Sephiroth: What the fuck happened?

[Makoeyes987]

Where the fuck did that rant come from, Masamune?

And huh? Who said he wanted to destroy the planet? If he's infecting the planet with his lifestream to control it, then that's pretty much wanting to take it over. Then he wants to use it to traverse the cosmos and do the same thing and conquer ANOTHER world.

And wtf? Sephiroth always wanted to take over the world. He just finally does it for himself instead of for Mommy once he realizes the truth. And hell..Why does ANY villain in FF want to control the planet? Because they can

 

[Masamune]

I'm talking in regards to FFVII, Mako. Sephiroth wanted to destroy the planet in exchange for supremity. The writers never explained why, and when you leave out motivation for characters they become cliché. He's evil for the sake of being evil. There are clues that all is not right behind the scenes, but you need more than that for a fully formed character.

Sephiroth never wanted to destroy the world at Nibelheim. True, his mind was dazed at that time, but he wanted to reclaim the world for the Cetra. Then he takes a dip into the Lifestream, and pops up with an incongruous new plan. When you create a character as elaborate in design as Sephiroth, you need something to back it up with.

And most credible villains have a motive for what they do, Mako.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I thought the fact that the planet's spirit energy would all be absorbed into him was a good enough reason and explanation as to why he wanted to do it.

He wanted to do it because he had a sense of entitlement as a superior life form. Just like he did before in Nibelheim. He felt because the Cetra were the "True Race" of the planet, Jenova had a right to rule. Not the lesser humans. And sense he was a Cetra, and created, and lied to, and used, he'd do it.

He then learns the truth. He's not a Cetra, he's even BETTER than the Cetra. So he will again, go through with his plan, except it'll be an even better one. For himself. To be a god.

So it's not really that inconsistent. He's reclaiming the world in a different way now. He's reclaiming and ruling the entire SOUL of the planet through his plan. It's not really incongruous at all. It's pretty consistent actually.

You're making Sephiroth sound like Albert Wesker.

 

[BWAngel]

I don't think he knows. The info he got from the library in Nibelheim was put there by Hojo.

I think Jenova is the one in control and not Sephiroth, it's through her (legacy) that he comes back and tries to destroy the planet once again.

So did Hojo set him up to go made?

Also, if Jenova was in control wouldn't she rant about taking over this inferior beings little mind, and finish what she started two millenia ago? Like I said before, I know Sephiroth is in control, but what if that was the plan of Jenova? She was described as being a cunning creature in UO, what if she 'gave' Sephiroth control of her body to do his bidding, and once he conquered all, BOOM, his bishi ass is kicked out of the high chair and she's taking control. Thougts peoples?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Please don't kill the discussion arguing over a fact of the story,,, that Sephiroth is clearly in control of Jenova and shit.

It's just obvious. Hojo says it.

I thought the Clones would begin to gather at
Midgar where Jenova is stored. But my predictions were not entirely correct.
Jenova itself began to move away from the Shinra Building. But being a genius
that I am, I soon figured it out. You see it was all Sephiroth's doing.
Sephiroth is not just content to diffuse his will into the Lifestream; he wants
to manipulate the Clones itself...Both
Jenova's Reunion and Sephiroth's will! They won't be diffused into the
Lifestream, but gathered here! Mwa, haa, ha,......

Jenova has no will of her own. Sephiroth's will is controlling her, and now she's dead. If that's her idea of cunning, then she really isn't that cunning to begin with. Sephiroth controlled her and the copies. His will dominated her's. There's nothing more to it.

 

[Masamune]

I thought the fact that the planet's spirit energy would all be absorbed into him was a good enough reason and explanation as to why he wanted to do it.

That doesn't say anything about his rationale. The robber blows the safe because he wants money - That doesn't explain how or why he became a crook.

He wanted to do it because he had a sense of entitlement. Just like he did before in Nibelheim. He felt because the Cetra were the "True Race" of the planet, Jenova had a right to rule. Not the lesser humans. And sense he was a Cetra, and created, and lied to, and used, he'd do it.

