Sephiroth: What the fuck happened?

[BWAngel]

He may have started the research on Jenova, but my point is that I can't see any way he could have known it would lead into... that. He was naïve. That's the worst I'm willing to say about him.

Wouldn't that be the same thing with Lucrecia then, not knowing what would happen until she started to see the future? I don't think neither her nor Hojo knew what those cells would have done until they were injected into the. Unless Hojo injected those cells into himself knowing the consequences.

 

[Masamune]

Our opinions of Gast aside, the facts prove he was equally culpable for Sephiroth's creation. Whether Hojo was a bastard or Lucrecia was an unfit mother, you can't argue with the facts.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Wouldn't that be the same thing with Lucrecia then, not knowing what would happen until she started to see the future? I don't think neither her nor Hojo knew what those cells would have done until they were injected into the. Unless Hojo injected those cells into himself knowing the consequences.

It's been several years since I played FFVII so my memory of its chronology may be hazy, but I seem to recall that Gast had already quit the project by that point due to being disturbed about Jenova's true nature. So I would give Lucrecia more culpability than Gast due to the fact that warning signs existed by the time she consented to the experiment, but still not as much as Hojo since he was the one most responsible for it.

Our opinions of Gast aside, the facts prove he was equally culpable for Sephiroth's creation. Whether Hojo was a bastard or Lucrecia was an unfit mother, you can't argue with the facts.

How was he in any way approaching equally culpable? He started the research. He had no way of foreseeing what a remorseless killer Jenova would turn out to be or how far beyond the bounds of ethics Shinra would be willing to go in its pursuit of power.

 

[Masamune]

It doesn't matter whether he could predict events or not. The same goes for Hojo & Lucrecia, but that doesn't prevent them being condemned for their involvement.

Looking at this objectively, Gast holds as much responsibility for Sephiroth as anyone else involved with the Jenova project.

 

[Gale]

To be fair, Sephiroth knew of Gast, so he had to have stayed with the company for some time after the experiment was conducted.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Looking at this objectively, Gast holds as much responsibility for Sephiroth as anyone else involved with the Jenova project.

How?

 

[Ⓐaron]

It doesn't matter whether he could predict events or not.

Why doesn't it matter?

The same goes for Hojo & Lucrecia, but that doesn't prevent them being condemned for their involvement.

Hojo continued the experiments long after he had grasped Jenova's nature as a remorseless killer. Gast didn't. The two aren't comparable at all.

Looking at this objectively, Gast holds as much responsibility for Sephiroth as anyone else involved with the Jenova project.

He wanted to conduct research on Jenova, he didn't actually think it was a good idea to create fucking babies with Jenova cell injections. Equating the two is absurd.

To be fair, Sephiroth knew of Gast, so he had to have stayed with the company for some time after the experiment was conducted.

Not necessarily, he could've just been mentioned after his departure.

 

[Gale]

I suppose it's possible he was no longer with the company, but I certainly gleamed that impression from the way Sephiroth speaks about Gast. I'm not sure that he'd have such reverence for a scientist he never met.

 

[Masamune]

Okay, let me explain:

It's simply cause and effect. Everything comes back to the Jenova Project, which was Gast's brainchild. Now you could argue that anything can be justified through causality, but this is an exceptional circumstance. Gast's erroneous research (or even lack of research altogether) was the deciding factor of Sephiroth's birth. Had Gast done his homework, all of this could have been avoided. I'm not saying the man is as despicable as Hojo or anything like that, but the fact remains he was at the centre of the Project.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Masamune is such a cold hearted machine. Using logic, common sense, and just...cause and effect. Such cold, impersonal things.

Seriously though, he kinda has a point.

 

[Ⓐaron]

So because Gast naïvely believed that there would be no negative consequences to his research, he's to blame for everything other people did with it? I'm not seeing the logic here. Yes, without Gast the odds that any of the other events of FFVII would have happened immediately would have been reduced (though let's face it, unless someone destroyed Jenova that cycle of events would probably eventually have happened at some point regardless). However, he didn't do those things. Indeed, he resigned from Shinra (and was ultimately murdered for doing so) because he found them so ethically repulsive. Giving him equal causal responsibility to Hojo and Lucrecia is absurd. No one had to go and create a child with Jenova cell injections just because Gast did some research on Jenova. Gast had no part of that.

I guess we can blame Gast for not destroying Jenova when he learned of her true nature, but that's pretty much the only thing he did that was ethically questionable rather than simply naïve.

 

[Gale]

Yeah, I'll concede that Gast made mistakes in his research that he's responsible for.

But considering Hojo, would knowing that Jenova wasn't a Cetra have prevented his experiments?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Considering how many small towns there are in FF7 I get the impression that before Shinra and Mako the world was somewhat underdeveloped. The only real internationalism seems tied directly to Shinra, which just dominates the entire economy and political structure of the world. It didn't seem as though there were any large governments before them.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean it should be irrelevant. There's a lot of potential for information from that era.

 

[Dark and Divine]

But considering Hojo, would knowing that Jenova wasn't a Cetra have prevented his experiments?

Not at all.

Probably, it would cause Hojo to be even more excited about Jenova and the experiments he was going to do.

Hojo is insane.

Spoiler

In BC, he even thought that being kidnapped by Fuhito's Avalanche would be interesting

 

[Masamune]

You choose to call it naive, V, but I would call Gast's actions incompetent. Had he not made such a mistake, Sephiroth would not exist. That doesn't necessarily make him bad or chiefly responsible, but it does portion an equal share of the blame to him. Whether or not it would have happened regardless of his involvement, we can't say. That's purely hypothetical.

