SE will make it work. I have faith in that.
Roundhouse
Pro Adventurer
What do we all think of the theory on Twitter that Zack and Stamp have some kind of special connection or symbolic significance? The stuff people have put together include:
- Zack is often referred to as a 'puppy' in Crisis Core.
- The game shows a poster of Stamp carrying a wounded puppy on his back...later in the game we see Zack carrying the sickened Cloud.
- There is an Aerith monologue in the 30th anniversary where she specifically talks about Stamp...before the remake was even released, and some claim that she seems to be talking about Stamp as Zack.
- Cloud has a sudden Jenova headache when Barret starts talking about 'loyal little doggy' and 'Stamp' in the Mako reactor.
- Something I will add...Zack's last stand in remake has a moment where the Stamp bag floats past with the changed picture, which is famous for possibly signifying an alternate timeline...but maybe it also has to do with Zack specifically on a symbolic level, which is why it happens in one of his only scenes.
- Nomura says Stamp is a 'very important' character, and that he personally designed him, even though normally he wouldn't do that kind of thing.
- The Stamp song seems to match Zack's character.
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- Zack is often referred to as a 'puppy' in Crisis Core.
- The game shows a poster of Stamp carrying a wounded puppy on his back...later in the game we see Zack carrying the sickened Cloud.
- There is an Aerith monologue in the 30th anniversary where she specifically talks about Stamp...before the remake was even released, and some claim that she seems to be talking about Stamp as Zack.
- Cloud has a sudden Jenova headache when Barret starts talking about 'loyal little doggy' and 'Stamp' in the Mako reactor.
- Something I will add...Zack's last stand in remake has a moment where the Stamp bag floats past with the changed picture, which is famous for possibly signifying an alternate timeline...but maybe it also has to do with Zack specifically on a symbolic level, which is why it happens in one of his only scenes.
- Nomura says Stamp is a 'very important' character, and that he personally designed him, even though normally he wouldn't do that kind of thing.
- The Stamp song seems to match Zack's character.
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Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
From a Doylist perspective, yes. There are several parallels to Zack with Stamp that I think are clearly intentional. But I don't think it means anything from a storyline perspective. It's just narrative framing. Zack represents the ideal and innocent image of SOLDIER, and is a hero that does his best.
Ironic that both are essentially archetypes that don't actually exist anymore. Well technically, a Zack exists in some form, wherever he is post ending.
Ironic that both are essentially archetypes that don't actually exist anymore. Well technically, a Zack exists in some form, wherever he is post ending.
ultima786
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- ultima
That is really compelling. Thank you for sharing
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
So a dead Zack is having his memory altered so that Whispers are encircling Midgar while he fights off a small army of MPs? And Jenova is braindead operating on either instinct or at the will of Sephiroth. Neither has much reason to fuck with Zack.
But it IS a pretty bad hypothesis. It fails to address the information as given with barely a shrug in return.
If you think there are things that show he's in the lifestream, what are they?
So despite his survival, he dies off screen and doesn't even realize it? We're shown Zack live only for Sixth Sense to happen an hour later?
Where are you getting that the whispers were making a replica Midgar? Furthermore, why would they be doing this? What continuity preservation does this serve?
So Aerith created a pocket dimension for the souls of the dead, essentially? Is that what you are proposing?
Again, FF7's lore already includes the existence of dimensions beyond itself. OG Cloud has personally visited several of them himself.
Exactly. All these details are there for us, the audience. Not for Zack or Cloud or Aerith. Okay, maybe Aerith, but mostly us. If Zack is dead, then these details are entirely pointless and calling them out like this is moreso.
My hypothesis, and I suspect Mako's as well is that FF7R Zack is D-E-D dead. What we encounter at the end of R is either an alternate dimension juuuuust near enough to ours to be affected by the destruction of the whispers, or perhaps an explicit temporal paradox.
Resting, probably?
Under the assumption that we're dealing with a different copy of reality, yes, there are other duplicates. Assuming Alternate Zack and Cloud are in the main timeline, probably not.
As for what happens when Cloud learns there's a living Zack, it might break him, or it might never even happen.
LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
The scene when he enters the church in intermission is evidence. In the doorway when he enters, it's white behind him. Same as in advent children.
