Sephiroth: What the fuck happened?

[Ⓐaron]

At that time in the story, Sephiroth *does* harbor that much hate and hostility towards everyone, as he found out the truth that he wasn't human. Again, it wasn't JUST Jenova. He made a choice to act out. Jenova didn't MAKE him do anything. Because another person of the Jenova Project who found out the same thing didn't do anything like Sephiroth at all. So it's still illustrated that Sephiroth made the choice. He chose to murder.

He actually probably would have. The game and 10th Anniversary Ultimania pretty much state that Sephiroth turns his back on humanity and the planet because of his hate for them. They personalize his responsibility pretty clearly. Again, Jenova plays a part but it's hardly the sole cause. His psyche was vulnerable but in the end, he made a choice too.

As far as I understand though, the Ultimania doesn't ever actually state that Sephiroth's choices weren't strongly influenced by Jenova fucking with his mind. Indeed, from what I understand at the point he finds out his life was a lie his will was actually pretty weak. Jenova could easily have taken advantage of his moment of weakness to fuck with his mind and bend him to a course that he wouldn't otherwise have taken. So yeah, he made a choice, but it's a choice that he might not have made without the alien in his brain. That's all I'm sayin'.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well I think that's more of a gray area. Yeah, Sephiroth's mind was probably influenced (we see this when Sephiroth has his headache in the Nibel reactior in CC...an image of Jenova flashes in his head) but how much he's influenced isn't really stated.

However, the creators make no mistake or hesitation on repeatedly saying that Sephiroth made the choice and chose to do what he did. They never portray him as a victim of circumstance or try to undermine his responsibility at all. If anything, the emphasize his break from humanity as a personal choice and action due to his past.

Had Sephiroth not have Jenova in his brain he wouldn't even be in said position Yeah what you say makes sense, however it seems pretty tied to the situation in and of itself.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Pretty much, yeah. He may have consciously made that choice, however his consciousness after his moment of weakness seems to be substantially different from his consciousness before it. Let's face it, most misanthropes don't actively desire to kill everyone else on the planet.

 

[Makoeyes987]

But see, now we have an interesting dilemma.

Could Sephiroth *ever* have made a different choice to begin with? Jenova is in his blood. It is tied to his very genetic structure and biological existence. The proximity more than likely played a role, but would have finding out the truth at any other time or place *really* have stopped Sephiroth from walking down the path of evil? He'd have made to Nibelheim eventually to read the research for himself.

Could he ever have escaped his attachment to his creation? Yeah the Jenova played some role in his acting out, but it seems pretty inevitable. He *is* Jenova.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Pretty much. As I said, it's pretty convenient for Jenova that his goals end up mirroring her own. Then again, given how thoroughly he was infused with her it was pretty much inevitable.

 

[Masamune]

Dude, Marvel has had many more years and writers to craft their characters. Magneto isn't an antagonist featured as the main antagonist in one RPG game that lasts for a few hours. Magneto's been around for years. Hell, his villainy isn't even the same calibre. He's certainly more morally ambiguous and relatable. His antagonism with the X-Men and the world at large is waaaaaay more relatable and real than Sephiroth. Because he's based on reality and social commentary of the time. Magneto is a victim of the worst sides of humanity and civilization. Prejudice, hate, war, etc. Sephiroth is a fantasy experiment victim how has no moral ambiguity or relatability. It's like comparing heaven and earth. You should at least compare something on Sephiroth's level than something else.

Correct me if I'm wrong, comic buffs, but it was Chris Claremont who fleshed out Magneto's character. One person. Yes, he's been reinterpreted by many over the years, but that's irrelevant because it comes back to his basic premise.

The comparison I made was to highlight that if a character is going to rage against humanity then they should have legitimate motive and context for doing so. Magneto was persecuted as a minority, and finds his purpose with the coming of mutantkind.

Sephiroth is betrayed by Shinra, falls into the Lifestream, and decides he is more powerful than everyone else who can go burn while he becomes a god.

Uh, you don't think being used and manipulated is suffering? Finding out your life, purpose and past is just a cover up? Yeah he was privileged but it was a hollow existence. You can't seriously be telling me that Sephiroth should've been happy and a-okay finding out his life, past, and humanity was a farce, and he was nothing more than a test tube baby. Combine that with his already disattachment to the population at large and clearly...he ain't well adjusted or normal at all.