So it's not really that inconsistent. He's reclaiming the world in a different way now. He's reclaiming and ruling the entire SOUL of the planet through his plan. It's not really incongruous at all. It's pretty consistent actually.

I appreciate that. Now, where does this entitlement come from? In Nibelheim, he did it for Jenova, because his mind was confused and Jenovafied. But when he 'comes to his senses' so to speak, I don't see how or why he developed this god complex. It was poorly executed, and left Sephiroth a very flat villain, in my opinion. Especially for a game that was character-driven.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I was wondering if you gave up on our discussion

Well again. It all stems from his sense of entitlement. I thought the quotes...

Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha…… Who is it!? Hmph…traitor.

Cloud: Traitor?

Sephiroth: You ignorant traitor. I'll tell you. This was an itinerant race.
They would migrate in, settle the Planet, then move on… At the end of their
harsh, hard journey, they would find the Promised Land and supreme happiness.
But, those who stopped their migrations built shelters and elected to lead an
easier life. They took that which the Cetra and the planet had made without
giving back one whit in return! Those are your ancestors.

Cloud: Sephiroth…

Sephiroth: Long ago, disaster struck this planet. Your ancestors escaped… They
survived because they hid. The Planet was saved by sacrificing the Cetra. After
that, your ancestors continued to increase. Now all that's left of the Cetra is
in these reports.

Cloud: What does that have to do with you?

Sephiroth: Don't you get it? An Ancient named Jenova was found in the
geological stratum of 2000 years ago. The Jenova Project. The Jenova Project
wanted to produce people with the powers of the Ancients……no, the Cetra! …I am
the one that was produced.

Cloud: Pr…produced!?

Sephiroth: Yes. Professor Gast, leader of the Jenova Project and genius
scientist, produced me.

and

Aerith: Sephiroth is different. He's not an Ancient.


Cloud: He shouldn't be able to find the Promised Land.

Sephiroth: ...Ah, but I have. I'm far superior to the Ancients. I became a
traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients.
And soon, I will create the future.

Aerith: I won't let you do it! The future is not only yours!

Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha... I wonder? Wake up!

Shows that this is all stemming from a sense of entitlement, ego, and a god complex that Sephiroth has now gained. Due to the fact he grew to hate humanity and was used by the company that produced him, he's decided to turn against the people he feels he's superior to, and claim the planet which he thinks rightfully belong to him. He now has no connection to humanity anymore, and now has aligned himself with the life forms who he believes are more powerful and thus believes he is superior and has the right to be God.

His ego and entitlement merely grow and widen when he becomes aware of the truth.

 

[Dashell]

tsk... ah well look what I did. Sparked another debate. At least it's not about boobs this time.

I guess for the longest time I assumed Jenova was manipulating Sephiroth. I basically assumed they were almost kinda one and the same, so when I heard it was the other way around, I was baffled. Still kinda am really, I mean as this thread says, he was a nice guy at one point. Why not try to help everyone instead of trying to kill them?

I kinda wonder if he'll pull a Shadow someday, "Oh wait i"m not supposed to destroy the world, I'm supposed to SAVE it!... oh yeah!"

 

[BWAngel]

tsk... ah well look what I did. Sparked another debate. At least it's not about boobs this time.

I guess for the longest time I assumed Jenova was manipulating Sephiroth. I basically assumed they were almost kinda one and the same, so when I heard it was the other way around, I was baffled. Still kinda am really, I mean as this thread says, he was a nice guy at one point. Why not try to help everyone instead of trying to kill them?

I kinda wonder if he'll pull a Shadow someday, "Oh wait i"m not supposed to destroy the world, I'm supposed to SAVE it!... oh yeah!"

Interesting, why not make that shining new future he is so determined to make somewhere else right where he is at without becoming one with the planet. I like that concept.

 

[ForceStealer]

Masamune, speaking of incongruous new motives. Weren't you the very person talking about "badass decay" because Sephiroth used to be mysterious and then they started giving reasons for his madness? And now you say the fact that he was mysterious makes him a poorly written character. What gives?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Well, we all know what happened. It's the why and how that's the interesting part.