I took into account the statements from SE as well. Won't be driving too far from what we know as FF7, and using elements from the compilation. Check an check.
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Depends on how you interpret those statements, especially when you look at what Kitase considers "big changes." He also sort of backtracked in later statements. The only thing he confirmed was that they will be visiting the same locations. And to them, the Compilation of FFVII is also FFVII.
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Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Wait, what exactly has Kitase backtracked on?
Like, for instance he literally says:
And then there's:
I'm not going to dig up the quote from Nomura that the reason Vincent wasn't showing up in Intermission was because according to FFVII's main story, Vincent would be sleep in Shinra Manor.
So overall, nothing any of the creators have said have alluded to an "anything goes" FFVII, unmoored from the original narrative to the point it'll be an unrecognizable story. They've been reiterating that FFVIIR's story will parallel the OG with a few changes and adaptions to enhance the story and surprise players pleasantly. But ultimately, still retain the fact it's FFVII. I don't see a backtrack here, just a reiteration of their intent.
This can easily be done by concurrently running the core storyline of FFVII alongside a new broader, wrap around plot that unfolds separately at key points during FFVII, and then intersects near the end of FFVII, to bring it all together. Essentially like how Part 1 followed the OG 98% of the time until the end where a surprise finale appeared to wrap up the entry. That ending introduced a new element that is important to the broader Remake scenario perspective, but also conveniently dovetails back to the core OG story of finding Sephiroth and proceeding with the main story. Those two tracks can remain in parallel until the end moment where bringing them together suits the story best. Which I feel is more than likely the final showdown.
Like, for instance he literally says:
And then there's:
I'm not going to dig up the quote from Nomura that the reason Vincent wasn't showing up in Intermission was because according to FFVII's main story, Vincent would be sleep in Shinra Manor.
So overall, nothing any of the creators have said have alluded to an "anything goes" FFVII, unmoored from the original narrative to the point it'll be an unrecognizable story. They've been reiterating that FFVIIR's story will parallel the OG with a few changes and adaptions to enhance the story and surprise players pleasantly. But ultimately, still retain the fact it's FFVII. I don't see a backtrack here, just a reiteration of their intent.
This can easily be done by concurrently running the core storyline of FFVII alongside a new broader, wrap around plot that unfolds separately at key points during FFVII, and then intersects near the end of FFVII, to bring it all together. Essentially like how Part 1 followed the OG 98% of the time until the end where a surprise finale appeared to wrap up the entry. That ending introduced a new element that is important to the broader Remake scenario perspective, but also conveniently dovetails back to the core OG story of finding Sephiroth and proceeding with the main story. Those two tracks can remain in parallel until the end moment where bringing them together suits the story best. Which I feel is more than likely the final showdown.
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GuardBreak
Lv. 25 Adventurer
Kitase's interview with Guardian came out after the ultimania. When asked whether future parts will diverge from the original, this was his answer
Besides, it's a bit of a stretch to say that part 1 followed the OG by 98%. There are good reasons to think they're changing the story based on some things they did with part 1
Eerie
Fire and Blood
@Roundhouse thank you for your post! I already did notice some parallels, but this is really interesting as it points at everything at once! The Stamp in front of a pyramid is really interesting as it would point to Zack in front of the Temple of the Ancients.
Yes. This is the shock reveal they would be keeping for later on IF this theory is true. Elmyra's husband also wasn't aware that he died, it's something that really bugs me.
This was noticed a few months back, so you probably missed it, but yes, the Whispers were creating a replica of Midgar. Why is one of the mysteries. It may allude to different timelines, or something Sephiroth has his eyes set on, etc. We don't know, that's the fun!
Yup, to prevent them from merging with the Lifestream. Again, I will not argue for it, it's probably totally off base, but that could explain what we see at the end of Intergrade.
That would indeed explain that, because to me it's a big point that is important enough to make the alternate timeline theory void. It remains to be seen how his timeline would affect ours though, and that's something that makes me really doubtbful. Did that Zack cross the thin reality to join our reality? It would be the only way, I guess.