 

[Ⓐaron]

You choose to call it naive, V, but I would call Gast's actions incompetent.

He's incompetent because he has no idea what other people will do with the research he starts?

Had he not made such a mistake,

How is conducting research into the true nature of an unknown entity a mistake?

Sephiroth would not exist.

Speculation; Sephiroth might not exist but that wouldn't have stopped someone from creating something like him eventually. The only thing that would have is destroying Jenova, which is why I said not destroying Jenova is the only thing he can be blamed for.

That doesn't necessarily make him bad or chiefly responsible, but it does portion an equal share of the blame to him.

Why does he deserve to be "equally blamed" for something he found so morally repulsive that he eventually resigned his position over it?

 

[Masamune]

He's incompetent because he has no idea what other people will do with the research he starts?

So you're saying there is no incompetence in mistaking Jenova's identity and then using her cells to create half-breeds? He screwed up.

How is conducting research into the true nature of an unknown entity a mistake?

Because he mistook Jenova's "true nature". Had he done his homework, it would not have happened.

Speculation; Sephiroth might not exist but that wouldn't have stopped someone from creating something like him eventually. The only thing that would have is destroying Jenova, which is why I said not destroying Jenova is the only thing he can be blamed for.

That's still a moot point, V. The bottom line is Gast WAS the man who initiated this project, therefore he's partly responsible.

Why does he deserve to be "equally blamed" for something he found so morally repulsive that he eventually resigned his position over it?

His ethics are irrelevant in this matter. He was still responsible for Sephiroth's birth, and it could have been prevented.

 

[Ⓐaron]

What "homework" could he have done to prevent himself from mistaking Jenova's identity without doing further experiments on her?

And I'm not disputing that he's partly responsible. You said he's equally responsible, which is an absurd statement.

 

[Masamune]

That's not my call to make. He had clearly not performed the correct research, otherwise he would not have presumed Jenova to be a Cetra, when she was really a rampaging alien.

He is partly responsible, but it's an equal part all the same. I think it's hard to proportion the blame in this case, and that often leads to scapegoating.

 

[Ⓐaron]

My point stands. How was he to tell without doing research on her? It was only as a result of his research that he discovered she was an alien, and when he discovered her true nature he stopped. How was he to know what "the correct research" was if he didn't know what her nature was?

Assigning them equal parts of the blame when they did not have equal involvement in Sephiroth's birth makes no sense. The person who injected Jenova cells into his unborn son is far more responsible than the person who found injecting Jenova cells into someone's unborn son to be ethically repuslive.

 

[Masamune]

We don't know what diagnostics he actually performed on Jenova, but what we do know is he got it wrong - BIG TIME. He should be held responsible for that.

It makes perfect sense, V. As I said when I referenced cause and effect, Gast put Jenova under operation and that led to the creation of Sephiroth. Just because it breached his principles afterwards doesn't mean he isn't equally at fault.

 

[Ⓐaron]

He made a mistake. Like I said, he's naïve. It's a big jump from naïve to incompetent. Hell it's a big jump from "he made a scientific mistake" to "he's incompetent." Incompetent is a strong word. He didn't correctly identify Jenova as an alien. What, exactly, would he have had to do to ascertain that she was an alien? As far as I'm aware, the story doesn't specify. Maybe creating hybrids was the only way he could have ascertained the story's true nature. Hell, just because she was an alien wouldn't have been reason enough to suspect she was evil. Calling him incompetent because he didn't recognise her true nature is... jumping to conclusions. From the information we have, we don't know for sure that he didn't run all the diagnostics he could have. It's not like there was tons of information about the Cetra remaining in the first place, if I remember correctly.

Gast putting Jenova under operation didn't lead to the creation of Sephiroth. Hojo injecting Lucrecia with Jenova cells while she was pregnant led to the creation of Sephiroth. Gast was not responsible for it. He started the research which other people eventually continued by injecting a pregnant woman with Jenova cells, but dropped out before it got that far. That's the most he can be blamed for it. Saying that he's equally culpable is silly.

 

[Masamune]

Gast's job was to produce a Cetra for Shinra, but he failed to do so. And within that failure, he left the world with Jenova's legacy. That, my friend, is incompetence. But let's not quibble over semantics.


And, unless the Compilation retconned things, Gast was involved with the project:

Vincent: This body is... the punishment that's been given to me... I was
unable...... to stop Professor Gast and Hojo... And Lucrecia... I was unable to
stop them... All that I was able to do was watch... That is my punishment...

 

[Ⓐaron]

And he resigned after he realised what Jenova was, and that Shinra was going to continue with the project regardless of her true nature. He made a professional mistake; going that far to say that he's "incompetent" as the result of one mistake is a pretty big leap. Hell, it's explicitly stated that Hojo plagiarised most of his research from Gast, so he can't have been that incompetent. If nothing else, it implies that Hojo is even more incompetent.

Saying he was "involved with the project" doesn't really clarify anything. Vincent could be referring to his failure to stop them researching Jenova at all. Vincent's even emo enough that I could easily see him beating himself up over something like that.

 

[Masamune]

Incompetence is when someone fails to successfully perform the action required of them. Did Gast do that?


Vincent's penitence came from failing to protect Lucrecia from using her child in the experiment. That's what he's referring to, and that's why he locked himself away. Therefore, in the original continuity at least, Gast was involved.