Sephiroth: What the fuck happened?

[Cat Rage Room]

I'm not saying that it was all Gast's fault or that he was watching when Hojo and Lucrecia got down or anything. But to say that he didn't know about Project S, Project G, is a stretch. Where did Gast think these mystery babies used to produce their qausi Ancients would come from? Magic or something? Whether it was Hojo's kid or just some prostitute's mistake, Gast had to have been aware of what was necessary for the projects success, and okayed it.

 

[Aya]

Wow temper temper. Hahaha I never said it was Gast's fault. In fact I said it was Hojo and Lucrecia's fault. I went on for ages that I thought Lucrecia is an evil bitch. But Gast had obvisouly to do with it and is not completly blamless. Whether Sephiroth is his child or not.

I only showed that vid because someone was saying that Gast had left before Sephiroth had been born.

Chill!!!!! lol

 

[Makoeyes987]

I figure Gast learned about Project S and G after they started.

Hence him feeling guilty that his project would create these test tube babies and violate the laws of ethics and good sense. I never said he didn't know about Project S or G, but he wasn't there for them nor was he the one to "okay" it. We don't see him doing that at all.

And I'm not angry. I was kidding. Hence the

And ahh okay. Now I see the relevance

 

[BWAngel]

Yeah but Jenova does not exactly look human does she? I still do not understand how they came to the conclusion that Jenova was an Cetra.

Did Gast know nothing of Sephiroth then?

That and did he even decide to sample body tissues. Since Jenova was technically in a coma, therefore still alive, wouldn't there be some kind of cellular activity telling him something was wrong.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

So how did Gast think he was going to produce people with the powers of the Ancients? He must have known they were going to use test tube babies/etc from jump street.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Who said that was his idea?

That was the goal of Shinra, the company. To create Cetra to aid in the finding of mako to extract. He was just a researcher. I'm sure he knew some type of human experimentation was going to happen but I doubt he actually intended or wanted two couples of scientists to sacrifice their own unborn children and experiment on them like that.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I never said that it was his idea, but he was the head of the project. He must have known from the very beginning, and he must have been okay with it.

Gast: "We have to produce people with the powers of the Ancients, but we have to use PEOPLE to do so?! WHOA I HAD NO IDEA"

 

[Aya]

Whatever he was up to and he was the head of the science department so we can all presumbe it was not ethical and especially seen as he worked for ShinRa.

And lol sorry Mako Eyes I thought you was getting mad

 

[Makoeyes987]

I never said that it was his idea, but he was the head of the project. He must have known from the very beginning, and he must have been okay with it.

Gast: "We have to produce people with the powers of the Ancients, but we have to use PEOPLE to do so?! WHOA I HAD NO IDEA"

That made me LOL.

You know, it could be possible that Gast thought to extract or copy the traits of Jenova genetically and give the people the power of the Ancients that way. I'm not sure what he was thinking.

 

[Aya]

That made me LOL.

You know, it could be possible that Gast thought to extract or copy the traits of Jenova genetically and give the people the power of the Ancients that way. I'm not sure what he was thinking.

Yeah but with him being the head of the science department he would of had to authorize Project G and Project S. Wouldn't he?

There is not a lot of background infor on him for all we know he could of been just as mad as Hojo.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

That made me LOL.

You know, it could be possible that Gast thought to extract or copy the traits of Jenova genetically and give the people the power of the Ancients that way. I'm not sure what he was thinking.

Yeah, it could be possible, but it's more likely that he wanted to do what ended up happening; experimenting on unborn fetuses.

I know you're trying to cut Gast some slack, but the rest of us are simply going by what's presented to us.

 

[Ⓐaron]

What's presented to us doesn't really indicate whether he gave his consent to the experimentation of unborn fetuses or not, and absent evidence showing him okaying the project I'm going to assume he wasn't involved in it.

also I never said Gast wasn't responsible at all either, I just said he's not equally responsible to Hojo and Lucrecia.

And again, V, you're implying that incompetence and compunction are mutually exclusive. Yes, he had a conscience, but Gast was wrong in his assessment of Jenova, and without making such a mistake Sephiroth would not exist.

