Relationship between Remake and the original? (split from the "How many parts?" thread)

[KindOfBlue]

It's not quite this either though. Everything about Cloud that happened *before* Remake "starts" happened as far as both the OG and Remake are concerned. Remake Cloud isn't a "brand new" Cloud. He's still got the same past as OG Cloud did. You just now have different events happening to the character once you get to the time of the OG.

In fact, it's that way for all of the cast. Anything the OG (and Compilation) goes into about their past can be safely assumed to have happened as far as Remake is concerned. It's not so much a "new take" on these characters, as it is... splitting timelines. They have the same "past" with a changed "present" from their OG selves.

Unless you're Aerith or Sephrioth... and then things get more mixed up because they seem to know something about how the other timeline turned out already. But that still don't change that their "past" was at one point the same as the past they had up until they got the knowledge of the other timeline.

Keywords here: “two versions of the same character”. Remake Cloud shares his backstory with the OG Cloud and will experience much of the same things but that doesn’t mean he is OG Cloud by virtue of the remake not being the OG. Whatever “unknown journey” he’s embarking on, it’ll be the remake’s version of Cloud, not the OG’s. Whether or not both versions share a backstory is irrelevant to my point because my point is that they are both the same character, but they exist within two separate continuities that do not cross each other...so far.

OG Cloud never went to Jessie’s house, or met Roche, or danced at the Honeybee Inn, or defeated Hell House in the colosseum, or fought Jenova in the Shinra building because those events simply did not happen in the OG. And as for the events of the Compilation that are alluded to in the remake, it’s because they also happen to exist in the remake’s continuity as well. Like I’ve said, the remake continuity mirrors the OG’s but it’s still it’s own continuity.

It’s really not that much different than the relationship between a novel’s version of a character versus the film adaptation’s version of the same character. Sorry if I’ve exhausted the issue but I’m having a hard time understanding the disconnect here.

EDIT: here’s my own crappy diagram lol I hope it makes what I’m saying more clear

 

[Ite]

Keywords here: “two versions of the same character”. Remake Cloud shares his backstory with the OG Cloud and will experience much of the same things but that doesn’t mean he is OG Cloud by virtue of the remake not being the OG. Whatever “unknown journey” he’s embarking on, it’ll be the remake’s version of Cloud, not the OG’s. Whether or not both versions share a backstory is irrelevant to my point because my point is that they are both the same character, but they exist within two separate continuities that do not cross each other...so far.

OG Cloud never went to Jessie’s house, or met Roche, or danced at the Honeybee Inn, or defeated Hell House in the colosseum, or fought Jenova in the Shinra building because those events simply did not happen in the OG. And as for the events of the Compilation that are alluded to in the remake, it’s because they also happen to exist in the remake’s continuity as well. Like I’ve said, the remake continuity mirrors the OG’s but it’s still it’s own continuity.

It’s really not that much different than the relationship between a novel’s version of a character versus the film adaptation’s version of the same character. Sorry if I’ve exhausted the issue but I’m having a hard time understanding the disconnect here.

EDIT: here’s my own crappy diagram lol I hope it makes what I’m saying more clear
View attachment 9444

Yes except that there can be no future for the Beagle timeline, because the events of Remake can only end with Terrier timeline, so Beagle timeline must be a temporal cul-de-sac (if you will) created by the events of AC and———g—ahh—!! This is why you can’t just slap time travel onto a story already bursting with aliens, magic crystals and Veerhovenesque class war.

 

[oty]

I actually think it's so rad we just named two temporal continuities based on......types of dogs.

Yeah, I know it's based on the stamp, but imagine having this very confusing, complicated discussion of time and space and using "Beagle" to call out an actual whole reality.

Schrödinger's dog if you will....is it a beagle or a terrier?

 

[KindOfBlue]

Yes except that there can be no future for the Beagle timeline, because the events of Remake can only end with Terrier timeline, so Beagle timeline must be a temporal cul-de-sac (if you will) created by the events of AC and———g—ahh—!! This is why you can’t just slap time travel onto a story already bursting with aliens, magic crystals and Veerhovenesque class war.

I mean where they actually go with the timeline split (assuming that’s even what’s happening) is a different story altogether, it’s completely up in the air at this point lol pretty much this whole conversation is built on speculation so there’s no way to fairly judge how well these devices work in the story currently but the point here is to say that “a future in which the events of AC could have happened” and “a future in which AC did happen” aren’t the same future, and even if they were, there’s still a difference between the original version of AC and the remake’s equivalent of AC.

EDIT: Ever Crisis will be an interesting case with all this in mind. Presumably it’ll be compiling everything in the Compilation except for the remake, which leads me to believe BC, CC, the OG, AC, and DoC are all one thing while the remake is separate. That’s not to say that the remake is totally different and that everything before it is irrelevant, but as we’ve seen already, there are differences. My approach is to assume everything in the OG’s continuity is true in the remake except when shown otherwise. So yes, there’s a version of AC that exists in the remake, but it’s an AC that occurred/will occur in the remake’s continuity, not the OG’s. Whether or not both versions of AC are identical in how they play out is besides the point, the events may be the same but their existences are still separated by the fact that the remake, plain and simply, is a remake of the OG.

 

[Roger]

It's not quite this either though. Everything about Cloud that happened *before* Remake "starts" happened as far as both the OG and Remake are concerned. Remake Cloud isn't a "brand new" Cloud. He's still got the same past as OG Cloud did. You just now have different events happening to the character once you get to the time of the OG.

In fact, it's that way for all of the cast. Anything the OG (and Compilation) goes into about their past can be safely assumed to have happened as far as Remake is concerned. It's not so much a "new take" on these characters, as it is... splitting timelines. They have the same "past" with a changed "present" from their OG selves.

Unless you're Aerith or Sephrioth... and then things get more mixed up because they seem to know something about how the other timeline turned out already. But that still don't change that their "past" was at one point the same as the past they had up until they got the knowledge of the other timeline.

Part 2 will add detail and change to the Nibelheim flashback respective of the OG, and all other flashbacks just like the Remake and the subsequent installments add detail and change to the present respective of the OG, I think that's safe to say.