You're putting words in my mouth. I never presumed Sephiroth would be content as Shinra's dirty little secret. He bore no grudge with humanity leading up to events at Nibelheim. His problems begin and end with Shinra.

If you're not satisfied with the Magneto comparison, let's look closer to home: What about Seymour? Not a particularly memorable FF villain, but justified more than Sephiroth. Seymour was ostracised by his own people, and after his mother dies he develops an unhealthy obsession with Spira's tradition of death and sacrifice. He wants to become Sin because nihilism is the only way to save Spira. Totally screwed up, but at least he had a background for what he was trying to achieve.

Uh, this is Final Fantasy dude. Where clowns turn evil due to magic infusion, clouds of darkness decide obliterate the world, and giant trees come to life to threaten existence with void. You're clearly taking the scope of this narrative out of context.

You're using a weak strawman, Mako. If this were really the case, I would be attacking the franchise in general, not just Sephiroth.

You will agree that Final Fantasy is home to many engrossing characters? Then why shouldn't I expect the same standard with Sephiroth?

 

[Munatik]

Who says the creators wanted you to see Sephiroth as tragic and pitiable? Nomura has even said that he doesn't understand why people try to pity Sephiroth or feel sorry for him, when he's gone and acquired such power and heightened existence. People seem to think we're supposed to feel bad for him or something.

No, there certainly is no rule that says villians have to be tragic and pitiable, but I think it would have made Sephiroth's case more interesting. I am generally in agreement with Masamune on this. I think the most effective villians are the ones that can make you "sympathize with the Devil." I think Darth Vader was brought up as good example.

Instead, we have Sephiroth who ends up like every other villian who wants absolute power. To make a character all evil (or all good) is boring. That's stuff for Saturday morning cartoons. Been there, beat that. I think CC attempted to put these human touches on to dilute that, but since it all went to shit and he becomes a "symbol of evil" as you describe, it really takes away from his connection to the rest of us.

I admit, in some cases I enjoy a villian who isn't very deep. Kefka as mentioned is a prime example of that kind of villian done right, I think. I like defeating evil because it saves the world, but Kefka was an insane evil bastard I just wanted to kill, with restoring the world as a nice consequence. I think that has a lot to do with Kefka actually succeeding in his ambitions for a while there, but he was a rather shallow villian I could appreciate despite myself. I didn't feel that way about Sephiroth, which may explain why I'd like to see something that makes him more compelling.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Uh what? Who says they need a "legitimate" reason? That's subjective and there are MANY villains in media who rage against humanity for much less of a cause and for no cause at all. Who ever said villainy and evil had to be logical and relatable? A villain can be evil just because, or for purely sadistic and selfish reasons. Sephiroth is not a victim here, nor is he meant to be identified with.

I think Seymour is a much more fair example. Sephiroth's motivation and angst however, is much more internal and psychological. While Seymour's cause for turning against Spira is more tangible in nature, Sephiroth clearly states he felt different from everyone else. A clear allusion to feeling isolated and removed from people at large.

Sephiroth: …I've always felt since I was small… That I was different from the
others. Special, in some way. But…not like this…

Then you have Crisis Core. Which reveals even more how removed and isolated Sephiroth was from his peers. Sephiroth hardly interacts with fellow SOLDIERs and his only friends are Zack, Genesis and Angeal. The game paints a picture of a very socially inept and lonely Sephiroth, with one email even saying

With the main SOLDIER 1sts gone missing, and Sephiroth
not being the type to look after subordinates,
I'm thinking it's you who's gonna lead us.
You're moving up the chain!
And I'm following you until the end, Zack!

Clearly, Sephiroth isn't seen even by his subordinates as one who would even look after his subordinates. Despite his portrayal as the poster boy for Shinra and a hero, he has no real substance in terms of identifying with his men. Then there's this.

Sephiroth is known to value his private life, but there was
a time when he had two best friends.

Sephiroth is not known to be sociable or well adjusted. It's apparent that the source of his maladjustment is not just through the realization of his origins but his lack of connection with humanity as a whole. He is alone. I don't think anyone is trying to justify Sephiroth's path at all. It's not something that needs justification. It has a reason. And that reason is his detachment with humanity at large, and the fact his life was a lie. It created a swell of rage and hatred towards everything which in turn led to him turning against everything.

