Relationship between Remake and the original? (split from the "How many parts?" thread)

[Sephiroth Crescent]

You're infering the wrong meaning, Tres.

Edit: I was about to change it just right now, but decided against it anyway.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

By our (mostly) common understanding that Remake is -- as a matter of cause and effect -- happening because the original game's sequence of events happened, that fulfills the qualification.

But we don’t actually know if the events of the original actually happened already in-universe ...

That's why I referred to it only as the common understanding most people who have played the original and Remake have taken. =P

... otherwise wouldn’t any remake of anything also be a sequel by virtue of just coming out at a later time?

You're talking about our continuity -- i.e. the real world. I specified I was using "sequel" in reference to "a fictional continuity's sequence of events."

 

[Fiz]

This thread about to take a sharp turn

lol

You're infering the wrong meaning, Tres.

Edit: I was about to change it just right now, but decided against it anyway.

I'm glad you didn't, it was funny.

No, really, @Fiz would you please share a clip of that Aerith+Chadley intercourse?
Just curious now, since I don't remember seeing that.

I'm not finding it in any lets plays because people rush to talk to everyone too fast. I'll record it myself, but I'm not sure how to capture video so it might be a hideous phone recording. Aren't I nice


Edit: Doesn't work with chapter select. Gotta find a lets play because I can't be arsed to replay from an old save

 

[Teioh]

Here you go:

 

[Fiz]

Here you go:

Yeah, thats thats the one, thanks


I'm a little disappointed tbh, if I'd recorded it I was going to name the video "Chadley tries to intercourse Aerith"

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

Okay, I've been reminded. Don't actually see what @Fiz meant with it, though.
Dammit, Chadley's english VA sounds so weird to me right now.

 

[Fiz]

Okay, I've been reminded. Don't actually see what @Fiz meant with it, though.
Dammit, Chadley's english VA sounds so weird to me right now.

When Chadley assessed Cloud in Sector 7, then attempts to do the same with Aerith there... this is the same as us using Assess on enemies, no?

If something cannot be read, its because something is "weird", like Sephiroth cannot be read. Its just one of many weird little hints at something being "off". Not that it is definitive.

 

[Theozilla]

When Chadley assessed Cloud in Sector 7, then attempts to do the same with Aerith there... this is the same as us using Assess on enemies, no?

If something cannot be read, its because something is "weird", like Sephiroth cannot be read. Its just one of many weird little hints at something being "off". Not that it is definitive.

Maybe it's different with the Japanese dialogue, but in that posted clip Chadley's just sayin he's running diagnostics, and that Aerith doesn't appear in his database, that doesn't really indicate whether or not he's literally using the Assess materia on her or not.
And even if he was, keep in mind that the FF bestiaries are subject to a level of gameplay-story segregation, not everything stated in them are stuff that the characters themselves know or have access to. Also her being weird like Sephiroth just means she's weird and mysterious like him, which is true in all versions of FFVII's story, its not exactly evidence for them being Kaworu-esque loopers in the Remake.

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah I think I read that as he's checking his Shinra database and she isn't listed due to being a top secret asset.

But who knows anymore, lol.

 

[Fiz]

Maybe it's different with the Japanese dialogue, but in that posted clip Chadley's just sayin he's running diagnostics, and that Aerith doesn't appear in his database, that doesn't really indicate whether or not he's literally using the Assess materia on her or not.
And even if he was, keep in mind that the FF bestiaries are subject to a level of gameplay-story segregation, not everything stated in them are stuff that the characters themselves know or have access to. Also her being weird like Sephiroth just means she's weird and mysterious like him, which is true in all versions of FFVII's story, its not exactly evidence for them being Kaworu-esque loopers in the Remake.

Okay, I take that point. Like you could assume its because she spent her life in Shinra HQ a lot of the time so maybe isn't on any "public records".

However, first when he did it to Cloud that seemed like an "Assess" rather than looking him up on records, he was analysing his data such as bone density, muscle mass, etc. At the time I took it as him Assessing Cloud, so I assume he is doing the same here.

Secondly, that dialogue is hidden away where most people won't see it, and its missable even with Chapter Select. Therefore, all things considered, I would take it as "something weird". On its own it doesn't really say much, but when you consider all the weird things then I think they start to point to something really weird... if that makes sense? If I add them all together, then what is this trying to tell us?