 

[Fiz]

kind of like what I’m going to have to do next lol

Are you trying to say I don't explain myself clearly? ? lol

Nah you’re right about them saying it would close out the Compilation, the part that cannot be determined yet is the conclusion that you drew from it. I actually like how the FF wiki describes Cloud’s history for example. https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Cloud_Strife You may notice some overlap but the wiki makes a distinction between what’s in the original continuity and what’s in the remake’s. Just seems to me like a better way to examine what’s happening with the current info we have.

But this then treats Remake as its own thing that has no relationship to the original game and compilation. I don't think thats the case and I'm not sure where you draw that conclusion from.

For clarity’s sake then, wouldn’t it be best to just stop calling him AC Sephiroth already lol?

Honestly, I think this is splitting hairs. Referring to him as AC Sephiroth marks him as Sephiroth from at least that point in time rather than earlier. Until we have an official name, I think AC Sephiroth is convenient and easy enough to grasp. I'd also be inclined to call Aerith either AC Aerith or Guardian of the Planet Aerith for the same reasons.

But, "AC Sephiroth", "Future Sephiroth", "God Sephiroth"? - I think they all describe the same thing for wants of definitive terminology. Until the fanbase decides on official terms or SE give us official terms, then I think "AC" is the least controversial and what I see people tending to use for him. Unless you want a new term in which case, go for it and see if it sticks I guess.

I’m not against all this (actually a lot of it ties into what I think might be happening) but I wonder how Aerith’s death scene would play out if that’s true

There are so many possibilities, but I'm pretty certain that the Forgotten Capital will result in the mother of all hissyfits and speculation galore. I'm going to go around the houses a bit with this.

If this is the case, then what does Aeriths own mortality in Remake look like?
Will the lifestream sequence happen pre or post Forgotten Capital?
Where will Zack fit into all of this?
Is this something Sephiroth is going to even want to try to do? Or even potentially allow to happen?
Is this a time loop, multiple dimensions or time travel?
Even the possibility that Aerith is the MC of Remake (not something I'm predicting, but something I'm aware that there might be a possibility of)


Basically, all of these things are going to affect what actually goes down there and the things we will see. One of the big questions is whether this is involving time loops, time travel, multiverses or a mixture. If I were to take a guess I think a loop is the more likely but by no means guaranteed, and yeah I think we are in Madoka Magica caused by Back to the Future territory. There isn't anything conclusive for me to say this, but I think thats where this is going and I think people jumped to a conclusion about the Stamp thing which I shall return to in a moment.

Fixed.

Thanks... but... whats a "shitbird"? lol, sorry I don't get the joke. >.<

But also, that's funny because my wife (who doesn't already know FFVII's story) asked me at one point if Aerith is supposed to be a ghost and I was left momentarily speechless both because I'm wondering what she picked up on and because I don't know either.

Your wife is perceptive. I don't think she is literally a ghost though, I think Aerith is going to tread a grey area between the two.

Do you believe the Whispers exist simultaneously across all time (e.g. as with the Whisper dome being visible around both Beagle Stamp Midgar and Terrier Stamp Midgar), and thus could only ever be destroyed once?

I want to raise something about this and multiple timelines. I'll offer an alternate possibility. I'm not saying the people who think we have multiple timelines have gotten it all wrong, but more that people are jumping to a conclusion that might not be the case and that we could be dealing with a single timeline.

I think the whispers exist across all time and came to Midgar due to an existential event occurring between Sephiroth and the party in that moment, in the Singularity. I think thats accurate, 100%.

If we forget about Stamp for a moment (just, pretend like that wasn't a thing) and assume a single dimension with a single timeline. When we saw Zack the Whispers appeaed to ensure he dies as he is supposed to. But, they ditched him to go to Midgar in the present because Sephiroth and the group were about to challenge them in an existential way. This part I think is accurate. This left an opening for Zack to live, which he did. Not in an alternate timeline, but in our own past.

This didn't just affect Zack though, it affected other things too, like Biggs, and Stamp.

People have assumed the difference in Stamp means that this is a different timeline. But, it doesn't. Rather, that things have changed, the lack of Whispers have caused butterfly affects that have made little changes to the world. So, certain things could be slightly different. Certain locations might not exist, new ones might have appeared.

That in itself could have consequences on the locations, character backstories and such. The group themselves could now have very fractured memories because what they believe about their own pasts might not be true anymore. How much depends on how far they're willing to go with it.

 

[oty]

Remake is a "rabbit hol-er" kind of game in many ways. It reminds a lot of BotW in the sense that, the developers specifically put stuff into the game to make you confused and theorize, and they probably will never explain it all. BotW has many references to many elements of other Zelda games, so where it is located on the Zelda Timeline? Well, Aonuma answered himself. It's up to the player to decide that.

The visions that the gang received on the Arbiter battle. Are they actual proof that the Remake is a deviation of the same, original game? Or did they just put that to make you theorize that?

A bit off talk but, the Aonuma interview when he talks about Zelda's timeline is just........chef's kiss and I'm 100% sure it applies to the thought process of Nomura and company.

Here's a snippet:
Interviewer: Here's a last question that you have probably been asked a lot of times. So I'll ask another one instead. A lot of fans wonder where BoTW fits in the timeline. Do you think this timeline is all that important ? Or is it more for the fans ?

Aonuma : When we start to work on a new Zelda, we of course think about all this timeline stuff. Nintendo has a lot of IPs today. And Shigeru Miyamoto asks that we do our best to keep the timeline coherent. So we do it. But honestly, when we start to think of a new Zelda, respecting the timeline is a constraint for us. We would like to be free to imagine whatever we want without having to worry about the timeline. Being able to create while still keeping Zelda's essence, and bring new things to the table. Except now when we think of a new idea, we have to wonder "OK, but where does it fit in the timeline ?" and it instantly becomes very complicated ! And sometimes, we can't do these new ideas because it wouldn't fit in the timeline ! So, for the creative teams, it's an hindrance. Yeah, we published a timeline in a book but among our staff, we would like to be able to stop thinking about it... What's funny is to see the fans debate where BoTW fits in the timeline. But history has been written by historians that have been able to establish an order of events. Except no one is really sure everything happened in this exact order ! Anyways, when it comes to the Zelda timeline, I'm of the opinion that it's for the players to debate, and to imagine themselves the order of events !