And it's not a strawman, my point in saying that is you're expecting Sephiroth, a video game antagonist for one game, to have as much complexity and justifiable exposition as a comic book villain who not only has been around since 1963, but has had decades of social commentary, exposition, and narrative focus injected into his character. It's ridiculously unfair.

And yeah, FF characters are engrossing but you can't be serious in expecting them to have as much narrative focus and clarity as a character that has been written and fleshed out as much as Magneto. That's like comparing Ganondorf to Lex Luthor. Yeah, they're both villains but hardly on the same level at all.

@munatik

That's your opinion and not all villainy can be morally ambigous or justifiable. That's hardly realistic. The fact of the matter is, is that some people do bad things for purely selfish and unjustifiable reasons. Lust for power and vanity are just as real as individuals who dedicate themselves to misguided crusades and thus end up doing bad things to good people. All villains can't be "fallen heroes." Villainy comes in all shapes and sizes, from Lex Luthor to Magneto to Brainac. Saying one villain is better than the other beause of their motivation is subjective and completely ignores the other facets of evil. If you can justify a villain as Kefka, who has no motivation for his actions other than the thrill of doing it, then you should be able to step outside your box and understand the internal psychological pressures that cause Sephiroth to abandon his hero mantle and for his own selfish and sadistic reasons, try to fashion himself a god of the planet. You make no sense saying Kefka has more justification in terms of being "done right" than Sephiroth when if by your logic, they need a reason to be sympathized with. Which was never the case to begin with, with Sephiroth.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I think Kefka works better as an example of absolute evil because he actually takes pleasure in causing others suffering. Sephiroth, by contrast, seems more or less indifferent to it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Are you sure about that?

Sephiroth smiling as he sets fire to Nibelheim? Smiling wickedly while he tries to kill his former best friend?

These lines below:

Sephiroth: What are you saying? Are you trying to tell me you have feelings too?

Cloud: Of course! Who do you think I am!?

Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha...... Stop acting as if you were sad. There's no need to
act as though you're angry either. Because, Cloud. You are...

Sephiroth disappears and left another Jenova behind. Cloud’s group fights
Jenove-LIFE. After Cloud’s group defeated Jenova-LIFE...

Jenova: Because, you are...... a puppet.

Cloud: What's wrong, Tifa? I'm not affected by it. ...I wasn't paying attention
to him.

Tifa: All that talk of Hojo constructing you is a lie. Don't we have our
memories together? Being kids together, starlit night...

Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha... Tifa... Why are you so worried and scared by those
words? Hmm... Shall I show everyone here what's in your heart? Ha, ha, ha...
You look like you're not feeling well.

Tifa: That's not what I mean... I don't know how to say it... Cloud, I need
same time... Just give me a little time...

Sephiroth: Cloud... Don't blame Tifa. The ability to change one's looks, voice,
and words, is the power of Jenova. Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa's
memories, creating you. Out of Tifa's memory...... A boy named Cloud might've
just been a part of them.

Tifa: Cloud... Please... don't think right now.

Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha...... Think, Cloud? ...Cloud? Ha, ha, ha...... Oh, excuse
me. You never had a name...

Hell, even Kefka thinks so

The Emperor (talking about Sephiroth): ...What does he know? What is he after...?

Cefca: Don't worry about it. That guy is just a sadist who looks down on
others.

That's not the portrayal of an indifferent evil antagonist to me.

 

[Gale]

I think Kefka works better as an example of absolute evil because he actually takes pleasure in causing others suffering. Sephiroth, by contrast, seems more or less indifferent to it.

I'd argue that Sephiroth takes pleasure in causing suffering in the case of Cloud, but I understand that Kefka is a different beast entirely.

 

[Munatik]

That's your opinion and not all villainy can be morally ambigous or justifiable. That's hardly realistic. The fact of the matter is, is that some people do bad things for purely selfish and unjustifiable reasons. Lust for power and vanity are just as real as individuals who dedicate themselves to misguided crusades and thus end up doing bad things to good people. All villains can't be "fallen heroes."

I didn't make sense because you somehow misunderstood me completely. This^ not what I said at all. I never said all villians needed be be morally ambiguous or justifiable. I agree that there is a place for villians who are selfish and evil just because. My point instead was that the most effective villians are the ones who cause you to sympathize with them. That is certainly my opinion, but it is thus my reason for not believing Sephiroth to be a very good villian. I cited Kefka because he was of the same type but only marginally better at making me care about him, though it was not out of sympathy.

