Sephiroth: What the fuck happened?

[Ⓐaron]

He resigned from the company before finding a Cetra because he realised how unethical the company was was. That means he has a conscience, not that he's incompetent.

Gast could have been "involved" in the sense that he started the research. He resigned as a direct result of Hojo's research so I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have supported creating a child with Jenova cells. At least, that's the way I always interpreted it, but we got such a shitty translation that I suppose they could have meant he was involved more directly with Sephiroth's creation as well. That's never how I've interpreted it, though, otherwise his actions don't make as much sense.

 

[Masamune]

He resigned from the company before finding a Cetra because he realised how unethical the company was was. That means he has a conscience, not that he's incompetent.

Are they mutually exclusive?

Gast could have been "involved" in the sense that he started the research. He resigned as a direct result of Hojo's research so I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have supported creating a child with Jenova cells. At least, that's the way I always interpreted it, but we got such a shitty translation that I suppose they could have meant he was involved more directly with Sephiroth's creation as well. That's never how I've interpreted it, though, otherwise his actions don't make as much sense.

I don't know why Vincent would include Gast, if he had already resigned when Hojo was using Jenova cells. That doesn't sound right to me.

From the Ultimania:

Aerith's father. He was once the head of Shin-Ra Company's Science Department.Conducting research on the first humans, the Ancients, he believed Jenova [whom he had discovered] was an Ancient and began "the Jenova Project" to increase the Ancients' numbers, but during the process, he recognized his failures and resigned. At Icicle Lodge, with the cooperation of Ifalna, he would conduct original research that would make progress. However, shortly after their daughter was born, he was killed by Hojo and the results of his research were taken.
------------

Gast and collaborative research had bore the SOLDIERs, but 5 years ago, he [Hojo] began the Sephiroth Clones experiment on his own. Company employees keep watch over its progress and keep him informed.




The second part also implicates Gast, since the SOLDIER procedure followed Sephiroth's creation.


Anyway, it's late so I'm out of here for tonight. Buona notte!

 

[ForceStealer]

I know Hojo's words can't necessarily be taken at face value, but didn't Hojo say on the Mako cannon that he "offered the women with [his] child to Professor Gast's Jenova Project. I suppose it doesn't necessarily mean any thing, but I remember that's why I thought Project S might still be Gast's brainchild.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Are they mutually exclusive?

Not necessarily, but clearly the reason he did not find a Cetra for Shinra was because he did not want Shinra to find a Cetra. He eventually did find a Cetra, we might note, and not only did he conceal her existence from Shinra but he actually died defending her. Doesn't sound to me like the actions of an incompetent man, it sounds to me like the actions of a man with a conscience.

I don't know why Vincent would include Gast, if he had already resigned when Hojo was using Jenova cells. That doesn't sound right to me.

"Attack while it's tail's up" doesn't sound right to me either, especially since they clearly meant "Don't attack while its tail's up." FFVII has never been particularly noted for the quality of its translation.

The second part also implicates Gast, since the SOLDIER procedure followed Sephiroth's creation.

Not necessarily, since it says "Hojo began the Sephiroth Clones experiment on his own." Sephiroth could have been something Gast had no involvement in as well.

I know Hojo's words can't necessarily be taken at face value, but didn't Hojo say on the Mako cannon that he "offered the women with [his] child to Professor Gast's Jenova Project. I suppose it doesn't necessarily mean any thing, but I remember that's why I thought Project S might still be Gast's brainchild.

It's possible that he was involved and then had a change of heart. That said, I always interpreted it as Hojo trying to deflect responsibility onto those who, thanks to Hojo's own actions, were no longer able to defend themselves from false accusations.

 

[BWAngel]

Gast drew the wrongful conclusion that Jenova was a Cetra, and Shinra sent Hojo and Lucrecia Crescent to assist him in his research to create the Jenova Project. He and Hojo injected Lucrecia with Jenova cells, in order to make Lucrecia and Hojo's unborn child, a new race of Cetra. This child was called Sephiroth. Gast, however, regrets this decision, and leaves the project. Gast continues his research on the Cetra in his laboratory in Icicle Inn, where he meets Ifalna, the one of the last remaining Cetra.
He records the interviews he conducts on Ifalna, where he learns the truth about Jenova and the Promised Land. He later seems to have fallen in love with Ifalna, and they have a baby: Aeris, the last remaining Cetra. However, they are tracked down by the Shinra, and Hojo kills Gast trying to capture Ifalna and Aeris.

Source: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Gast_Faremis

I know they say don't trust Wiki, but this was as much as I could find on the guy.