With Crisis Core, we saw a side to Sephiroth that has never been shown before in FFVII. Sephiroth as not only a human being, but a rather nice and warm hearted one towards his friends. We see him smile, laugh, joke and even get anecdotal evidence of the types of games and stuff he'd do with his friends.

Sephiroth is shown to value his interpersonal relationships (few as they may seem) and even specifically requests Zack to go along with him to Nibelheim because he sees him as a friend and worthy comrade.

But all of that amounted to shit when he finally loses his mind, knowing the truth about his birth. He changes. The once hero and friend to Zack not only murders and burns down the village, but tries to kill his friend. And even smiles wickedly while doing so.

Do you think it was his true nature, this violent, cruel streak? Or do you think it was something that was created when he lost his mind? And do you think he'd still be the good, heroic person he was known for, had he never discovered the truth behind his birth?

Signed!

Seriously, I agree, this never made much sense to me either. When I first plated FF7, Sephiroth's turn to madness was really sudden. I figured he must have had a history of mental problems, or always been a little unhinged, or something. But then CC proves me wrong, so like, what the hell? A couple days is a very short time for a perfectly normal person to go completely insane, just from reading.

EDIT - Look at the other replies, yeah, Jenova must have had something to do with it. Maybe Sephiroth reacted being so close to her for the first time or something, that's the only way his sudden turn to madness could make sense.

 

[Masamune]

For anyone who doubts Sephiroth was influenced by Jenova, you only have to examine why the Nibelheim experiments were called SEPHIROTH Copies. Hojo wanted to prove that if one's consciousness is weakened, Jenova's instincts can control it. Cloud, and the Reunion, confirmed this.

@Mako - That still sounds pretty tenuous to me. You could say Nibelheim foreshadowed his ego trip, but the circumstances changed after that incident. He hated mankind for betraying the Cetra, but later he doesn't have any allegiance with them anymore. In fact, he murders the last of their kind. His hatred towards Shinra makes sense, and he should have been satisfied destroying them. But his god complex was not rationalized or developed.


@ForceStealer - Thanks for raising that point. Sephiroth *is* badass. That - along with FFVII's iconic status - is probably the reason he's adored by many. I was making a different point. Yes, Sephiroth was mysterious and threatening, but later Compilation instalments, like the shampoo in CC, being manipulated by Genesis, and now dreaming about Cloud in the Lifestream, have emasculated that side of him. I still said that Sephiroth lacked character development.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Clearly Jenova had an influence. Definitely.

The circumstances changed, but not Sephiroth's ego or feelings of entitlement. That's shown clearly. He didn't just hate mankind for their betrayal of what he believed to be his race. He hated them because of their betrayal to him. He felt betrayed and angry at being made a monster. That's what his spiel about being created and saying he felt 'different' was about. His god complex is justified right here...

Cloud: Normal members of SOLDIER? You mean you're different? H…hey, Sephiroth!

Sephiroth: N…no…… …Was I?

Sephiroth draws his sword and kept slashing the containers.

Sephiroth: …Was I created this way too? Am I the same as all these monsters……

Cloud: …Sephiroth.

Sephiroth: You saw it! All of them…were humans…

Cloud: Humans!? No way!

Sephiroth: …I've always felt since I was small… That I was different from the
others. Special, in some way.

Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha…my sadness? What do I have to be sad about? I am the
chosen one. I have been chosen to be the leader of this Planet. I have orders
to take this planet back from you stupid people for the Cetra. What am I
supposed to be sad about?

Sephiroth: ...Ah, but I have. I'm far superior to the Ancients. I became a
traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients.
And soon, I will create the future.

Cloud: ...Aerith. This can't be real!

Sephiroth: Do not worry. Soon the girl will become part of the Planet's energy.
All that is left is to go North. The 'Promised Land' waits for me over the
snowy fields. There I will become a new being by uniting with the planet. As
will this girl......

Sephiroth is an egotistical existence who has always, always believed he was entitled to the planet due to his power and unique creation. Whether it be through the false impression he had of being a Cetra, or after realizing the truth, it's always been about him being superior to lesser humans. It is that pride, arrogance, and hate for lesser beings that fuels his desire for conquering the planet.