And about the amount of time given to Marvel villains versus FF villains, I definitely agree that it's more difficult to create a good villain in a one-shot like a game or a movie than it is in a series like a comic. You could argue that FFVII since it became a compilation isn't much of a one-shot anymore, but the better thing to mention is that there are plenty of one-shot mediums who deliver effective bad guys. They usually do this by making them more than just pure evil, and by not overdoing it either way.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Mako, I meant that by contrast to Kefka he seems indifferent. Nothing you cited comes close to "Nothing can beat the music of hundreds of voices screaming in unison."

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ahh my bad

But if effective villains are villains who people can sympathize with, that pigeonholes the entire aspect of villainy right there. How many crimminals and "bad people" are sympathetic victims of circumstance? A villain is supposed to be a villain first. Typecasting a bad guy to always have some sob story is cliche. Part of reality is the fact that sometimes bad things happen for no reason at all, and sometimes people do things for entirely selfish and despicable, perverse reasons.

I just don't see the logic in such a judgment It's okay for Kefka to be evil without cause, but not Sephiroth? Or at the very least, evil for a cause thats internal and selfish?

@V

I think Kefka and Sephiroth are pretty sadistic but on different scales.

Kefka is a sadist that enjoys making large groups of people suffer.

Sephiroth on the other hand likes the intimacy of making just one person suffer.

They both exhibit the same qualities, however Kefka never found a "special someone" to constantly torture or hurt. Sephiroth focuses his energies on Cloud particularly. It's the nature of their rivalry and conflict. They really aren't quite in the same league, since Kefka wouldn't really focus on just one person.

 

[Ⓐaron]

It's not so much that it's okay for one to be evil without cause and the other not to as it is that Kefka is just much better at being evil without cause than Sephiroth is. Square kind of toyed around with trying to give a semi-logical reason for why Sephiroth went insane in the game, whereas the only reason you're presented with for Kefka is the Magitek experiments, and Sephiroth still doesn't come across as being as sadistic as Kefka is. Moreover, Kefka has much better lines So yeah, one is just a more effective villain than the other for reasons that have mostly to do with their presentation.

 

[Makoeyes987]

One thing that's different between Kefka and Sephiroth is definitely their presentation and level of appearance.

Sephiroth is only seen a handful of times, and speaks very few lines in the entire course of FFVII. He is portrayed more as an ominous, unseen threat that looms over the planet.

Kefka is encountered several times in FFVI and is seen as not just a threat, but a tangible foe that pursues the party repeatedly. He's made personal by his appearances and repeated scenes of dialogue.

Nomura even said that they wanted to craft Sephiroth as an ominous threat beyond any human. Like a supernatural force. Which makes sense given that you only *truly* encounter Sephiroth two times in the entire game. He's more of a force than a character, really.

Kefka only becomes the supernatural, untouchable force of evil during the end of the game when he becomes a god of magic and uses the powers of the Warring Triad. Before, he was just a nutjob Imperial General.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Yeah, I guess it's just kind of hard to take a sadist who likes making one person suffer as being as big a threat as a sadist who likes making large numbers of people suffer. I can definitely agree that he comes across in a very different fashion from Kefka, but it's not the sort of presentation that evokes much of an emotional response, really, at least for me.

 

[Makoeyes987]

"a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic."

Soviet Russian dictators know best!

 

[Ⓐaron]

He was biased though since he was responsible for millions of deaths himself

 

[Makoeyes987]

ROFL, I could see Stalin appreciating Kefka more anyways

 

[Munatik]

But if effective villains are villains who people can sympathize with, that pigeonholes the entire aspect of villainy right there. How many crimminals and "bad people" are sympathetic victims of circumstance? A villain is supposed to be a villain first. Typecasting a bad guy to always have some sob story is cliche. Part of reality is the fact that sometimes bad things happen for no reason at all, and sometimes people do things for entirely selfish and despicable, perverse reasons.

Sure, there are enough sympathetic villians out there now to where the archetype can be considered cliche. And there is no question that there are plenty of poorly-written sympathetic villians out there who endure the same ol' tired traumas we've seen over and over again like child abuse or whatever. But what makes a sympathetic villian different from the cliche of one who is purely evil 'just because' is the opportunity to connect him/her more personally with the audience. If balanced right, a well-written villian can affect the audience emotionally and psychologically as much as a well-developed protagonist can. And yes, shit happens in life and in stories, and people do bad things for unexplained or no reason, but those kinds of circumstances can be used to develop a decent villian instead of just flatly characterizing the villain him or herself.

