Sephiroth Was Never A Hero To Begin With

[Roger]

He did slay that Dragon that was terrorising Nibelheim. If that's the kind of stuff he was what he was doing post-Wutai then you say he was a hero. And without him the Wutai war would've probably dragged out a lot longer. Wutai still wouldn't have a prayer of winning, mind you, the war would have just lasted a lot longer.

 

[ForceStealer]

Alsoo, being "two-dimensional" villain doesn't mean you're a bad villain, it just mean's you're not a three-dimensional one. A villain could be as deep and multifaceted a character as they come and could still be a crappy villain. Likewise the Joker is a revered villain with no dimension at all. It just depends on the story around them.

 

[PhantomSephiroth]

He did slay that Dragon that was terrorising Nibelheim. If that's the kind of stuff he was what he was doing post-Wutai then you say he was a hero. And without him the Wutai war would've probably dragged out a lot longer. Wutai still wouldn't have a prayer of winning, mind you, the war would have just lasted a lot longer.

I just remembered, he stop the sister Ray from firing on Midgar when it was Hijacked by Avanlanche.

 

[jazzflower92]

I just remembered, he stop the sister Ray from firing on Midgar when it was Hijacked by Avanlanche.

On the other hand one could say he was only doing those sort of deeds because he was ordered to.Before his fall into insanity he just seems nuetral in character moral alignment.He might have done some great feats but the reason he did those was probably because he was just taking orders to do so.

 

[SirVival]

This.

Hojo. Didn't. Care. Thought we'd come to that conclusion several times over in several other threads.

Hojo loved his son. Just play the OG

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

All, right, someone earlier in this thread said Hojo didn't care about Sephiroth, and I'm going to have to disagree. Hojo did care about Sephiroth. He started a fanclub for Sephiroth, and during the Meteor Crisis he chose to side with Sephy instead of Shinra. Not to mention he seems to regard Sephiroth as his greatest experiment. The only thing that one could possibly argue is whether or not he only cared about Seph as an experiment, or if he cared about him as a son as well. Either way though, Hojo's still a crazy asshole.

 

[PhantomSephiroth]

Hojo loved his son. Just play the OG

In his own twisted way I guess....

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^There's a lot of evidence that Hojo wants to see Sephiroth, his experiment succeed rather then Sephiroth, his son succeed.

On the other hand one could say he was only doing those sort of deeds because he was ordered to.Before his fall into insanity he just seems nuetral in character moral alignment.He might have done some great feats but the reason he did those was probably because he was just taking orders to do so.

This statement makes anything anyone does because they're ordered to do worth nothing. I mean, if a superior tells you to do something heroic and you go do it, it still makes you heroic because you were the one who actually did it.

Sephrioth never tells us why he obeys Shin-Ra in the OG, and in CC, he dumps chasing down Angeal and Genesis onto Zack so he doesn't have to. So he isn't just a robot...

 

[ForceStealer]

The experiment that made Sephiroth was a failure from the outset. It didn't create anyone with the abilities of the Cetra - namely, locating the promised land. Now the superhuman side effect it created wasn't really a problem by Hojo, but still.

during the Meteor Crisis he chose to side with Sephy instead of Shinra.

Yeah, when it was clear that Shinra was going under and Sephiroth was looking like the victor. He didn't do anything to assist Sephiroth before that.

Hojo is motivated purely by what he can pull off and how much it allows him to prove his own genious. Sephiroth meant nothing to him until he became tied up in his Jenova Reunion Theory. Then he wanted to see what Sephiroth could do with all the power he had amassed, as Shinra clearly would no longer have the resources to support him

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Eh, even in the original game there's more then one motivation behind Sephiroth. He obviously sees Jenova as his mother becase he lacked a motherfigure, he killed Pres Shinra because he wanted to get back at him for being the head of the Shinra corporation that destroyed his life, he thinks he's an Ancient cause he wants to be special, he's got a godcomplex, he uses Cloud the way he does because he both wants revenge (this is also why he keeps taunting him) and because Cloud's genuinely the best material for the job, he attributes his creation to Professor Gast because he A. admires the man and B. despises Hojo.

Sephiroth says Hojo is a walking mass of complexes I'd say that applies better to him. Hojo's fairly straighforward. He's crazy and does everything for science.

Sephiroth still seems pretty straightforward to me, at least post-Nibelheim. Prior to that is the only time he was interesting. That the "manliest" man in the world (yeah, I see the irony in calling the poster boy for bishounen that) would go so batshit over the very idea of his mother had some interesting potential if more had been done with that.

But he's not insane after Nibelheim. He's completely aware of the truth about everything. He knows he's not an Ancient, but still sees himself as special -- superior to the Cetra, he even says. His only motivation at this point is pride.

It's the same motivation that leads him to want revenge on Cloud. That's all there was to him after Nibelheim. He thought he was better than everyone and deserved to rule them. That is his only motivation: hubris.

 

[jazzflower92]

The experiment that made Sephiroth was a failure from the outset. It didn't create anyone with the abilities of the Cetra - namely, locating the promised land. Now the superhuman side effect it created wasn't really a problem by Hojo, but still.



Yeah, when it was clear that Shinra was going under and Sephiroth was looking like the victor. He didn't do anything to assist Sephiroth before that.