EDIT: They might retcon this because I can't imagine Gast actually agreeing to keep Sephiroth away from his own mother. He seemed like such a nice man, no matter how pissed off he makes me.

 

[Ⓐaron]

That's why I assumed he had no part in it, but if that summary is accurate I must have remembered wrong. Still, my guess would be then that witnessing the way humans were basically nothing more than lab rats to Hojo would've been what drove him away from the project, which would still rank him as somewhat less culpable. Hell, if Sephiroth had actually received some humane treatment from people in his life he may never have descended to the low mental state he was at when he snapped.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Gast wasn't part of the creation of Sephiroth. Hojo and Lucrecia did that all on their own. He wasn't there at the Shinra Mansion at all when it happened as shown in FFVII and then DC.

Furthermore, its heavily alluded that its this and the other experiments that drive him to want to leave Shinra in disgust.

*Professor Gast and the Jenova Project*
Approximately 2000 years ago, Jenova collided with the Planet, and although
the Ancients were nearly reduced to extinction, some Ancient survivors
managed to seal Jenova underground in a deep sleep. However, Jenova would
awaken because of Gast's guidance of Shin-Ra's Science Department.

Approximately 30 years ago, the mummified form of Jenova was excavated and
Jenova mistakenly identified as an Ancient; the Jenova Project then began.
Hojo was a member of the project; the body of his colleague and lover,
Lucrecia, was utilized for experimental purposes, injected with Jenova cells
prior to her giving birth. Thus, Sephiroth was born.

After several years, Gast became wracked with guilt, and -- in regret of the
use of humans for such an abnormal experiement -- gave Shin-Ra his
resignation. He then removed himself to Icicle Lodge, which lay in the
vicinity of where he had discovered Jenova, and began new independent
research. There, he would make the acquintance of a local woman with the
name of "Ifalna," a survivor of the Ancients; interviewing her, he would begin
to arrive at the truth about the history of the Ancients, Jenova's mimic
ability and the WEAPONs (-->P.215), things which Shin-Ra knew nothing about.
In the meantime, a love between he and Ifalna would form, and together they
would make a home and have a child: Aerith. However, he would be shot under
Hojo's orders and the results of Gast's research fell into Hojo's hands.

So there you go

 

[Ⓐaron]

Thanks for quoting that; good to know my memory isn't completely unreliable Someone less lazy than me should fix the Final Fantasy wikia to make what happened a bit more clear; the article on Gast is pitifully underwritten.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

After several years, Gast became wracked with guilt, and -- in regret of the
use of humans for such an abnormal experiement

Doesn't this imply he had something to do with human experimentation? After all, it did take a couple of years to resign, and I'm sure as Shinra's top scientist, he wasn't just twiddling his thumbs during that time.

 

[Ⓐaron]

That doesn't mean he necessarily had something to do with Sephiroth specifically; indeed, the fact that he wasn't at the mansion when the experiments happened (as Mako pointed out above) implies that he didn't. While experimenting on grown humans is still questionable, I'm not sure it's more questionable than experimenting on pregnant mothers. Though it depends whether they've given their consent.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well what was he so guilty and regretful about? I know, I'm going to get 'because he's the one who thought Jenova was an Ancient' for an answer, but I was thinking he was feeling guilt for participation in the S Project, one way or the other. Why feel so guilty when you didn't do anything wrong?

 

[Max Payne]

He's likely to have been involved in other screwed up projects before that you know.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Well what was he so guilty and regretful about? I know, I'm going to get 'because he's the one who thought Jenova was an Ancient' for an answer, but I was thinking he was feeling guilt for participation in the S Project, one way or the other. Why feel so guilty when you didn't do anything wrong?

Experimenting on even consenting humans with infusions from an alien that turns out to be a remorseless killer is reason enough to feel guilty I think.

 

[Masamune]

That doesn't prove Gast was not responsible for Sephiroth's creation. In fact, the way it's structure implies that Gast left AFTER he had experimented on Sephiroth due to his guilt and regret.

As Force pointed out, Hojo says he 'offered' Lucrecia to Gast's project. And Vincent would not have implicated Gast if he had already left Shinra.

And again, V, you're implying that incompetence and compunction are mutually exclusive. Yes, he had a conscience, but Gast was wrong in his assessment of Jenova, and without making such a mistake Sephiroth would not exist.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

He was wrong in his assessment of Jenova, but still it was nothing he could foresee. We can't use simple cause and effect when talking about human behaviour because it is just that: human. That's why the third element (possibility of foresight) is added.

