Sephiroth Was Never A Hero To Begin With

[jazzflower92]

I know that Sephiroth has been labeled a fallen hero in a lot of Final Fantasy spinoffs and the general consious.But when one looks closer then you might realize that Sephiroth wasn't really a hero but only had the image of one.You might make a case that Sephiroth was a decent person before he went evil but when he was with Shinra one could say he was just their poster boy to get people into the Wutai War.

I also got the notion from watching his cutscenses that he was actually more of a mix of Lawful Nuetral and True Neutral.I always felt that Sephiroth actually wasn't fighting for some greater good but because he was taking orders from the company that basically raised him since day one.Heck,even Elfie questions him about what he is really fighting for.

I think this also offers a better explanation for why he turned evil.Mainly because his image of a hero was all he was and there was hints he might have actually resented it.All his life was a lie including himself as some sorta of hero and casted it off when he went nuts.

In essence Sephiroth's title of a hero was just a shallow image that was only used to profit Shinra.

 

[PhantomSephiroth]

Since Square has yet to give Sephiroth a decent and detailed back story, we can't say for sure why he was labelled that way. To me, it seems to be more for scenaric romantism.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I thought it was Shin-Ra who is calling Sephiroth a hero and for them he would be; they would have had a lot more trouble winning the war in Wutai without him.

However, there's a big difference between calling someone a hero a being one and calling yourself a hero. Cloud is a hero, but he really doesn't consider himself to be one. "Who is a hero?" is a very subjective question.

 

[jazzflower92]

I still wonder why won't Square give out full details about Sephiroth's involvement in the Wutai War.I mean it would make an interesting addition to the Compliation on the other hand they could have the possiblity of screwing it up big time.

Why is it that Square puts out unneeded things in the Compliation while the important things left hanging in the original game are never expanded in the spinoffs?

On another note Sephiroth was at first created to make a man made cetra but was later made into a super soldier when he didn't gain any Cetra powers.It makes me think what happened if Sephiroth did gain some sorta of weird Cetra like powers instead of becoming a soldier.

 

[ForceStealer]

I don't think the "fallen hero" thing ever meant he was fallen from being a "hero," just that he was a celebrity, regarded as a war hero and fell from that.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

On another note Sephiroth was at first created to make a man made cetra but was later made into a super soldier when he didn't gain any Cetra powers.It makes me think what happened if Sephiroth did gain some sorta of weird Cetra like powers instead of becoming a soldier.

Hojo would have been very, very happy.

 

[jazzflower92]

Hojo would have been very, very happy.

Oh,right anything that makes Hojo happy is bound to be very bad.

That reminds me wasn't the Silver Elite made when Sephiroth was six years old and the fact that Hojo is implied to be the head of the fan club.I don't know about you but that kinda of makes Hojo into an even more creepy and sociopathic version of a stage dad.Why do I have a feeling that maybe Hojo was the one who started the whole hero image thing in the first place?

 

[Roger]

Oh,right anything that makes Hojo happy is bound to be very bad.

That reminds me wasn't the Silver Elite made when Sephiroth was six years old and the fact that Hojo is implied to be the head of the fan club.I don't know about you but that kinda of makes Hojo into an even more creepy and sociopathic version of a stage dad.Why do I have a feeling that maybe Hojo was the one who started the whole hero image thing in the first place?

really don't like the idea thaty Hojo cared that much about his son. Why would he even care about whether Sephiroth's rep was good?

 

[AvecAloes]

really don't like the idea thaty Hojo cared that much about his son. Why would he even care about whether Sephiroth's rep was good?

This.

Hojo. Didn't. Care. Thought we'd come to that conclusion several times over in several other threads.

 

[jazzflower92]

I think "care" would be the wrong word in this case.I think the more proper thing tosay would be interested in the progress of his greatest experiment.I sometimes forget Hojo never cared for Sephiroth as a person but only as a glorified speciman.