 

[KindOfBlue]

But that being a thing puts it chronologically after OG and that Compilation is a thing (plus AC Sephy) puts it after Compilation. That doesn't need a massive explanation either.

My original point was that it isn’t a “sequel instead of a remake” just because it demonstrates awareness of the Compilation. But either way, as of right now, the remake takes place in its own continuity. In-universe, AC and the rest of OG haven’t actually occurred yet, nor has it ever been proven that “AC Sephiroth” is who we’ve faced. That connection between the OG continuity and remake continuity just isn’t clear yet.

You're talking about our continuity -- i.e. the real world. I specified I was using "sequel" in reference to "a fictional continuity's sequence of events.

That’s the thing though, until we establish that link between the OG and the remake, aren’t we just dealing with two separate continuities? That’s why I don’t buy it as a sequel to the OG because the OG just never happened in the remake, at least from what we’ve been shown

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That’s the thing though, until we establish that link between the OG and the remake, aren’t we just dealing with two separate continuities?

At the risk of repeating myself without it being necessary, I have thrice now said I'm referring to the prevalent understanding inferred by many players of the original and Remake.

 

[Theozilla]

Okay, I take that point. Like you could assume its because she spent her life in Shinra HQ a lot of the time so maybe isn't on any "public records".

However, first when he did it to Cloud that seemed like an "Assess" rather than looking him up on records, he was analysing his data such as bone density, muscle mass, etc. At the time I took it as him Assessing Cloud, so I assume he is doing the same here.

Secondly, that dialogue is hidden away where most people won't see it, and its missable even with Chapter Select. Therefore, all things considered, I would take it as "something weird". On its own it doesn't really say much, but when you consider all the weird things then I think they start to point to something really weird... if that makes sense? If I add them all together, then what is this trying to tell us?

Eh either way, whether it's a case of Assess materia being used or not, I wouldn't put much stock for significant lore implications for something that inherently has a high degree of gameplay-story segregation.
And sure its a weird thing, but as @KindOfBlue also stated, its just more weird/mysterious stuff that occurs within the Remake itself. I just don't think all the weird/meta mysterious stuff going on with Aerith and Sephiroth is indicative of them being Rebuild!Kaworu-esque loopers.

 

[KindOfBlue]

At the risk of repeating myself without it being necessary, I have thrice now said I'm referring to the prevalent understanding inferred by many players of the original and Remake.

But...because that’s still not what makes it a sequel, can we just use a different word already lol like I get what you’re saying but the more people keep mentioning “sequel”, the more the conversation goes in circles lmao

EDIT: going in circles...like the timeline whooOOOOOooooh...

 

[Theozilla]

But...because that’s still not what makes it a sequel, can we just use a different word already lol like I get what you’re saying but the more people keep mentioning “sequel”, the more the conversation goes in circles lmao

EDIT: going in circles...like the timeline whooOOOOOooooh...

I think what you're missing is that Tres is saying than many OG+Remake players (not necessarily a majority or even a plurality, but a decent amount) interpret all the weird mysterious meta stuff happening in the Remake as sufficient evidence that the Remake's narrative "occurs successively in a fictional continuity's sequence of events" in relation to the OG's narrative, which is why they feel its accurate to label the Remake as a "sequel" (like how the Rebuild of Evangelion films are to the TV show).
However, you and me (and also many others) disagree with that interpretation and thing all the weird mysterious meta stuff happening in the Remake is just something self-contained to its own canonical narrative and its more just thematic winks and homages from the developers.

 

[Fiz]

My original point was that it isn’t a “sequel instead of a remake” just because it demonstrates awareness of the Compilation. But either way, as of right now, the remake takes place in its own continuity. In-universe, AC and the rest of OG haven’t actually occurred yet, nor has it ever been proven that “AC Sephiroth” is who we’ve faced. That connection between the OG continuity and remake continuity just isn’t clear yet.

Well, they've said that this is the final entry of the Compilation and will close it off, haven't they? If thats incorrect and I'm imagining then I'll stand corrected, but if its correct then that measn Remake doesn't exist as its own continuity but part of the main continuity.

With that in mind, it's going to sit at the end and I suspect it exists beyond all of the Compilation chronologically. So when we say AC Sephiroth, I don't think he is literally *the* Sephiroth from AC but something beyond that, something that has became almost celestial with the ability to either time travel or something. I suspect a loop, but it could be any number of things.