The Remake is a bit different, given that, well, it is a Remake, but it's clear that it's because it is a Remake that they have all these elements flying around. Without the fact that FFVIIR is meant to be a retelling of story, they couldn't make a plot that uses that knowledge in the story itself! It's strange, but, at least imo, kinda cool. Their hindrance wasn't about having a timeline to follow, but rather a story itself to follow, and they obviously have their opinions about that. They definitely could have improved on the execution part, but it is a very brave take when talking about one of the most hyped remakes of all time.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Are you trying to say I don't explain myself clearly? ? lol

No, I’m saying I’M probably not making it clear enough so I’m sorry that I have to keep finding ways to explain it lmao

But this then treats Remake as its own thing that has no relationship to the original game and compilation. I don't think thats the case and I'm not sure where you draw that conclusion from.

Well, not really because the OG and remake still have a connection in the sense that everything that we know to be true in the OG/Compilation can also be presumed to be true in the remake until shown otherwise. It’s just that there are things that are also unique to both continuities ranging from small things like certain characters to big things like the Whispers or Zack being spared. Notice how Zack being alive doesn’t retcon the fact that he stayed dead in the OG, because all that stuff just doesn’t exist in the OG. So I don’t find it unreasonable to consider the two continuities as being separate even if they mostly resemble each other. Because at the end of the day, they are mostly similar, but there are differences by virtue of FF7R being a remake.

I’ll use the Honeybee Inn as an example. In the OG it’s a brothel that Cloud may or may not have been taken advantage of in but in the remake it’s a club where he had a dance-off with the owner. Not much thought required to understand that deviation, I think. In one story it’s one thing and in the remake of the story it’s something else. Is there some kind of in-universe temporal link between the two that causes one to be different than the other? I guess there could be, but I think it’s simpler to just accept that the OG is the OG and the remake is the remake and leave it at that.

Does that mean the rest of the Compilation is irrelevant to the Remake? No, but there will be deviations that occur simply because it’s a remake, not all of it’s because of the Whisper stuff. Like, why does Cloud have an apartment next to Tifa now where he didn’t in the OG? Because it’s a remake, that’s all. So I’m basically taking that approach and applying it to the bigger changes to the story as well.

Honestly, I think this is splitting hairs. Referring to him as AC Sephiroth marks him as Sephiroth from at least that point in time rather than earlier. Until we have an official name, I think AC Sephiroth is convenient and easy enough to grasp. I'd also be inclined to call Aerith either AC Aerith or Guardian of the Planet Aerith for the same reasons.

But, "AC Sephiroth", "Future Sephiroth", "God Sephiroth"? - I think they all describe the same thing for wants of definitive terminology. Until the fanbase decides on official terms or SE give us official terms, then I think "AC" is the least controversial and what I see people tending to use for him. Unless you want a new term in which case, go for it and see if it sticks I guess.

“Future Sephiroth” is what I think would be best, my problem with “AC Sephiroth” is actually the point you made here

Referring to him as AC Sephiroth marks him as Sephiroth from at least that point in time rather than earlier.

IF the Remake actually is connected to the OG in the way that people suggest in terms of the time loop stuff especially, then “AC Sephiroth” actually would be from earlier and not later because from his perspective, he would have already experienced AC. Chronologically, he’d be from the future, but to us, narratively, he wouldn’t be.

And so, we do not even currently know if we’re dealing with AC Sephiroth who went back in time or if it’s actually a Sephiroth from the present who is aware of the future. Functionally, the end result is largely the same and so I get why it can seem pedantic to make those distinctions. But in a story of this nature, those differences can have varying implications for how the story plays out.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Thanks... but... whats a "shitbird"? lol, sorry I don't get the joke. >.<

Referencing Reno's line in Chapter 12.

I want to raise something about this and multiple timelines. I'll offer an alternate possibility. I'm not saying the people who think we have multiple timelines have gotten it all wrong, but more that people are jumping to a conclusion that might not be the case and that we could be dealing with a single timeline.

I think the whispers exist across all time and came to Midgar due to an existential event occurring between Sephiroth and the party in that moment, in the Singularity. I think thats accurate, 100%.

If we forget about Stamp for a moment (just, pretend like that wasn't a thing) and assume a single dimension with a single timeline. When we saw Zack the Whispers appeaed to ensure he dies as he is supposed to. But, they ditched him to go to Midgar in the present because Sephiroth and the group were about to challenge them in an existential way. This part I think is accurate. This left an opening for Zack to live, which he did. Not in an alternate timeline, but in our own past.

This didn't just affect Zack though, it affected other things too, like Biggs, and Stamp.

People have assumed the difference in Stamp means that this is a different timeline. But, it doesn't. Rather, that things have changed, the lack of Whispers have caused butterfly affects that have made little changes to the world. So, certain things could be slightly different. Certain locations might not exist, new ones might have appeared.

That in itself could have consequences on the locations, character backstories and such. The group themselves could now have very fractured memories because what they believe about their own pasts might not be true anymore. How much depends on how far they're willing to go with it.

I remember that possibility being raised by a few people right after the game released, but I think it's been mostly abandoned because it quickly falls apart under just a little scrutiny. If everything the Whispers have directly interfered with has now been negated and "restored" to how it would have played out had their interference not occurred, Sector 7 wouldn't still be rubble.

Not to say that absolutely won't be the direction taken, but if the mechanics at work follow any consistent rules (which I would argue we should assume until established otherwise), then it can't work. My approach is always to take a deductive analysis -- i.e. establish what's occurred; what that would entail for a set of consistent rules; then extrapolate from there to draw more conclusions about other occurrences.

So I get from "the Whisper dome existed at both Zack's point in time and the present" and "Zack survived when the Whispers were destroyed" to "the Whispers exist simultaneously across all of time" to "CH18Seph can't be stuck in a personal time loop because the Whispers can only be destroyed once, ever."