I was thinking that the hero label that Sephiroth was labeled with could actually fit the Ancient Greek concept of a hero.In Ancient Greek a hero was someone who has done many great feats and acts.However,they were very often not very moral people.Often times they could be called designated heroes.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Sephiroth does fit Aristotle's model of a "Tragic Hero" (I'm studying Oedipus Rex with my grade 11s right now) in some ways:

- he starts off as a person of high status; he is successful, admired, respected, and popular
- he loses his position in life through a "hamartia", a tragic flaw or mistake, for which he is not entirely responsible. In Sephiroth's case, Hojo has been playing god, and has mistaken Jenova for an Ancient. In this sense, Sephiroth is 'cursed' from the start.
- Sephiroth experiences "anagnoresis" - recognition - when he discovers that Jenova is his "mother", but it's not a true anagnoresis because he doesn't truly understand what she is or what role she plays in his life. It's a false anagnoresis, and as a result, it leads not to enlightenment but to insanity/s] the loss of his humanity.

Tragic heroes cannot be insane: they must be fully aware of their downfall, their loss, what caused it, and to what extent they are to blame. They must have a better understanding of reality at the end than they did at the beginning. Macbeth, for example, sees every step of the way that what he's doing is wrong, and gradually becomes more and more aware that by making his first mistake (trusting the witches, killing Duncan) he ias trapped in a downward spiral from which there's no turning back. The Tragic Hero has to be conscious of their own destruction. They must also suffer, and their suffering must exceed what their crimes deserve. Finally, they have to stay human. If they aren't human, we can't empathise with them. We can't really imagine ourselves in their shoes. So they must remain fully human, with everything in the way of flaws and virtues which that entails.

None of this is true of Sephiroth. Thus, instead of being a Tragic Hero, he becomes a mere cardboard villain - possibly even a puppet, controlled by a malign inhuman will.

Despite all of this, some people still find Sephiroth empathetic and feel pity for what happens to him. Whether his fate evokes a feeling of catharsis is up to the individual to decide, I guess.

[Edited for re-wording. It would take too long to argue about what 'insane' means. Maybe a better wording would have been 'completely irrational and divorced from reality'? Had a long discussion with the class today on whether anyone who commits murder is de facto insane. Class was pretty much split 50-50 on this question.]

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Yeah, Sephrioth is not a "Tragic Hero" in the traditional sense. What makes him different, for me anyway, is that while he does know what actually happened (absorbed the Lifestream), he doesn't care about it. It's like once he found out what happened, he doesn't want to stop being what he's become because he likes it. And given how much power he has, he could probably stop if he wanted to (get absorbed by the Lifestream?).

Most Tragic Heroes want to stop what their doing, but by the time they figure that out, there isn't anything they can do. Except maybe accept what's coming to them.

 

[jazzflower92]

I wonder if the people who wrote for Final Fantasy 7 were into Shakespeare because Sephiroth defiantly could be a good Shakespearean villain.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

No, he can't. He's two-dimensional.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Uh, no, he defiantly wouldn't be... at least, not as he's portrayed in the OG. As he's portrayed in CC though... maybe. Actually, Genesis and Angeal are the people who come closest to being Shakespeare villains which is probably why they don't fit the FFVII world that well. Shakespeare villains have many different reasons for being villains; Sephrioth doesn't.

Edit: ninja'd

 

[jazzflower92]

No, he can't. He's two-dimensional.

What do you mean by two dimensional?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

It's a literary term. A two-dimensional character has one main reason why they're doing what they're doing and that's about it. They're "flat". A lot of the time they have generalized back-stories with few specifics. There usually isn't a lot of controversy over their motives as their motive is already known.

A three-dimensional character has lots of reason why they do what they do. They have lots of "layers". A lot of the time they have specific back-stories. There is often a lot of controversy over their motives as their motives vary.