@jeangl123 @GuardBreak : the devs have confirmed since then that FFVII Remake will STILL be FFVII story. They have pointed at the Wallmarket to explain what they consider as a "big change", and I think no one ever pointed at Wallmarket as the chapter that changes everything in Remake. To everyone, it is an "updated" chapter, just as I expect Cloud jumping with the help of a dolphin... not happening in Remake.
Yes. This is the shock reveal they would be keeping for later on IF this theory is true. Elmyra's husband also wasn't aware that he died, it's something that really bugs me.
This was noticed a few months back, so you probably missed it, but yes, the Whispers were creating a replica of Midgar. Why is one of the mysteries. It may allude to different timelines, or something Sephiroth has his eyes set on, etc. We don't know, that's the fun!
Yup, to prevent them from merging with the Lifestream. Again, I will not argue for it, it's probably totally off base, but that could explain what we see at the end of Intergrade.
That would indeed explain that, because to me it's a big point that is important enough to make the alternate timeline theory void. It remains to be seen how his timeline would affect ours though, and that's something that makes me really doubtbful. Did that Zack cross the thin reality to join our reality? It would be the only way, I guess.
@jeangl123 @GuardBreak : the devs have confirmed since then that FFVII Remake will STILL be FFVII story. They have pointed at the Wallmarket to explain what they consider as a "big change", and I think no one ever pointed at Wallmarket as the chapter that changes everything in Remake. To everyone, it is an "updated" chapter, just as I expect Cloud jumping with the help of a dolphin... not happening in Remake.
eleamaya
Pro Adventurer
Look, Clay is aware of his death when he wanted to see Elmyra for the last time to say goodbye.
Zack also embrace his death in CC as he took Angeal's hand. My HC is he never visit Aerith like Clay because they already meet in same situation as Marcellus' case. Marcellus notice Aerith in his dying moment, why not Zack? That happens when Aerith is closing her eyes to pray.
Intergrade ending really contradict it if Zack wasn't aware; it becomes out of character. He's just simply alive in an absurd circumstance we still cannot explain certainly. And the church CGI in intergrade ending is exactly the same as CC ending where Aerith was there sensing his life fading away.
Ideally, this is what Zack want to see:
instead, he sees:
Also, based on the storyboard in the FF7R Material Ultimania, the rock Zack is looking at here:
is the same as this rock when Cloud come out:
So how do people still think that he would be gunned down when he has already walked out of his dying spot carrying Cloud the same time he walk pass Cloud and Aerith from the other side?
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ForceStealer
Double Growth
No one actually thinks he's just gonna get gunned down anyway, do they? It's pretty obvious he will not, I just want him to be 
Sephiroth Crescent
Way Ahead of the Plot
CC's last stand had two phases: Zack puts Cloud near a wall of rocks, battles army.
Then fades to black, there's running and shooting (was Cloud moved at this phase?).
Finally at the end of the hill, it's all dark, cloudy, and he gets shot to death, so it rains.
This is all from memory. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Then fades to black, there's running and shooting (was Cloud moved at this phase?).
Finally at the end of the hill, it's all dark, cloudy, and he gets shot to death, so it rains.
This is all from memory. Correct me if I'm wrong.
LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
Yes, that's what I remember too. Which is what I think will essentially happen again in remake. Maybe not the exact same way though.
eleamaya
Pro Adventurer
He seems to win before the sky go cloudy.
"Was it all of them?"
Also this helicopter here
is crashed here:
LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
Look, Clay is aware of his death when he wanted to see Elmyra for the last time to say goodbye.
Zack also embrace his death in CC as he took Angeal's hand. My HC is he never visit Aerith like Clay because they already meet in same situation as Marcellus' case. Marcellus notice Aerith in his dying moment, why not Zack? That happens when Aerith is closing her eyes to pray.
Intergrade ending really contradict it if Zack wasn't aware; it becomes out of character. He's just simply alive in an absurd circumstance we still cannot explain certainly. And the church CGI in intergrade ending is exactly the same as CC ending where Aerith was there sensing his life fading away.
Ideally, this is what Zack want to see:
instead, he sees:
Also, based on the storyboard in the FF7R Material Ultimania, the rock Zack is looking at here:
is the same as this rock when Cloud come out:
View attachment 11985
So how do people still think that he would be gunned down when he has already walked out of his dying spot carrying Cloud the same time he walk pass Cloud and Aerith from the other side?