Or:
"the Zack who survived is somewhere with a Terrier Stamp rather than a Beagle Stamp" and "all the Whispers' interferences haven't been negated since Sector 7 is still destroyed" > "Terrier Stamp can't be a result of the Whispers' interferences being negated" > "Terrier Stamp and Terrier Stamp Zack exist in a separate timeline from Beagle Stamp"

 

[oty]

I’ll use the Honeybee Inn as an example. In the OG it’s a brothel that Cloud may or may not have been taken advantage of in but in the remake it’s a club where he had a dance-off with the owner. Not much thought required to understand that deviation, I think. In one story it’s one thing and in the remake of the story it’s something else. Is there some kind of in-universe temporal link between the two that causes one to be different than the other? I guess there could be, but I think it’s simpler to just accept that the OG is the OG and the remake is the remake and leave it at that.

This is what I think confuses a lot of people, due to the way that the Remake story is in itself. Since there are clearly elements that reference an "original set of events", that, of course, are ever so similar to the set of events of the OG game itself, it gets so tricky when the Remake doesn't follow the OG but treats it as completely normal. Well it is, because it is it's own continuity, but it's all too tricky. It's very much meant to put old players on guard.

 

[KindOfBlue]

This is what I think confuses a lot of people, due to the way that the Remake story is in itself. Since there are clearly elements that reference an "original set of events", that, of course, are ever so similar to the set of events of the OG game itself, it gets so tricky when the Remake doesn't follow the OG but treats it as completely normal. Well it is, because it is it's own continuity, but it's all too tricky. It's very much meant to put old players on guard.

Exactly! See, something like Zack surviving is very clearly treated as abnormal and probably for the best. If the game just came out and said “nah, he’s actually been alive the whole time in this continuity” I feel like that would be a lot worse. But here, he’s also supposed to be dead.

But moving away from the Whisper stuff for a bit, there’s also things that are different just because. No reason given, no reason needed other than just because. Just because it’s a remake, that’s all. Of course, there’s only so much you can get away with by brushing it off with “just because”, and so the devs went the extra step and created an in-universe explanation as to why some things are different because now that expands the range of what kind of changes can be made. So I don’t think all of the differences are meant to have an explanation. Of course, the big ones are. But I think part of the experience is accepting that yes, this is a remake. As with any remake, some things are different just because.

If everything the Whispers have directly interfered with has now been negated and "restored" to how it would have played had their interference not occurred, Sector 7 wouldn't still be rubble.

Wouldn’t that only be the case if the only thing that caused Sector 7 to collapse was the Whispers? I would think there’s also a chance, even if unlikely, that the events would’ve still played out the same or at least similarly even if the Whispers didn’t interfere. Maybe without the Whispers, it would’ve played out exactly like the OG instead. Or maybe now that the Whispers are gone, the platefall still happened but played out even more differently than the OG, resulting in Biggs surviving and Jessie surviving because the furniture spells it out lmao.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

here’s my own crappy diagram lol I hope it makes what I’m saying more clear

My issue with all of this is... then why didn't they just completely reboot the entire FF7 franchise? Because that is what that is a diagram of. It's basically saying everything that happened before the OG doesn't matter because we'll be getting new versions of them anyway... so why even take them into consideration? You're implying that for all we know, Zack wasn't at the Nibelehim Reactor to ask Sephiroth the question that set Sephrioth off just *because* it's a Remake.

Which... granted, could be the case. It also causes the very... unfortunate... problem of... why not just then change the past all the way back when Sephrioth was born... or when Jenova first came to the Planet? If the Arbiters exist across all of time, well... they could be doing way more to get the Planet back on track with regards to Jenova and Sephrioth... like making sure one of them doesn't exist in the first place...

So... I'm kinda *choosing* to only commentate on what we know has changed in the past... which so far is Zack surviving. (Unless you think that's in it's own 'verse, in which case, him surviving doesn't even complicate things and can be safely ignored.) Everything else though? Nothing in Remake shows that what happened in BC or CC didn't happen. Just that CC was given the end a lot of people wanted it to get. To the contrary, all the world-building details double-down on BC and CC having happened.

If you want my diagram of how i understand it at the moment...
And yes, there's a "chicken or the egg" thing going on. I'm more than okay leaving that there until we find out how the heck Sephroith and Aerith got back to the time of Remake. We don't know *how* the time-travel happened yet... just that it did and a split occurred because of it. I'm definetly not going to be making a diagram that cares *too* much about the specifics of what happened until we actually find that out. It would be like making a time-travel Diagram of Back to the Future in the middle of Back to the Future II while Marty goes back to the past to get the Sports Almanac back...

Stuff like Wall Market I don't think "counts", because it's such a clear case of an actual "retcon". Vs "this wasn't how it went last time and so the Whispers are freaking out".

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm just filing stuff like a different Wall Market than the original into the same drawer as Terrier Stamp being different from Beagle Stamp -- if these are alternate timelines, of course some things are already different. Those things don't need any further explanation than that.
---

By the way, all: I'll probably move the posts with the timelines discussion to another thread soon so that this one can focus on its original topic again.

Wouldn’t that only be the case if the only thing that caused Sector 7 to collapse was the Whispers? I would think there’s also a chance, even if unlikely, that the events would’ve still played out the same or at least similarly even if the Whispers didn’t interfere. Maybe without the Whispers, it would’ve played out exactly like the OG instead. Or maybe now that the Whispers are gone, the platefall still happened but played out even more differently than the OG, resulting in Biggs surviving and Jessie surviving because the furniture spells it out lmao.

I ... guess so.

Really, we would have to start with the first thing we know the Whispers interfered with and go from there. That would either be injuring Jessie or making sure Cloud and Aerith met when he fell from the Sector 5 reactor.

Assuming we give a pass to Cloud and Aerith still becoming friends because they were in the singularity and that allowed their present to be unaffected by the Whispers' passing even when Cloud and Aerith's pasts were altered, that would still leave us to expect the present for others not in the singularity to be altered to align with the new past -- e.g. Marlene. However, Marlene is still at Elmyra's in the ending despite this being a state of things that is definitely a result of Cloud and Aerith meeting.