 

[jazzflower92]

It's a literary term. A two-dimensional character has one main reason why they're doing what they're doing and that's about it. They're "flat". A lot of the time they have generalized back-stories with few specifics. There usually isn't a lot of controversy over their motives as their motive is already known.

A three-dimensional character has lots of reason why they do what they do. They have lots of "layers". A lot of the time they have specific back-stories. There is often a lot of controversy over their motives as their motives vary.

So,whats the difference between one dimenstional and two dimenstional characters.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^There's no such term...

 

[jazzflower92]

^^There's no such term...

Okay,so you see Sephiroth as a flat character.What makes him feel flat to you?

 

[Roger]

Eh, even in the original game there's more then one motivation behind Sephiroth. He obviously sees Jenova as his mother becase he lacked a motherfigure, he killed Pres Shinra because he wanted to get back at him for being the head of the Shinra corporation that destroyed his life, he thinks he's an Ancient cause he wants to be special, he's got a godcomplex, he uses Cloud the way he does because he both wants revenge (this is also why he keeps taunting him) and because Cloud's genuinely the best material for the job, he attributes his creation to Professor Gast because he A. admires the man and B. despises Hojo.

Sephiroth says Hojo is a walking mass of complexes I'd say that applies better to him. Hojo's fairly straighforward. He's crazy and does everything for science.

 

[jazzflower92]

Eh, even in the original game there's more then one motivation behind Sephiroth. He obviously sees Jenova as his mother becase he lacked a motherfigure, he killed Pres Shinra because he wanted to get back at him for being the head of the Shinra corporation that destroyed his life, he thinks he's an Ancient cause he wants to be special, he's got a godcomplex, he uses Cloud the way he does because he both wants revenge (this is also why he keeps taunting him) and because Cloud's genuinely the best material for the job, he attributes his creation to Professor Gast because he A. admires the man and B. despises Hojo.

Sephiroth says Hojo is a walking mass of complexes I'd say that applies better to him. Hojo's fairly straighforward. He's crazy and does everything for science.

And I still wonder where all the therapists are in Final Fantasy 7 because everyone seems to be a walking cry for mental help.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

There Are No Therapists Um... given that Shin-Ra was originally a weapons manufacturer I don't find this that surprising. They're more used to dealing with weapons, not people. So long as nobody really does anything crazy... they're not going to have a problem with it.

 

[PhantomSephiroth]

Sephiroth does seem ''flat'', but than again, as I mentioned, we never were revealed much. A lot of people critisize his lack of or week motivation, but that's misunderstanding the intention behind the character. You may aswell critisize Frankenstein's monster week motivations.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think people are taking his label as "hero" too literally here.

He was a manufactured super SOLDIER, who was popular, legendary, and extremely powerful. He was the go to SOLDIER who handled crises and was instrumental in ending the war with Wutai.

That's enough to earn the superficial label of "hero." He was looked up to by the masses and seen as a celebrity. That's all. He's not a "hero" in the true sense of the word, which is apparently what the OP is trying to say.

And at the time, Sephiroth had about as much/little dimension as any other video game villain of his day. Let's remember this is the same guy from a game over 10 years ago. At the time, he was pretty good. Maybe not the most fleshed out during his whole story (like say Kefka in FFVI) But from what we saw of Zack's flashback, Cloud's flashback and learned in game in FFVII proper, he was a hero and a well liked SOLDIER who then he went mad when he learned his origin. His mother fixation and desire to torment Cloud was pretty sick. Not to mention his memorable murder of Aerith. We see that about him and learn that either through interaction with him, or his copies/Jenova. Do keep in mind Jenova was the puppet for Sephiroth and not the other way around, and while Jenova may have been mimicing him, he was still controlling it and making it do/say what he wanted to.

In terms of origin, it may not have been thoroughly explained but when you're a freaking test tube experiment put inside the belly of a high strung, unstable scientist living in an old mansion with a Turk and a quack....there's really not much else to say, is there?