Maybe they'll show it later, or do something similar to it. I have seen movies where they do this.
Down to Earth
Lovely bones
Sephiroth Crescent
Way Ahead of the Plot
@eleamaya
There was at least 2 or 3 helicopters in the army battle, no?
Edit:
Anyway, the only truth is this
There was at least 2 or 3 helicopters in the army battle, no?
Edit:
Anyway, the only truth is this
Whatever comes next, it is unknown.
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LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
Oh I know it depends. But, I still interpret it as not much is going to change. We'll still get the story we know, just told in a different way. Whatever that may be
Thenir
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nirnaeth
Yes, there are countless parallels (there's also a book about Stamp fanclub, and CC stated that Zack had his personal one, like Sephiroth, Angeal and Genesis) and I'd say that the fact that Stamp changes breed exactly when Zack seems to change his destiny is what seals the deal imo.
If I had to bet I'd say Stamp's main role is to be representative of Cloud's altered identity, it symbolizes that ideal of hero that was played by Zack and later by Cloud as his living legacy, and the change of breed may symbolize - more than a faulty memory - the fact that in a reality where Zack survives, Cloud can't take over his role.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Literally nothing in that quote from the Guardian refutes anything they stated previously. It speaks to their intent to keeping fans talking about the game. What part of that are you talking about?
And no it isn't a stretch. Aside from the additional new shit added in the final chapter, the Remake was a pretty faithful adaptation. What arbitrary percentage do you think suits it better? 90%? 85%? 75%? The vast majority of the game was on the rails of the progression of the OG.
Whatever "good reasons" one interprets, you have them repeating over and over the direction and outline of how they intend to tackle the Remake. Are they lying? If they're worried about Vincent sleeping in Shinra Manor, what's that mean?
Eerie
Fire and Blood
@eleamaya to me, it doesn't really matter how things went on in CC or the OG, because if anything, the devs have proven they're not afraid to reinterpret scenes every time. So there could be discrepancies.
The thing I have the most problem with, is a parallel universe Zack; can we really say "he's Zack!" when he's from a parallel universe? Would his reunion with our Aerith really be fulfilling did it happen like this? What happened to comatose!Cloud? Will we see him pursue the team with a comatose Cloud on the shoulder? Having two parallel universes interact is really complex, and I'm not sure it's for the best. And BTW, is Biggs from that alternate universe, or is it our Biggs who survived? I mean, he's down very low on the tower, maybe someone did get there and saved him?
Which doesn't mean I'm not playing with the idea myself. To me, this is how the two options look:
- Zack is dead: it simplifies the whole thing by a lot, allowing him to roam in the Lifestream , maybe help here and there before finally reuniting with Aerith when she dies. We will finally be able to see what Aerith does after her death and how she continues to help the team, especially in a part of the story that is less dense (that one is an old wish of mine, maybe it's why I'm partial to it). It also frees up a lot of developing time
- Zack is alive: it complexifies the story, but does give a huge bone to the fans, offering a mystery that cannot be solved and letting them imagine what could be. A LOT of questions ought to be resolved with that one, and it does not solve the zerith reunion. It also demands a lot of developing time that is not devoted to the main story.
This is basically why I go back and forth between the two options. I think the simpler option would be #1, but maybe they are up to go for #2. I'm honestly not betting on anything as everything looks appealing to me and I trust them to make me interested in this new development.
The thing I have the most problem with, is a parallel universe Zack; can we really say "he's Zack!" when he's from a parallel universe? Would his reunion with our Aerith really be fulfilling did it happen like this? What happened to comatose!Cloud? Will we see him pursue the team with a comatose Cloud on the shoulder? Having two parallel universes interact is really complex, and I'm not sure it's for the best. And BTW, is Biggs from that alternate universe, or is it our Biggs who survived? I mean, he's down very low on the tower, maybe someone did get there and saved him?