 

[oty]

My issue with all of this is... then why didn't they just completely reboot the entire FF7 franchise? Because that is what that is a diagram of. It's basically saying everything that happened before the OG doesn't matter because we'll be getting new versions of them anyway... so why even take them into consideration? You're implying that for all we know, Zack wasn't at the Nibelehim Reactor to ask Sephiroth the question that set Sephrioth off just *because* it's a Remake.

Which... granted, could be the case. It also causes the very... unfortunate... problem of... why not just then change the past all the way back when Sephrioth was born... or when Jenova first came to the Planet? If the Arbiters exist across all of time, well... they could be doing way more to get the Planet back on track with regards to Jenova and Sephrioth... like making sure one of them doesn't exist in the first place...

So... I'm kinda *choosing* to only commentate on what we know has changed in the past... which so far is Zack surviving. (Unless you think that's in it's own 'verse, in which case, him surviving doesn't even complicate things and can be safely ignored.) Everything else though? Nothing in Remake shows that what happened in BC or CC didn't happen. Just that CC was given the end a lot of people wanted it to get. To the contrary, all the world-building details double-down on BC and CC having happened.

If you want my diagram of how i understand it at the moment...View attachment 9452
And yes, there's a "chicken or the egg" thing going on. I'm more than okay leaving that there until we find out how the heck Sephroith and Aerith got back to the time of Remake. We don't know *how* the time-travel happened yet... just that it did and a split occurred because of it. I'm definetly not going to be making a diagram that cares *too* much about the specifics of what happened until we actually find that out. It would be like making a time-travel Diagram of Back to the Future in the middle of Back to the Future II while Marty goes back to the past to get the Sports Almanac back...

Stuff like Wall Market I don't think "counts", because it's such a clear case of an actual "retcon". Vs "this wasn't how it went last time and so the Whispers are freaking out".

Couldn't you argue that, in the end, both diagrams are actually just different interpretations of the same thing? For example, scenario A has the Remake having it's own set of original events being based on the OG, and scenario B has the Remake having it's own set of original events being actually from the OG itself. But the consequences are the same: there has been a deviation from the set of events, whichever the type of events they were.

The difference is all subjective. If you are an old player of the series, you will probably believe the OG itself exists in some kind of fashion in the Remake, but there is no confirmation of that. The devs did that just for us to think about that, to allude it. For the Remake, they can just refer to it as "the original events", but never outright affirming it's origins nor having the need to do that.

Considering what the devs said about treating the OG as "it's own thing" and that "it's still there to play", and that the Remake seems this grand project that gives us this more integrated version of the FF7 story with the rest of universe they created after the OG came out, it seems very possible that they put this "did the OG happen in Remake?" question in the game just to mindblow us. As such, the Remake does seem to be, at least, comparable to a Reboot of senses, except it majorly follows almost the same line of the OG with minor retcons (perhaps that's why it's not a reboot per se).

In fact, the word I would use would mostly be "a retelling", which is also the same word they have frequently used. It largely follows the original, but it uses the expanded universe they later created to give us a more integrated version of it. The meta portion of the game, where the question of how "much" the OG is in the Remake itself (as in, based upon or actually fully in it) is one of the many ways they found to screw our heads a bit and shake up our expectations, but never outright confirming it as a "sequel" of sorts, while also expressing a commentary of themselves.

Of course, at Part 2 they can just show Sephiroth outright using a Delorean to go back to the Nibelheim incident and all our theories will just be bazooka'd out of here, but I'm saying what if.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

@oty All of that I would agree with, because it's about the OG. The OG itself *happened* somehow as we see it happen... otherwise, we wouldn't get ACC and DoC and... it's fairly obvious that at least ACC happened given what Sephrioth is like. Anything past that gets... fuzzy... with what is going on. Again... this is like trying to figure out how time-travel in Back to the Future II works while in the middle of Back to the Future II without knowing how the ending will go. We simply don't know enough about a lot of stuff to say what the relationship between the OG and the Remake *really* is.

Although, Nomura's line about the title "Remake" not really being understood for a while yet kinda makes me think it's nothing so simple as just a "retelling" or "reboot"...

Where I have issues with KindOfBlue's diagram is how it treats the things that happen *before* the OG. As far as I can tell, nothing indicates what happened in the *past* of Remake changed from how we see it happening in the Compilation... except Zack dying at the end of CC. Which... almost feels like an exposition of what killing Harbringer means. You killed fate and now the most fated event in the Compilation (to the point it happened in the past) has now been "unfated". And the events of the OG are very much in limbo.

Now does that mean *everything else* in the past of Remake is up in the air? I don't know. Nothing says they couldn't be with our current understanding.

At the same time, it doesn't feel very "narrativly" satisfying either. The devs going "lol, you now don't know what happened in the past or what will happen in the future" doesn't make for... great speculation and/or hype. As someone who likes theorizing, you might as well just pack up and come back in two years so you can actually find out what is going on *at all* in that case. And... that's not Nojima, Kitase or Nomura's style in Remake either. They are trying as hard as they can to make all our knowledge of "the past" of the OG fit in with Remake. What happened in BC/CC (and now 1st SOLDIER) very much does matter for the world of Remake... which means what happened in those games also has to matter. That is, it more than likely really was what we saw in BC/CC.

 

[KindOfBlue]

My issue with all of this is... then why didn't they just completely reboot the entire FF7 franchise? Because that is what that is a diagram of. It's basically saying everything that happened before the OG doesn't matter because we'll be getting new versions of them anyway... so why even take them into consideration? You're implying that for all we know, Zack wasn't at the Nibelehim Reactor to ask Sephiroth the question that set Sephrioth off just *because* it's a Remake.

Well, yes and no...maybe “soft reboot” would work but I would say that the reason they didn’t reboot is because then they would have to explain everything. At least with the way things are, we don’t have to go through the steps of reestablishing everything because we can still presume that things are the same until they aren’t.