Also, when I say beond Compilation, I think possibly Sephiroth has either seen Clouds death, or seen the end of the planet and realised that he cannot exist without either Cloud or the planet existing (depending on how that stuff actually works) so wants to transcend that. Aerith has then reacted to whatever Sephiroth has done. The twist is then that both Sephiroth and Aerith exist as beings outside of the world as we know it, that we can't change Aeriths fate because thats already happened, and this is taking place far in the future (by some as yet unknown mechanism) and will result in a more grand showtown between the two. The idea of Remake is then to stop this version of Sephiroth even being able to come into existance by remaking the timeline.

I also suspect Aerith is already dead because it shoots two birds with one stone.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I think what you're missing is that Tres is saying than many OG+Remake players (not necessarily a majority or even a plurality, but a decent amount) interpret all the weird mysterious meta stuff happening in the Remake as sufficient evidence that the Remake's narrative "occurs successively in a fictional continuity's sequence of events" in relation to the OG's narrative, which is why they feel its accurate to label the Remake as a "sequel" (like how the Rebuild of Evangelion films are to the TV show).
However, you and me (and also many others) disagree with that interpretation and thing all the weird mysterious meta stuff happening in the Remake is just something self-contained to its own canonical narrative and its more just thematic winks and homages from the developers.

No I totally get that but not everybody is as clear as he is when it comes to making those distinctions, so it sometimes becomes a thing of “well, in order to infer this, we must first infer that, and then to infer that, we must then infer this” and so on and so forth, kind of like what I’m going to have to do next lol

Well, they've said that this is the final entry of the Compilation and will close it off, haven't they? If thats incorrect and I'm imagining then I'll stand corrected, but if its correct then that measn Remake doesn't exist as its own continuity but part of the main continuity.

Nah you’re right about them saying it would close out the Compilation, the part that cannot be determined yet is the conclusion that you drew from it. I actually like how the FF wiki describes Cloud’s history for example. https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Cloud_Strife You may notice some overlap but the wiki makes a distinction between what’s in the original continuity and what’s in the remake’s. Just seems to me like a better way to examine what’s happening with the current info we have.

So when we say AC Sephiroth, I don't think he is literally *the* Sephiroth from AC but something beyond that, something that has became almost celestial with the ability to either time travel or something.

For clarity’s sake then, wouldn’t it be best to just stop calling him AC Sephiroth already lol?

Also, when I say beond Compilation, I think possibly Sephiroth has either seen Clouds death, or seen the end of the planet and realised that he cannot exist without either Cloud or the planet existing (depending on how that stuff actually works) so wants to transcend that. Aerith has then reacted to whatever Sephiroth has done. The twist is then that both Sephiroth and Aerith exist as beings outside of the world as we know it, that we can't change Aeriths fate because thats already happened, and this is taking place far in the future (by some as yet unknown mechanism) and will result in a more grand showtown between the two. The idea of Remake is then to stop this version of Sephiroth even being able to come into existance by remaking the timeline.

I also suspect Aerith is already dead because it shoots two birds with one stone.

I’m not against all this (actually a lot of it ties into what I think might be happening) but I wonder how Aerith’s death scene would play out if that’s true

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think what you're missing is that Tres is saying than many OG+Remake players (not necessarily a majority or even a plurality, but a decent amount) interpret all the weird mysterious meta stuff happening in the Remake as sufficient evidence that the Remake's narrative "occurs successively in a fictional continuity's sequence of events" in relation to the OG's narrative, which is why they feel its accurate to label the Remake as a "sequel" (like how the Rebuild of Evangelion films are to the TV show).
However, you and me (and also many others) disagree with that interpretation and thing all the weird mysterious meta stuff happening in the Remake is just something self-contained to its own canonical narrative and its more just thematic winks and homages from the developers.

Yes, that's it precisely! Thanks, Theo.

So, yeah, replying to that to say we don’t yet have confirmation the events of the original have already happened from Remake's perspective leaves me over here wondering why you're repeating part of what I just said back to me. LOL

Like, yeah, that's inherent in what I said already, but that understanding is why many of us use the word "sequel" and don't see any reason why you wouldn't use that word.

I also suspect Aerith is already dead because it shoots two shitbirds [/Reno] with one stone.

Fixed.

But also, that's funny because my wife (who doesn't already know FFVII's story) asked me at one point if Aerith is supposed to be a ghost and I was left momentarily speechless both because I'm wondering what she picked up on and because I don't know either.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So I have a hypothetical question then.