Which doesn't mean I'm not playing with the idea myself. To me, this is how the two options look:
- Zack is dead: it simplifies the whole thing by a lot, allowing him to roam in the Lifestream , maybe help here and there before finally reuniting with Aerith when she dies. We will finally be able to see what Aerith does after her death and how she continues to help the team, especially in a part of the story that is less dense (that one is an old wish of mine, maybe it's why I'm partial to it). It also frees up a lot of developing time
- Zack is alive: it complexifies the story, but does give a huge bone to the fans, offering a mystery that cannot be solved and letting them imagine what could be. A LOT of questions ought to be resolved with that one, and it does not solve the zerith reunion. It also demands a lot of developing time that is not devoted to the main story.
This is basically why I go back and forth between the two options. I think the simpler option would be #1, but maybe they are up to go for #2. I'm honestly not betting on anything as everything looks appealing to me and I trust them to make me interested in this new development.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
It's bright out, yes, but it's not the same diffuse white of the Lifestream in AC/C. It's a strong backlight, like when Reno bursts in in 7R's main story.
Zack imagining a Cloud and these other people in the lifestream is a larger deviation to how we understand dead people in the lifestream and the story of FF7 than a parallel plot running alongisde that may never directly interact with the main plot that has ALREADY had a serious deviation from the primary FF7 plot.
But to what end? Zack's death wasn't a twist, Zack living was. Going "Ah-ah! We tricked you by making you think we changed it!" serves no narrative purpose.
No, I knew about the duplicate Midgar bits in the climax, but we were talking about Zack's last stand and I thought you were talking about the Whispers swirling around Midgar during that sequence building that Midgar.
Okay. Why? Why would an Aerith who knows enough to be able to do this stop the natural cycle of life and death?
Maybe the point isn't those timelines affecting the main timelines as the main timeline affecting and making the new timelines.
As there are technically divergence points in the universe from before the moment of Zack's death, technically no, BUT also effectively yes? We don't know how drastic the changes are- was Stamp even a thing when Zack went in the tubes, for example- but I think it's reasonable to assume the universe is more or less the same for narrative ease.
Coma!Cloud is probably safely stashed away wherever Zack found lodging. And maybe just because I've been swimming in comic books since I was a wee lad, but dimensional crossovers are really pretty simple to me.
On this case I am of the suspicion that Jessie faked her own death to lay low and went and rescued him.
My personal opinion is that Zack is alive, but he is not of nor is he IN our universe. Not now, anyways. That might change if we tear a few more whisper holes in the fabric of time.
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Eerie
Fire and Blood
Oh no I was talking about this scene because we still don't know wtf the Whispers were doing, in the end. What if that copy of Midgar is the one Zack is in, for example? Do the Whispers create alternate universes and decide to interact with the one that carries the best the will of the Planet? Do they interact in every timeline? Someone mentioned that they thought Zack was from the start in an alternate timeline (I don't remember who, sorry! It was definitely here) because the Whispers there did not seem to want to harm him in his Last Stand scene. So I feel there is a lot to think about, and our understanding about the whole thing is far from perfect.
It would be an unwanted side effect of her portal, her strong will to help Zack in some way rather than doing it knowingly. Again not arguing that it's what happened though, but something definitely did happen when she created that portal. There's also her being bugged when they're about to show Zack in front of the church at the end of Intergrade, which leads me to believe that whatever she did, she did not plan it at all and she doesn't know about it, whether we're talking about the souls in the Lifestream, or an alternate timeline.
I don't really see the point of this though. Just add something that brings NOTHING to the story (except to say: look, another timeline!) is weird at best, that's why I'm looking at it on the other side: it has to affect the main story.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
Well, IF they are creating alternate timelines, they are also creating this new Zack, so it would make sense they wouldn't be interfering in his last stand, since he does canonically face down a whole load of MPs and that's the stage of the fight he's at when the whispers are blasted away. However, if he's dead, why are the whispers watching him to begin with? Why are they making him relive his last stand some months after it happens?
Well, as mentioned above, his last stand scene was going on script until they get blasted, so I think they were just there monitoring things ready to intervene only if necessary.
Also yes, he also has to have always been in an alternate universe of some other distinct reality BECAUSE of the different versions of Stamp.
Well, indirectly it's a side effect of the portal regardless, because opening the portal leads to the fight that leads to the banishment of the whispers that results in Zack's survival.
I'm not saying it won't affect the story. I'm saying it won't affect the party. The party, creating altered universes would in fact be a major plot point worth addressing neat the end of the narrative when they become aware of it happening.