Let’s look at your example about Zack in the Nibelheim reactor. There’s no reason to assume that the incident played out differently UNTIL they show us that it did. So I would say as far as we know, Zack did still ask Sephiroth the question that set him off and we can presume that to be true unless they show us something else. Everything should be assumed to be the same unless otherwise noted.

On a similar note, you know how it canonically played out thanks to the Compilation? Lame ass Genesis got involved, that’s how. But what if this time, they completely drop Genesis from that part of the story? Would it need to be explained through timeline stuff? No, the explanation is because screw Genesis, that’s why. Unless if they choose to actually use the timelines to explain it in-universe, the default reason for it being different is because it’s a remake.

Which... granted, could be the case. It also causes the very... unfortunate... problem of... why not just then change the past all the way back when Sephrioth was born... or when Jenova first came to the Planet? If the Arbiters exist across all of time, well... they could be doing way more to get the Planet back on track with regards to Jenova and Sephrioth... like making sure one of them does exist in the first place...

Well, why didn’t the Weapons stop Shinra from ever being established in the first place? Obviously, Sephiroth and the meteor were a more immediate threat that caused them to awaken but you’d think they’d do something sooner about Shinra bleeding the planet dry even if slowly.

My point is that as with any story, it’s really up to the writers to come up with something that doesn’t have plot contrivances or conveniences but realistically, that’ll always happen. Hell, real life is like that. Why did X happen instead of Y? Because. Is it unsatisfying? Wholly. But generally if we’re entertained enough, we don’t think about these things, at least not initially.

(Unless you think that's in it's own 'verse, in which case, him surviving doesn't even complicate things and can be safely ignored.)

I have no friggin’ idea lol. I think that depends on where they go with the Beagle and Terrier stuff. I would say it can be ignored in terms of what it means for the OG because it literally doesn’t affect the OG at all, but how it affects the remake? To be determined...

If you want my diagram of how i understand it at the moment...

And yes, there's a "chicken or the egg" thing going on. I'm more than okay leaving that there until we find out how the heck Sephroith and Aerith got back to the time of Remake. We don't know *how* the time-travel happened yet... just that it did and a split occurred because of it. I'm definetly not going to be making a diagram that cares *too* much about the specifics of what happened until we actually find that out. It would be like making a time-travel Diagram of Back to the Future in the middle of Back to the Future II while Marty goes back to the past to get the Sports Almanac back...

I hope I’m reading yours right because I am awful with following diagrams, hence why mine is so simple lol. From what I can gather though, I would say the reason I lean more in the direction that I do is because of the changes to the OG that aren’t caused by the Whispers. And as for the ones that are, really, the difference between our interpretations is how they relate to the OG’s continuity.

In my interpretation, the Whispers are completely irrelevant to the OG/Compilation’s continuity. They just didn’t happen, and the two continuities don’t cross each other. But that doesn’t mean that the events of the OG/Compilation also didn’t happen in the remake’s continuity. So the original ending of Crisis Core is still what it was. What we’re seeing is a separate continuity that the remake exists in, in which the ending of Crisis Core used to be like the original, but now isn’t. That’s why I don’t consider Remake to be a retcon of Crisis Core, because Remake’s version of Crisis Core is still separate from Crisis Core itself even if the sequence of events is the same.

Stuff like Wall Market I don't think "counts", because it's such a clear case of an actual "retcon". Vs "this wasn't how it went last time and so the Whispers are freaking out".

I would say the way you use “retcon” actually wouldn’t apply because at no point does the game want us to retroactively accept that Wall Market in the OG was actually more like how it is in the remake the whole time. Wall Market in the OG is still what it always was, but in the remake it’s something else.

As far as I can tell, nothing indicates what happened in the *past* of Remake changed from how we see it happening in the Compilation... except Zack dying at the end of CC.

Like I said though, we still have to presume that the events of BC/CC are still the same until they aren’t. I never said they would be totally different, I’m saying they’re the same by default unless otherwise noted. So what this means in a nutshell is that none of the changes made to the past, present, and future of the remake will have any bearing on what happens in the OG/compilation’s continuity because ultimately, the past-present-future of the OG/compilation and the past-present-future of the remake do not exist to one another, even if the events are the same in many areas. This allows the OG to keep being the OG while the remake does whatever it wants to do, be it copy the OG precisely or do something different.

By the way, all: I'll probably move the posts with the timelines discussion to another thread soon so that this one can focus on its original topic again.

Probably for the best, sorry for derailing this thread so much lol

 

[Sephiroth Crescent]

I'll summarize what I think @KindOfBlue is trying to convey.

There's the Legacy Canon (FF7+Compilation)
and then there's the REMAKE Canon (which is obviously based on Legacy Canon, but may change whatever devs want to)
... of which, any or all changes are there just because it IS a remake.

PS: I would not be surprised if Nomura's secret meaning for REMAKE is actually something silly/random down the line.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

In my interpretation, the Whispers are completely irrelevant to the OG/Compilation’s continuity. They just didn’t happen, and the two continuities don’t cross each other. But that doesn’t mean that the events of the OG/Compilation also didn’t happen in the remake’s continuity.

This to me is a contradiction. The two continuities "not crossing each other" means neither of them care about what happened in the other continuity. The OG doesn't care about what happens in Remake's timeline; the Remake doesn't care about what happened in the OG's timeline. You have two different versions of BC and CC, one that happened for the OG and one that happened for the Remake. And so far, we only know what happened in the OG's version according to your diagram.

On a similar note, you know how it canonically played out thanks to the Compilation? Lame ass Genesis got involved, that’s how.

I'm completely fine with Genesis being at Nibelehim. He's not the reason Sephrioth went crazy in the OG. He's not the reason Sephrioth went crazy in Crisis Core. Both versions of events have the exact same scripts right up until Genesis shows up. And Sephrioth goes crazy in both of them... because Zack asked him if Sephrioth was a "normal" member of SOLDIER or not in both versions... which got Sephiroth to really thinking about what he was like... cue the Sephiroth meltdown. Genesis just doesn't *stop* the meltdown. Sephrioth even says what Genesis is saying *doesn't matter* to him. And then he goes off to beleive what is in the Nielehim Manor anyway. And ironicly... Genesis was the only one at Nibelehim with *accurate* information about what Jenova was... Anyone who says Genesis caused Sephrioth to go crazy really should take a look at the OG script of the Nibelehim incident and look at why Sephrioth goes crazy there.

