Sephiroth: What the fuck happened?

[Masamune]

@Mako -
I never said Sephiroth should have the same cultural identity that Magneto has. I was making the point that context and substance is the backbone of his misanthropy. That was written by Chris Claremont. One guy. Now if Sephiroth could have similar context to explain his resentment of mankind, he would be a far more convincing menace.

An RPG has as much depth to develop characters as possible. It's happened throughout the series, so I don't understand why suddenly you're arguing that Sephiroth is short-changed through medium. Kefka, Kuja, Seymour, Vayne. They're all more effective, credible villains than Sephiroth, and they're not particularly outstanding either.

Sephiroth's hateful stupor in Nibelheim was caused by the revelation of his origin and the side-effect of Jenova. I'm not sure Sephiroth really had an idea of WHAT he was going to do, it was all such a mess. He finds clarity in the Lifestream, which results in his quest to destroy the world and become 'god'. It's all very predictable and one-dimensional.

All good villains need coherence, even if they're just blindly evil. For me, Sephiroth was never a compelling villain, and I cannot understand why he is so popular aside from his exterior.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Wow, so you're saying Kuja, a manufactured Genome who's evil just because he's a spoiled Genome with an inferiority complex has more credibility in his evil than Sephiroth? That's a bit hypocritical. He just hates Zidane for being better than him, and that means more than Sephiroth's own internal hatred of mankind and superiority complex? And Kefka too? He's evil "just because" and due to him being utterly insane. You're not making any sense. All Kuja wanted to do was rule the planet as well for the exact same reason as Sephiroth. Because he felt superior to all life and wanted it all.

Sephiroth intended to go to the Promised Land when he learned the truth. That was his intent; to take back the planet in Jenova's name. He intended to rule the planet and destroy mankind. What's so hard to understand about that? You're calling Sephiroth's quest for godhood one dimension but calling Kefka's desire to just destroy everything much more credible and defined? Huh?

I don't understand how everyone can understand Sephiroth's established cause for villainy and evil but you.

 

[Masamune]

Kuja is essentially an over powered child, born to incite death and destruction. He's similar to Tetsuo from Akira, in a sense, because he has more power than he can handle and suffers from an inferiority complex. But the tragedy of it all is that he discovers his power is finite, and that he's no different than the Black Mages he manipulated.

Kefka is an example of what I was talking about earlier: pure evil. We're not supposed to care who manipulated him or how screwed up his past was. Kefka also had a lot more personality than what Sephiroth had.

I don't understand how everyone can understand Sephiroth's established cause for villainy and evil but you.

Generalization much?

 

[Makoeyes987]

So again, Sephiroth finally being fed up with being a manufactured corporate tool, when he feels he has so much more potential and superiority to the rest of the human race, is less validated as an excuse to be evil, than Kuja, who is fed up being a manufactured genome tool, when he feels he has so much more potential and superiority than the rest of the races of Gaia? FFS, they're evil for the exact same reasons, despite their different backgrounds.

Saying Kuja's reasons for turning evil are better justified than Sephiroth's is bullocks, cause they're the same reason. The only difference with Sephiroth is he's not a spoiled child who ends up fearing death and tries to destroy it all. Sephiroth's tragedy is that he never knew the truth and it led to his fall from heroic grace.

Kefka has more personality because he was made to be personalized. Sephiroth is looming dread, a more intangible force in FFVII. He's personified by doom and as a threat hanging over the planet. You only see him when you finally confront him two times in the game. They are not in the same context. He'd be more akin to Ultimecia really.

 

[Tetsujin]

@BWAngel]
You forget that what is required for Omega to even invoke itself is the Protomateria. Which the planet sealed away in Chaos. With that concentrated mako, they were going to toss in the Protomateria which would summon Omega and thus it'd all begin. It couldn't have even happened in FFVII because the Protomateria was in Chaos.

The protomateria actually has nothing to do with Omega. It is merely a means to control Chaos. Hojo wanted to use it to be able to control Omega with that though.
It is not needed to summon Omega at all.

 

[Sephiroth]

So that was one of Hojo's goal to control Omega with the Protomateria? Was that part of his experiment?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I don't have too much to say in this particular debate, but when it comes to RPG villains, in terms of being better or effective/depth whatnot, Sephiroth isn't very high in my opinion.