Hojo is motivated purely by what he can pull off and how much it allows him to prove his own genious. Sephiroth meant nothing to him until he became tied up in his Jenova Reunion Theory. Then he wanted to see what Sephiroth could do with all the power he had amassed, as Shinra clearly would no longer have the resources to support him

Yeah,Hojo always seems to be interested in the side that will benefit him the most.I mean the guy once considered letting himself get kidnapped by the original version of ADVALANCHE so he could join them.

 

[Unlucky]

But he's not insane after Nibelheim. He's completely aware of the truth about everything. He knows he's not an Ancient, but still sees himself as special -- superior to the Cetra, he even says. His only motivation at this point is pride.

It's the same motivation that leads him to want revenge on Cloud. That's all there was to him after Nibelheim. He thought he was better than everyone and deserved to rule them. That is his only motivation: hubris.

Yeah, this pretty much sums up what kind of villain Sephiroth is. He does things because he can. He's no Cetra, so what. Fuck whatever people think because he knows he's better than everyone else. You can just imagine his hatred of Cloud because he bested him thrice now.

He's not the most perfectly fleshed-out character, but I do think though, that that's the appeal of him as a villain. I find it perfectly believable for somebody who knows that they can surely pull it off to give in to that kind of power. And it makes the deaths of all those he killed more infuriating and tragic-- they died not because this man had a cause, but because he is full of hubris.

That's also why I find Crisis Core's attempt to try and give him some 'background' unnecessary and lame. The whole "I knew I was different" thing was enough to explain that there's this major insecurity festering inside him, the very same thing he turned into something he can feel good about later on. But now I'm to believe that he was friends with similar (sort of) projects? Lol NO.

 

[jazzflower92]

Yeah, this pretty much sums up what kind of villain Sephiroth is. He does things because he can. He's no Cetra, so what. Fuck whatever people think because he knows he's better than everyone else. You can just imagine his hatred of Cloud because he bested him thrice now.

He's not the most perfectly fleshed-out character, but I do think though, that that's the appeal of him as a villain. I find it perfectly believable for somebody who knows that they can surely pull it off to give in to that kind of power. And it makes the deaths of all those he killed more infuriating and tragic-- they died not because this man had a cause, but because he is full of hubris.

That's also why I find Crisis Core's attempt to try and give him some 'background' unnecessary and lame. The whole "I knew I was different" thing was enough to explain that there's this major insecurity festering inside him, the very same thing he turned into something he can feel good about later on. But now I'm to believe that he was friends with similar (sort of) projects? Lol NO.

I kinda of disagree because I always wanted some past background about him but I think Crisis Core was wasted potential.I would have prefered if they just had Angeal and focus on him.I also think you know who should have been omitted and it could have been about Angeal rebelling against Shinra because he eventually comes to realize how corrupt they were.

 

[Unlucky]

It's not that I don't want Sephiroth to have any kind of background. What I'm trying to say is that this attempt to give Sephiroth a 'deeper' character in CC is all unnecessary (and is absolute shit).

My impression of him in the OG is that it's a constant fact that he believes himself to be superior. But he's torn between liking this special status (hence the arrogance) or hating it (the insecurity). In the end we know what he chose, and everything else that he's done-- killing the puny humans, messing with Cloud's head, trying to destroy the world-- revolves around the same thing: he thinks he's god and believes himself to be right.

 

[jazzflower92]

I see Sephiroth actually having a inferiotity superiority complex pre-Nebelheim.He is actually full of outward perfection but on the inside he does have hidden insecurities that he often keeps to himself and really doesn't know how to relate to others.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

Anyone else notice how common it is for FF villains to have huge egos? I mean there's Garland, The Emperor, Kefka, Sephiroth, Kuja, etc.

 

[jazzflower92]

Anyone else notice how common it is for FF villains to have huge egos? I mean there's Garland, The Emperor, Kefka, Sephiroth, Kuja, etc.

Quick someone needs to quote Freud fast.

 

[ForceStealer]

You pretty much have to have a huge ego to be a genocidal villain. Even if you're "insecure," you still have to have a huge ego to think your insecurity is worth the horror you've wrought.

 

[Octo]

I'm racking my brain to think of a villian in anything ever that didn't have a huge ego. Can't think of anybody....unless you count snivelling sidekick types, like uh....Muttley?

 

[PhantomSephiroth]

It's not that I don't want Sephiroth to have any kind of background. What I'm trying to say is that this attempt to give Sephiroth a 'deeper' character in CC is all unnecessary (and is absolute shit).

True. Sephiroth always felt more like an element, a symbolic, rather than a character. That said, they did fairly show his more human side in CC.

 

[jazzflower92]

True. Sephiroth always felt more like an element, a symbolic, rather than a character. That said, they did fairly show his more human side in CC.

Well,the creators themselves said they wanted Sephiroth be a force that had to be delt with.

 

[PhantomSephiroth]

Well,the creators themselves said they wanted Sephiroth be a force that had to be delt with.

What bothers me that they never actually sowed how much power, exactly, he has.

 

[jazzflower92]

What bothers me that they never actually sowed how much power, exactly, he has.

They even said that he wasn't even using all of his power.That is kinda of terrifying if you think about it.The group already had trouble dealing with him in the game it would be frightening to have to fight him at full power.

 

[PhantomSephiroth]

Makes you wonder why he never fought at full power. Maybe he actually wanred to be defeated.

 

[jazzflower92]

Makes you wonder why he never fought at full power. Maybe he actually wanred to be defeated.

Maybe its because if he was defeated then he would become even more powerful.