Unless if they choose to actually use the timelines to explain it in-universe,

I would argue they already did this with the enemy info entries on Whispers Rubrum, Croceo and Viridi. It's hard to get better "proof" at this stage in the Remake series of games than...

An entity from a future timeline that has manifested in the present day. It fights with a sword/guns/barehanded to protect the future that gave shape to it.

Which says that there *is* a future timeline... that the Whisper came "back" from... and wants to make sure still happens so the Whisper can exist in the future. And the Ultimania makes it... very hard to deny that Rubrum is Kadaj, Croceo is Yazoo and Viridi is Loz. So... the "future timeline" being referred to in the Enemy Entry is ACC.

Like... yeah, it's not discussed yet by any of the characters. But neither is a whole lot of other stuff in the Ultimania either... and we're mostly sold on that stuff being true for Remake, rather than being speculative.

 

[Fiz]

No, I’m saying I’M probably not making it clear enough so I’m sorry that I have to keep finding ways to explain it lmao

Ah, I took it that way because I think I'm shite at explaining stuff anyway. I think it can be difficult, especially with time travel/multiverse stuff.

Well, not really because the OG and remake still have a connection in the sense that everything that we know to be true in the OG/Compilation can also be presumed to be true in the remake until shown otherwise. It’s just that there are things that are also unique to both continuities ranging from small things like certain characters to big things like the Whispers or Zack being spared. Notice how Zack being alive doesn’t retcon the fact that he stayed dead in the OG, because all that stuff just doesn’t exist in the OG. So I don’t find it unreasonable to consider the two continuities as being separate even if they mostly resemble each other. Because at the end of the day, they are mostly similar, but there are differences by virtue of FF7R being a remake.

I’ll use the Honeybee Inn as an example. In the OG it’s a brothel that Cloud may or may not have been taken advantage of in but in the remake it’s a club where he had a dance-off with the owner. Not much thought required to understand that deviation, I think. In one story it’s one thing and in the remake of the story it’s something else. Is there some kind of in-universe temporal link between the two that causes one to be different than the other? I guess there could be, but I think it’s simpler to just accept that the OG is the OG and the remake is the remake and leave it at that.

Okay, I get you. I think thats quite meta and probably doesn't apply as strictly as you're doing. Like, is every change an "in-universe" change, or are some changes "in-universe" while others are suspension of disbelief type changes (including retcons). I would assume a mixture of in-universe changes and suspension of disbelief changes.

What I mean by this is, the extra scenes with Biggs, Wedge and Jessie can easily be argued as "off camera events" from OG. So, they happened in OG but we never saw them. From the creators perspective, thats probably what they're doing with those.

Others like Honey Bee Inn I think are more suspension of disbelief changes, like retcons that exist because OG's Wall Market would go down like shit in 2020/21, so assume this is the same as OG but different because they know keeping it faithful would be problematic. I've never considered that an in-universe change from the original and I would imagine most people can suspend their disbelief with it.

Others are in universe changes, such as saving people from Plate Fall but there is an in-universe reason for it and the change doesn't break it as a sequel.

Does that mean the rest of the Compilation is irrelevant to the Remake? No, but there will be deviations that occur simply because it’s a remake, not all of it’s because of the Whisper stuff. Like, why does Cloud have an apartment next to Tifa now where he didn’t in the OG? Because it’s a remake, that’s all. So I’m basically taking that approach and applying it to the bigger changes to the story as well.

Yeah, I get it, I don't think I would apply this is a different continuity based on this though.

“Future Sephiroth” is what I think would be best, my problem with “AC Sephiroth” is actually the point you made here

IF the Remake actually is connected to the OG in the way that people suggest in terms of the time loop stuff especially, then “AC Sephiroth” actually would be from earlier and not later because from his perspective, he would have already experienced AC. Chronologically, he’d be from the future, but to us, narratively, he wouldn’t be.

And so, we do not even currently know if we’re dealing with AC Sephiroth who went back in time or if it’s actually a Sephiroth from the present who is aware of the future. Functionally, the end result is largely the same and so I get why it can seem pedantic to make those distinctions. But in a story of this nature, those differences can have varying implications for how the story plays out.

Okay, if people start using Future Sephiroth I shall use that too. I think its unlikely it won't be Sephiroth from the future though.

Referencing Reno's line in Chapter 12.

Oh, lol.

I remember that possibility being raised by a few people right after the game released, but I think it's been mostly abandoned because it quickly falls apart under just a little scrutiny. If everything the Whispers have directly interfered with has now been negated and "restored" to how it would have played out had their interference not occurred, Sector 7 wouldn't still be rubble.

I think this is questionable.

The whispers being gone does not guarantee that Cloud and Co will succeed at preventing Plate Fall. The Whispers exist to guarantee they fail, something that ceases to prevent you from doing something doesn't mean you are guaranteed to do it.

Using an analogy, if you're running a race you are tipped to win, if I cling to your back you are guaranteed to lose. If I stop clinging on to you, are you guaranteed to win? No, I'd have just been ensuring that you cannot. Me stopping just gives you the opportunity back again.

I'd also add that the Whispers are more reactive than proactive, also they can and have been subverted in Remake. A lot of people come at them as though they're a very rigid thing, they're not. They're a fluid force that react to latent change rather than foretell a change and stop that change occurring. Sometimes they even have to undo a change after it has happened. This indicates that they are predictive forces.

So no, I would still keep an open mind about whether this is one or multiple timelines.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I'll summarize what I think @KindOfBlue is trying to convey.

There's the Legacy Canon (FF7+Compilation)
and then there's the REMAKE Canon (which is obviously based on Legacy Canon, but may change whatever devs want to)
... of which, any or all changes are there just because it IS a remake.

PS: I would not be surprised if Nomura's secret meaning for REMAKE is actually something silly/random down the line.