 

[Max Payne]

I think Sephiroth's transition from hero to villain just doesn't seem very well developed to most people.

I've never been particularly stricken by any aspect of his design or story tbh.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The protomateria actually has nothing to do with Omega. It is merely a means to control Chaos. Hojo wanted to use it to be able to control Omega with that though.
It is not needed to summon Omega at all.

Yeah it is. Omega is only invoked once the protomateria is torn away from Chaos, and returned to the lifestream. That's why when the Protomateria that was inside Weiss joined the concentrated pool of Lifestream, Omega was finally invoked.

 

[Tetsujin]

Yeah it is. Omega is only invoked once the protomateria is torn away from Chaos, and returned to the lifestream. That's why when the Protomateria that was inside Weiss joined the concentrated pool of Lifestream, Omega was finally invoked.

....well, that's because there was no one there anymore to use the materia to control it, wasn't it?
Omega partially manifested even before that, when Cait Sith infiltrated DG. And Weiss sucked up part of Omega's energy to join with it. He could control it with the protomateria, but Vincent defeated him etc.
After that, Nero and Weiss joined Omega and vanished into the mako pool. He gave up control then, basically. The protomateria wasn't part of him anymore. So it would make more sense that Omega appeared in its true form then because no one was holding it back with the protomateria anymore, amirite?

Nothing in DC ever states that the protomateria is used to actually summon Omega. That is not true at all.

 

[Masamune]

Kuja was already in the position of thinking he was IT. That's where the plot twist comes in, because he's not. He's actually inferior to Zidane, and nothing but a tool. They're a lot more different than you think.

Sephiroth didn't have a problem with Shinra until he went to Nibelheim, made a bunch of assumptions and went ax-crazy. Then after that, we're supposed to accept that it's perfectly rational he would want to blow up the planet and become a deformed one-wing god.

Kefka has more personality because he was made to be personalized.

Circular logic, that.

Sephiroth is looming dread, a more intangible force in FFVII. He's personified by doom and as a threat hanging over the planet. You only see him when you finally confront him two times in the game. They are not in the same context. He'd be more akin to Ultimecia really.

You chase him throughout most of the game (albeit Jenova's body). There's little interaction with Sephiroth as a character. We don't see much of Vayne in FFXII, but what we do see affirms a character of assurance and charisma who succeeds even in defeat. That's character. Not some one-dimensional villain who wants to rule the world:

 

[Makoeyes987]

Eh, I guess that makes sense.

@Masamune

Sephiroth had lots of problems with Shinra. He was already feeling doubt about being used and harboring intent on splitting with the company. So that's not true at all. He wasn't happy at Shinra. Not only that, but he felt different and not as 'human' as everyone else. He wasn't all hunky dory. You're completely ignoring the dialogue or the presentation of Sephiroth while in Shinra in BC and CC.

Again, I said that despite their backgrounds, they still were trying to conquer the planet for the same reason. Out of a sense of superiority and entitlement. You can't say that they weren't because they both explicitly say so. Outside of their unique origins and backstory, their overall reasoning for being evil is the same. Entitlement and superiority.

And it's not circular logic, it's the way he was characterized. He has more personality because the creators made him so. He wasn't just a removed threat that you had to chase and pursue. Kefka was chasing YOU. Not only that, but he wasn't really all that strong until the game progressed. Already, Sephiroth was way beyond you in terms of power. Sephiroth is an entirely different type of villain in terms of context. It'd be like comparing Ultimecia to Vayne.

Sephiroth isn't seen much as a character because they make him a looming threat to the planet, rather than a character. Its just the way they did it.

 

[ForceStealer]

Ultimecia isn't exactly the the pillar of well-written villainy, but I understand the point. It's not like Sephiroth is the way he is because the writers are retards, he's exactly as they intended him. "Predictability" doesn't necessarily mean he was poorly written, not every villain is supposed to surprise you. As Mako said, he's designed to be looming doom. That's not original and nor is the hero fallen from grace (Lucifer, anyone?).

And besides, since when are the popular characters the best-written?

 

[Masamune]

If characters are predictable and clichéd then, yes, they are poorly written.