If this turns out to be a reconstituted Sephiroth from the distant future where the Planet's met its ultimate end and he's reached back through time via the Lifestream to assert influence in the present of FFVII-R, would that make this a "sequel?"

None of the characters would "remember" him, but he would have knowledge of them. And the characters would be going through FFVII itself, while then having to deal with a future shade of the same villain they're fighting against, wishing to hijack the opportunity to presumably, succeed and thwart his own "death."

This is what makes this delineation tricky. It sorta feels like it could be argued both ways.

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah I have to admit the sequel argument lost me awhile ago.

 

[Odysseus]

I've been viewing it as the thematic end-point of FF7 as a whole. Whether or not it's literally a sequel is to be seen.

 

[KindOfBlue]

but that understanding is why many of us use the word "sequel" and don't see any reason why you wouldn't use that word.

Would it still be a sequel though if the events of both games were not successive but concurrent? Apologies if my point isn’t clear here, it’s just to me it’s not a sequel unless they say it’s a sequel and so to call it one has some implications of its own

So I have a hypothetical question then.

If this turns out to be a reconstituted Sephiroth from the distant future where the Planet's met its ultimate end and he's reached back through time via the Lifestream to assert influence in the present of FFVII-R, would that make this a "sequel?"

None of the characters would "remember" him, but he would have knowledge of them. And the characters would be going through FFVII itself, while then having to deal with a future shade of the same villain they're fighting against, wishing to hijack the opportunity to presumably, succeed and thwart his own "death."

This is what makes this delineation tricky. It sorta feels like it could be argued both ways.

For me the key here is continuity: if it really is a Sephiroth from the future, is it the future of the OG’s continuity or the remake’s continuity?

 

[Makoeyes987]

For me the key here is continuity: if it really is a Sephiroth from the future, is it the future of the OG’s continuity or the remake’s continuity?

Does it really matter? All that I'm saying is that it's Sephiroth from the far future when the Planet's essentially dead. He has the memories and knowledge of the Sephiroth we've seen up until Advent Children and beyond but he's from the "Edge of Creation/End of the world."

For the FFVII-R characters, this is all happening in the present, so none of the "future" has happened yet.

 

[Areega]

I really really hope that Sephiroth isn't a time traveller from the future. Please let there be some other explanation for everything that does not include actual time travel. Seeing the future is okay to me, but not characters actually coming from the future.

But if it does end up being a time travel story, then I will just write my own fanfic (for me only) and take out or change the bits I don't like lol.

 

[Theozilla]

Anyways while I don't think, and definitely don't prefer/desire the interpretation that Aerith and the ???Sephiroth of the Remake are pulling a Rebuild!Kaworu and/or Homura (from Madoka Magica) for their schtick in the Remake, I suppose we won't ultimately know for sure until the Remake project is over, even if we're as assured with our own interpretations as Ancient academics were sure with their position that Achilles was a top or bottom to Patroclus. And if the Remake does turn out to be pulling a Rebuild of Evangelion like some people think, while I might be somewhat disappointed with that outcome and feel somewhat mislead, I don't think think I will feel "betrayed" by the Remake or developers.

Either scenario, I don't think even if the Remake is somehow pulling a Rebuild of Evangelion, that will cause the all the major locals and events from the OG to be cut from the future Remake installments. Part of the whole appeal of this mega project is being able to revisit those locations and events.

So I have a hypothetical question then.

If this turns out to be a reconstituted Sephiroth from the distant future where the Planet's met its ultimate end and he's reached back through time via the Lifestream to assert influence in the present of FFVII-R, would that make this a "sequel?"

None of the characters would "remember" him, but he would have knowledge of them. And the characters would be going through FFVII itself, while then having to deal with a future shade of the same villain they're fighting against, wishing to hijack the opportunity to presumably, succeed and thwart his own "death."

This is what makes this delineation tricky. It sorta feels like it could be argued both ways.

Hmmm, like what @KindOfBlue said, I would only say that makes it a sequel if the ???Sephiroth ends up coming from a future where his past was specifically the OG and thus causality-wise the Remake's sequence of events was "created" as a direct result of him coming to the past; but if ???Sephiroth's past was the Remake (or something similar to it) and Sephiroth is instead unwittingly actually just performing a self-fulfilling prophecy/predestination paradox for his own defeat, then no I would not consider it a sequel.