Well...yeah, lmao.

This to me is a contradiction. The two continuities "not crossing each other" means neither of them care about what happened in the other continuity.

But them being independent from one another doesn’t mean they can’t still share the same events, it’s just that in one version (remake) the Whispers are causing time shenanegans and in the other (OG), they just don’t exist

I'm completely fine with Genesis being at Nibelehim. He's not the reason Sephrioth went crazy in the OG. He's not the reason Sephrioth went crazy in Crisis Core. Both versions of events have the exact same scripts right up until Genesis shows up. And Sephrioth goes crazy in both of them... because Zack asked him if Sephrioth was a "normal" member of SOLDIER or not in both versions... which got Sephiroth to really thinking about what he was like... cue the Sephiroth meltdown. Genesis just doesn't *stop* the meltdown. Sephrioth even says what Genesis is saying *doesn't matter* to him. And then he goes off to beleive what is in the Nielehim Manor anyway. And ironicly... Genesis was the only one at Nibelehim with *accurate* information about what Jenova was... Anyone who says Genesis caused Sephrioth to go crazy really should take a look at the OG script of the Nibelehim incident and look at why Sephrioth goes crazy there.

But I don’t like Genesis so screw him lol

I would argue they already did this with the enemy info entries on Whispers Rubrum, Croceo and Viridi. It's hard to get better "proof" at this stage in the Remake series of games than...

What I’m saying though means that it is the Kadaj, Loz, and Yazoo of the REMAKE’s continuity, not the OG’s...so they still exist in the future of the remake, and their fates were more than likely the same as the OG continuity but in the OG they never go back in time while in the remake they do

Okay, I get you. I think thats quite meta and probably doesn't apply as strictly as you're doing. Like, is every change an "in-universe" change, or are some changes "in-universe" while others are suspension of disbelief type changes (including retcons). I would assume a mixture of in-universe changes and suspension of disbelief changes.

What I mean by this is, the extra scenes with Biggs, Wedge and Jessie can easily be argued as "off camera events" from OG. So, they happened in OG but we never saw them. From the creators perspective, thats probably what they're doing with those.

Others like Honey Bee Inn I think are more suspension of disbelief changes, like retcons that exist because OG's Wall Market would go down like shit in 2020/21, so assume this is the same as OG but different because they know keeping it faithful would be problematic. I've never considered that an in-universe change from the original and I would imagine most people can suspend their disbelief with it.

Others are in universe changes, such as saving people from Plate Fall but there is an in-universe reason for it and the change doesn't break it as a sequel.

Depends on how it’s presented I think. For example,
there was never a point where the remake’s Honeybee Inn used to be a brothel and is now a club. It just always was one. But this change doesn’t then retroactively change the fact that the OG’s Honeybee Inn was and still is a brothel.

Yeah, I get it, I don't think I would apply this is a different continuity based on this though.

It’s really the culmination of everything that does it for me. I think the convenience of looking at the two games as separate continuities is now you don’t have to explain stuff like why Cloud spent so much time with Avalanche in the remake when he didn’t in the original by presuming that maybe it still happened in the OG but off screen. Instead it’s just because it never happened the OG.

Okay, if people start using Future Sephiroth I shall use that too. I think its unlikely it won't be Sephiroth from the future though.

I mean I agree that it’s probably Sephiroth from the future, it’s just which future and what that says about the relationship between the OG and the remake where I think the source of the discussion lies

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Okay, I'm stopping arguing about this.

It feels to me like you're adding an extra timeline just so that the OG's timeline doesn't have to be involved with Remake *at all*. Which to me feels like divorcing the Remake into a territory where there's nothing we actually can say for sure we know about what happened "before" the Remake happened in it's timeline.

Which means this is no longer fun for me to discuses.

See ya.

 

[Fiz]

Wouldn’t that only be the case if the only thing that caused Sector 7 to collapse was the Whispers? I would think there’s also a chance, even if unlikely, that the events would’ve still played out the same or at least similarly even if the Whispers didn’t interfere. Maybe without the Whispers, it would’ve played out exactly like the OG instead. Or maybe now that the Whispers are gone, the platefall still happened but played out even more differently than the OG, resulting in Biggs surviving and Jessie surviving because the furniture spells it out lmao.

I wish I'd read ahead in the thread because this is exactly what I think has happened.

 

[ultima786]

Wouldn’t that only be the case if the only thing that caused Sector 7 to collapse was the Whispers? I would think there’s also a chance, even if unlikely, that the events would’ve still played out the same or at least similarly even if the Whispers didn’t interfere. Maybe without the Whispers, it would’ve played out exactly like the OG instead. Or maybe now that the Whispers are gone, the platefall still happened but played out even more differently than the OG, resulting in Biggs surviving and Jessie surviving because the furniture spells it out lmao.

This is important. I think that many people think the Whispers are destiny with a capital D, meaning some unstoppable, causal reality that makes fate regardless and within our own will. The Whispers appear to be more like influencers, planetary WEAPONs that just do their best to course-correct what Gaia deems to be a better future, whether based on foresight, assessment, or whatever. In this regard, the Whispers aren't fundamentally different than any other creature trying to have it their way, except they are more profound and powerful and knowledgable.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Okay, I'm stopping arguing about this.

It feels to me like you're adding an extra timeline just so that the OG's timeline doesn't have to be involved with Remake *at all*. Which to me feels like divorcing the Remake into a territory where there's nothing we actually can say for sure we know about what happened "before" the Remake happened in it's timeline.

Which means this is no longer fun for me to discuses.

See ya.

I don’t know how many more times I need to say “we can still presume that the events of the OG continuity are the same in the remake except where shown otherwise” but alright I guess

I wish I'd read ahead in the thread because this is exactly what I think has happened.

I mean at this point I have no idea, I’m mildly confident in my assessment of the relationship between the OG and remake based on the current info but as far as what’s happening with the timelines within the remake...yeah, I got nothing

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I think that many people think the Whispers are destiny with a capital D, meaning some unstoppable, causal reality that makes fate regardless and within our own will.

Why would anyone think they're unstoppable since we ... stop them? =P