Do you seriously think that? Shinra pretty much proved through its actions that it didn't give a tin shit about the risks of injecting people with Jenova cells, especially since it continued doing so even after the dangers became obvious. Sephiroth himself might not exist without Gast's involvement, but someone like him would've been created whether Gast was involved or not, due to the fact that Shinra vastly overestimated the amount of control it had over its experiments. This happens so consistently throughout the course of the plot that it can almost be taken as a given that Shinra will fuck up by thinking it has more control over its science than it does. The only way to prevent an event like Sephiroth's from occurring creation would have been to destroy Jenova so that the experiments couldn't take place, and the game doesn't entirely make it clear whether that would even have been possible. Though I suppose as head of the science project Gast would've had more ability to do that than anyone else. As I said, Gast can be faulted for not destroying Jenova when he came to discover her true nature, but apart from that the worst I think he's guilty of is naïveté.

edit: though I think it's also worth pointing out in hindsight that even after you take into account the guilt he felt over his experiments, he still might not have fully understood just how dangerous Jenova was until he interviewed Ifalna, by which point it was too late for him to go back and destroy Jenova.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I'm not even going to bother arguing this with you, V. I'd be up all night.

 

[Masamune]

That's all hypothetical, V. Yes, another Frankenstein may have been created by Shinra, but that's neither here nor there. The bottom line is that the one they DID create is the responsibility of Gast, and everyone else behind the project.

Vincent's issues were not with the Jenova Project as a whole, but with Lucrecia using her own child in the experiment ("Project S"). It does not follow from Vincent's line: "I was unable...... to stop Professor Gast and Hojo... And Lucrecia..." to say that Gast neither sanctioned or took part in the experiment.

I don't understand why people are trying so hard to absolve Gast when he was clearly involved with the creation of Sephiroth.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

I don't understand why people are trying so hard to absolve Gast when he was clearly involved with the creation of Sephiroth.

I thought he wans't all the involved, that he had only found Jenova, but apparently he was in it as much as Lucrecia and Hojo, so, yeah, he's responsible too.

 

[Ⓐaron]

That's all hypothetical, V. Yes, another Frankenstein may have been created by Shinra, but that's neither here nor there.

It's pretty clearly shown that a shitload of characters are injected with Jenova cells, such as, I don't know, the main hero of the game.

It does not follow from Vincent's line: "I was unable...... to stop Professor Gast and Hojo... And Lucrecia..." to say that Gast neither sanctioned or took part in the experiment.

You interpret that line as referring specifically to the creation of Sephiroth; I interpret it as referring to the Jenova Project generally.

I don't understand why people are trying so hard to absolve Gast when he was clearly involved with the creation of Sephiroth.

Because he wasn't clearly involved with the creation of Sephiroth. There is not a single scene in the Compilation that shows him as being present when Sephiroth was created.

 

[Masamune]

It's pretty clearly shown that a shitload of characters are injected with Jenova cells, such as, I don't know, the main hero of the game.

But we're not talking about anyone else, we're talking about Sephiroth - who is an exceptional case.

You interpret that line as referring specifically to the creation of Sephiroth; I interpret it as referring to the Jenova Project generally.

Then I guess you missed my point that Vincent never objected to the Jenova Project; he was against Lucrecia using her unborn child:

Dirge of Cerberus -
Vincent: 'But using your own child for an experiment?'

Because he wasn't clearly involved with the creation of Sephiroth. There is not a single scene in the Compilation that shows him as being present when Sephiroth was created.

We never actually see it happen, anyway. And in Dirge of Cerberus, Gast wasn't particularly relevant, which would explain his omission. The game was predominantly about Vincent's love interest and his mortal enemy. Gast would have complicated that triangle.

 

[Ⓐaron]

But we're not talking about anyone else, we're talking about Sephiroth - who is an exceptional case.

I haven't been talking about Sephiroth. Gast could easily have felt guilt over being involved with the Jenova Project at all after realising what Jenova cell injections did to people.