It's okay for Kefka to be evil without cause, but not Sephiroth? Or at the very least, evil for a cause thats internal and selfish?

It's okay for either of them to be the pure evil type. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm saying that Sephiroth is uncompelling and Kefka is somehow mysteriously awesome. I don't think either of them are particularly compelling villians while I'm using the sympathy yardstick--or at least outside of being the main cause for all the problems in the game. My distinction mainly arises from Kefka actually getting a little more of an emotional response out of me. He followed through in much of his evilness, and so I really wanted to see that bastard go by the end of the game. I didn't feel as strongly in that way about Sephiroth.

P.S. But we all know Mario is who Stalin would love, if only because there is a striking resemblance. Maybe we should be sympathizing with Bowser and his futile efforts to thwart Mario-stalin's extremist scheme of slaughtering his loyal citizens and heirs before overthrowing the monarchy.

 

[IndianaoftheJones]

Okay....then I ask you when did FFVII ever say Jenova did what Sephiroth said, or Sephiroth illustrate or say he was under the control of Jenova at all?

Hojo would like to have a word with you, sir.

I'm not sure if you're talking to me or not, but I was talking about how Sephiroth is manipulating Jenova. And before you say anything else you've said so several times in this thread.

Again, Sephiroth is not being controlled or manipulated.

He made a choice to act out. Jenova didn't MAKE him do anything.

Clearly, the fact Sephiroth is ursurping Jenova's own Reunion means he's the one controlling her as well as the Sephiroth clones.

The game pretty much says Sephiroth is in control if you read the quotes from Hojo I posted.

***Sephiroth's will and Jenova's will*** (Page 53)
The Sephiroth clones seen in various locations continue gathering for the
Reunion. Seemingly, the will of Jenova as a human is the result of it
consuming Sephiroth's spirit; in actuality, Sephiroth is controlling Jenova.

....No dude. Will you stop saying Jenova was in control? Sephiroth is not being puppeted. HE is the puppet master.

Please don't kill the discussion arguing over a fact of the story,,, that Sephiroth is clearly in control of Jenova and shit.

It's just obvious. Hojo says it.

That's true..he is remotely controlling Jenova.

All I was saying was that for the longest time I assumed she was the puppet master and the one always in control, then I found out it was Sephiroth and it didn't make as much sense. Because as this topic states, what the fuck happened? You would have thought someone would have been able to calm him the hell down at one point. I always assumed Jenova kinda took over there and even though she probably didn't help, it was Sephiroth doing it all along.

Frankly I think Sephiroth just needs to get laid.

 

[Dark and Divine]

All I was saying was that for the longest time I assumed she was the puppet master and the one always in control, then I found out it was Sephiroth and it didn't make as much sense. Because as this topic states, what the fuck happened?

I believe that being betrayed by the people he respected and finding out about the experiments that gave him birth caused Sephiroth to develop a hatred for mankind.

Finding out that the man he respected greatly and assumingly saw as a fatherly figure (Professor Gast), was responsible for those experiments, caused an even deeper wound in Sephiroth’s mind, augmenting his hatred.

These psychological wounds and Sephiroth’s confusion, together with Jenova’s influence, caused the momentarily state of insanity that led Sephiroth to believe he was the heir of the Cetra and to the Nibelheim events.

After his fall in the Lifestream, Sephiroth was able to regain his mind and realize that Jenova was not a Cetra, while being also able to dominate the creature's spirit/will.

But even so, his hatred towards mankind was still there.

And it was that hate that caused Sephiroth to develop a superiority complex and his desire to become a God and rule over the beings that he saw as inferior to him.

 

[IndianaoftheJones]

I do get that, but it all just happened so fast and made more sense to be when I believed Jenova to be in control. After I first played the game for the first time me and my friend basically came to the conclusion that Sephiroth was not the real bad guy of the game. Jenova was.

I still say Sephiroth needs to get laid
Also, I will chose to believe the "Jenova is Sephiroth" thing that a couple people have said.

 

[Dashell]

... I seem to remember something in the game saying that when Jenova came to the planet she acted as the Cetra's friend (or making their mind think that she was an ally) at first then inflicted them with a disease.

Am I remembering that right? If so it kinda makes Jenova have a little bit more of a "KILL KILL KILL" mentality.