Sephiroth lacks character and intention. Kuja had too much power, and when Garland took the toys away he realized he was a disposable object himself. Seymour wanted to become Sin to finish Spira's cycle of despair. Vayne fought to reclaim Man's destiny from the Gods. In the context of their stories, they're all pretty coherent. With Sephiroth, his backstory always felt like an afterthought, so long as he became a superboss who wanted to destroy everyone.

 

[ForceStealer]

How are Sephiroth's motives not coherent? Kuja's motives were out of fear, Vayne and Seymour both had misguided good intentions. Sephiroth, when he learned pretty much everything about everything in the Lifestream, saw a relatively easy way to become a god. Being genuinely evil by that point, and fully aware that he was the strongest being around, he decided to do it. Not to mention his plan also kept him alive where he should have died.

I know you know all of this, I'm not trying to patronize you, I'm just saying that it makes as much sense as the others, he's just more distinctly evil than your other three examples. Power for power's sake. He did think the world was screwed up and also thought he could make a better one, but he really just wanted to be a god, I think. Otherwise he wouldn't be so giddy about the whole plan when he reveals it in the Temple of the Ancients

 

[megas_sephiroth]

The problem with Sephiroth is not the before or the after, it's the turning point that is rather shaky. He seemed like a nice guy in CC, not very balanced, but not a maniac either. He actually decides to leave ShinRa. Then he goes to Nibelheim, finds out about his past and goes crazy. Why? He seemed like a rather smart person, why did he turn against the planet instead of turning against those who truly wronged him? Even Genesis and Angeal had it far worse that him (they were gonna die) and didn't go on a crazed quest to become a god...

 

[Aya]

Sephiroth did seem a nice person in CC. Angeal and Genesis had it worse than Sephiroth???? He had been brought up by the maniac Hojo, was used by ShinRa, had no REAL friends and no family and was really powerful and had nobody he could turn too.
And his two friends decided too turn on him and we can tell that he did not like being a hero or all the fame. Plus it was Genesis fault for him turning mad.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Plus it was Genesis fault for him turning mad.

It's always up to choice. Always. It's never anyone's 'fault' for someone turning evil and wanting to kill anyone.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

@Aya

I was talking about the specific turning point. Angeal and Genesis were rotting alive.

Sephiroth had friends, Angeal was his friend and so was Zack, to a point.

And while I agree that Genesis should have kept his big mouth shut, it wasn't entirely on him that Sephiroth went crazy, if at all.

@Notorious MOG

It's the exact thing I'm talking about: the choice.

 

[Aya]

That is true The Notorious M.O.G. but I do not think he helped the situation at all. He had se everything up if it wern't for him Sephiroth wouldn't of been sent on that mission.

And forgive me I tend to waffle on lol but can you really class Angeal and Genesis as friends? They did not seem too care what they was doing too him especially Genesis. Zack granted was a friend.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

How was Angeal at least not his friend? Hell, all of them were friends, it was only during CC where their friendship starts to crack, but they've been friends for years up to that point.

 

[Aya]

Yeah maybe so but his loyalty and friendship too Sephiroth only stretched so far. His friendship too Genesis ment much more. Futhermore why I said they wern't REAL friends is because could you do that too your best friends?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Wait, can you rephrase that? Particularly the parts where you mix up 'to' and 'too'.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

How was Angeal at least not his friend? Hell, all of them were friends, it was only during CC where their friendship starts to crack, but they've been friends for years up to that point.

Angeal was Sephiroth's friend, that's for sure, but during the game, Sephiroth gives indication that he may have felt a bit left out at points. Genesis may have been his friend at first, since he kind of worshipped Sephiroth, wanting to become like him.

@Aya

I don't believe a person like Angeal, who was all about honor and dreams would abandon a friend for another, I believe he left ShinRa because he felt like a monster, no honor and no dreams...

 

[Aya]

Yeah that is what I mean, Angeal would always pick Genesis other Sephiroth. His loyalty to Sephiroth only stretched so far. And sorry that you did not understand my English MR NOTORIOUS M.O.G as English is not my first language.

What I was saying was a true friend would not do that. What they put Sephiroth through. Can you imagaine doing that to you best friends? Or having it done to you?