Then I guess you missed my point that Vincent never objected to the Jenova Project; he was against Lucrecia using her unborn child:

Dirge of Cerberus -
Vincent: 'But using your own child for an experiment?'

As far as I'm aware, there's nothing indicating that he doesn't also object to injecting people with Jenova cells. That said, I haven't played DC so maybe there's something I'm missing.

We never actually see it happen, anyway. And in Dirge of Cerberus, Gast wasn't particularly relevant, which would explain his omission. The game was predominantly about Vincent's love interest and his mortal enemy. Gast would have complicated that triangle.

My point is that if Gast were there when it happened, he would've been depicted as being there somewhere in the compilation. As far as I'm aware, that not only doesn't happen in DC, it doesn't happen anywhere.

 

[Masamune]

As far as I'm aware, there's nothing indicating that he doesn't also object to injecting people with Jenova cells. That said, I haven't played DC so maybe there's something I'm missing.

Let's see some proof, then. Vincent only ever wanted to stop Lucrecia from being used. He might not have approved with the experiments at all, but he drew the line there.

My point is that if Gast were there when it happened, he would've been depicted as being there somewhere in the compilation. As far as I'm aware, that not only doesn't happen in DC, it doesn't happen anywhere.

Except the fact Vincent says he couldn't stop the three of them, which implies Gast was at the centre of it.

 

[Ⓐaron]

Let's see some proof, then. Vincent only ever wanted to stop Lucrecia from being used. He might not have approved with the experiments at all, but he drew the line there.

It's been awhile since I played the game, I'm just indicating the impression I got from it. I don't remember exactly what lines caused me to get that impression and until I replay the game I probably won't.

Except the fact Vincent says he couldn't stop the three of them, which implies Gast was at the centre of it.

He could just be referring to the fact that Gast was nominally in control of the Jenova Project and should have exerted more control over Hojo. Hell, he could've also just misunderstood Gast's role in what happened at Nibelheim; there's nothing saying Vincent has to have perfect understanding of what happened there. I'll take firsthand cutscene evidence over a rather vague implication in a single line.

 

[Masamune]

He could just be referring to the fact that Gast was nominally in control of the Jenova Project and should have exerted more control over Hojo. Hell, he could've also just misunderstood Gast's role in what happened at Nibelheim; there's nothing saying Vincent has to have perfect understanding of what happened there. I'll take firsthand cutscene evidence over a rather vague implication in a single line.

I do respect that, but what's particularly vague about that line? We see Gast, Hojo and Lucrecia together in Nibelheim. And there's nothing that contradicts what Vincent says or substantiates your theories. There's more evidence incriminating Gast than there is vindicating him.

 

[Ⓐaron]

We see all three of them present at the beginning yes, but by the time Hojo injects Lucrecia Gast is nowhere to be found in any cutscene I've been presented with. I think Vincent was just referring to the fact that it was Gast's project, that doesn't necessarily mean he was as involved with some of the more nefarious aspects of it as Hojo was.

 

[Gale]

I also find it hard to believe that Gast would have been okay with Hojo trying to murder Vincent and using his body for experimentation.

It leaves me with the feeling that if Gast was in Nibelheim, he didn't say for nearly as long as Hojo and Lucrecia.

 

[Masamune]

We don't actually see the Jenova transfusion, though. And the flashbacks relate to the love triangle between Vincent, Hojo and Lucrecia, and how Vincent came to be experimented on. Gast isn't relevant.

I also find it hard to believe that Gast would have been okay with Hojo trying to murder Vincent and using his body for experimentation.

It leaves me with the feeling that if Gast was in Nibelheim, he didn't say for nearly as long as Hojo and Lucrecia.

Perhaps that's why Gast washed his hands of the whole thing?

 

[Ⓐaron]

If Square had meant for Gast to be present at the Jenova transfusion, they would've shown him as there. To me, the fact that he's not there in most of the Nibelheim sequences is clearly intended to give us the impression that he didn't stick around for long and probably wasn't aware of a lot of what Hojo was doing. Hell, the reason he felt guilt to begin with could've just been for not keeping a closer leash on Hojo while he was doing all his Frankenstein's monster experiments.