 

[Masamune]

He's not vindicated because he didn't predict what would happen. We're hardly talking a casual mistake here; we're talking about playing god.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Experimenting on even consenting humans with infusions from an alien that turns out to be a remorseless killer is reason enough to feel guilty I think.

Yeah, but Mako said that Gast wasn't responsible for the creation of Sephiroth, but I disagree. He wasn't balls deep in it like Hojo, but surely he had something to do with it.

That doesn't prove Gast was not responsible for Sephiroth's creation. In fact, the way it's structure implies that Gast left AFTER he had experimented on Sephiroth due to his guilt and regret.

As Force pointed out, Hojo says he 'offered' Lucrecia to Gast's project. And Vincent would not have implicated Gast if he had already left Shinra.

Exactly!

 

[BWAngel]

Yeah, but Mako said that Gast wasn't responsible for the creation of Sephiroth, but I disagree. He wasn't balls deep in it like Hojo, but surely he had something to do with it.

I wonder why he was never mentioned in CC when it came to discussing the rivalry between Hollander and Hojo because from what I understand those two were in competition with each other to get the position as Head of the Science Department. I still think Gast had something to do with it, but like I said before maybe they are retconning that twist of events.

EDIT: Who was the head of the science department when Gast was around anyway?

 

[Tetsujin]

EDIT: Who was the head of the science department when Gast was around anyway?

Gast?

 

[Munatik]

The hypothesis of Jenova being an Ancient would have been a hard one to test. Based on the Ultimania profile, there is no indication that Gast had ever found or met an Ancient before discovering Jenova. It was probably like being the first paleontologist. You discover the first dinosaur fossil, but you have absolutely no frame of reference for identifying it beyond that it was a creature and species that lived long ago.

With dinosaurs, though, the job is probably a little less daunting now that we have an incredible menagerie of species to compare discoveries to, in addition to methods that can tell us in what context it lived. Early paleontologists also made mistakes, such as giving T. Rex an uncomfortably vertical stature. But the discipline has had time to learn from such errors.

Gast did not have the luxury of having an evolving field of study behind him. He was going into his study blind. To make matters worse, Ancients are not physically distinct from regular humans. Instead, the Ancients' distinctive feature is spiritual, and thus impossible to observe in a dead specimen.

Jenova's body was just as similar. From the outside there were absolutely no distinctive features that could tell Gast whether Jenova was human, Ancient, or alien. Gast, without a good reference to pull from, probably would hypothesize Jenova to be an Ancient based on her location in the Planet's strata, and thus would exhume her in order to test that hypothesis. I'm sure the last thing on a paleontologist's mind is whether a fossil they dig up is actually an hostile alien from outer space. Perhaps we should check if that mummified baby mammoth isn't actually an extraterrestrial?

Anyway, the only way to test Gast's hypothesis was to produce an Ancient from Jenova. But again, without a frame of reference, Gast and his team would not know what to expect. In this way, Gast was probably a victim of his own scientific curiosity. However, it would have been impossible for him to know that unless he had known of Ifalna sooner.

On a related note, there a number of examples in history of scientists' work being used in horrific and immoral ways. Are they guilty merely by association, or for intent? Or does either fit the bill? How far separated by time and space does the scientist have to be before they no longer bear any responsibility?

 

[megas_sephiroth]

On a related note, there a number of examples in history of scientists' work being used in horrific and immoral ways. Are they guilty merely by association, or for intent? Or does either fit the bill? How far separated by time and space does the scientist have to be before they no longer bear any responsibility?

It is not a matter of time or space, it is a matter of intent. Even something done with the best intentions can be used for evil purposes. Some judicial systems use the possibility of foresight as a way to ascertain guilt. You can't blame someone for something that with the normal knowledge of a normal human being was not foresseable.

One could argue, Gast was a scientist. So what is asked instead is if any other scientist would entertain the notion that the thing discovered could be an alien and not something indigenous to the Planet. The answer seems to be no.

 

[Aya]

Yeah but Jenova does not exactly look human does she? I still do not understand how they came to the conclusion that Jenova was an Cetra.

Did Gast know nothing of Sephiroth then?

 

[Makoeyes987]

No one's seen a Cetra before. Hence, no one is going to think a Cetra is just an ordinary person when mythology and records made them sound like an ancient life form who had powers beyond those of normal humans.

 

[Aya]

True but she would of screamed alien to me lol. Did Gast have anything to do with Sephiroth then?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Honestly, not directly. Again, he wasn't present in Nibelheim during the whole Project S experiment. It was just Hojo, and Lucrecia.