And I don't how giving Sephiroth a sense of humor and more human side, is emasculating him.

And his grudge against Cloud certainly doesn't do that either. Is Jagi emasculated for hating Kenshiro so much that he tries to trash his name all over the world, and dreams of Ken and his hate for him, and kills anyone who sees his true face? It's a common trope in fiction for the villain to have a personal and vindictive grudge against the protagonist. A "bond of hatred."

 

[megas_sephiroth]

For anyone who doubts Sephiroth was influenced by Jenova, you only have to examine why the Nibelheim experiments were called SEPHIROTH Copies. Hojo wanted to prove that if one's consciousness is weakened, Jenova's instincts can control it. Cloud, and the Reunion, confirmed this.

Yeah, I was always under the impression that she's the one in control. I think that is pretty clear when Kadaj tells Rufus that he can't bear the thought that Jenova may pick Sephiroth over him. I think that statemente alone proves who's behind tha whole let's use the planet as a vessel or the let's become one with the planet.

She clearly can control anyone who has her cells, why would Sephiroth be any different?

Plus, Sephiroth himself tells Cloud that it's something she already did, "long ago".

 

[Makoeyes987]

....No dude. Will you stop saying Jenova was in control? Sephiroth is not being puppeted. HE is the puppet master. Kadaj thought Jenova was the one telling him what to do because Sephiroth made him that way. Kadaj is a creation of Sephiroth, not Jenova. They are extensions of his will. They have no Jenova cells in them, and the reason they feel Jenova is the one they must find and obey, is because it aids in Sephiroth achieving his rebirth. It's a ruse to make them have the Reunion which he uses for his own benefit to return from the dead.

She can't control Sephiroth because his will is too strong.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

....No dude. Will you stop saying Jenova was in control? Sephiroth is not being puppeted. HE is the puppet master. Kadaj thought Jenova was the one telling him what to do because Sephiroth made him that way. Kadaj is a creation of Sephiroth, not Jenova. They are extensions of his will. They have no Jenova cells in them, and the reason they feel Jenova is the one they must find and obey, is because it aids in Sephiroth achieving his rebirth. It's a ruse to make them have the Reunion which he uses for his own benefit to return from the dead.

She can't control Sephiroth because his will is too strong.

Lol, I'm not a dude...

And honestly I think you're giving Sephiroth too much credit. After all, if not for the Jenova cells he would be only human and not the almighty warrior he is. Also, and this is coming from a diehard Sephiroth fan, I don't think his will is that strong, otherwise he would have remained as he was in CC, instead of believing all the crap Hojo fed him...

 

[Makoeyes987]

Hojo didn't feed him anything. He found out the truth himself.

And since you can't accept me saying it, here it is from the Ultimania Omega of FFVII.

***Sephiroth's will and Jenova's will*** (Page 53)
The Sephiroth clones seen in various locations continue gathering for the
Reunion. Seemingly, the will of Jenova as a human is the result of it
consuming Sephiroth's spirit; in actuality, Sephiroth is controlling Jenova.

(Accompanying screenshot caption)
Sephiroth's voice is heard through his "mother," Jenova, as applied through
its cells in the Sephiroth Clones.

**Jenova Relation 2: The Reunion* (005.1B)
Due to its amazing regeneration capabilities, Jenova's divided cells reunite
to become one again.

5 years ago, Sephiroth fell into the Lifestream holding the head of Jenova,
going to the Northern Crater, where the Planet's energy is concentrated, and
where he would begin the Reunion -- and assuring his restoration -- by
focusing through Jenova's cells. This regeneration was to be carried out by
way of the Reunion, as the scattered Sephiroth Clones (-->P.213) would begin
migrating toward the Northern Crater.

(Accompanying screenshot caption 1)
The Reunion is an ability of Jenova, but Sephiroth instructs the Sephiroth
Clones in the role of their master.

**Jenova Relation 3: The Sephiroth Clones** (005.1C)
5 years ago, immediately after Sephiroth fell into the Mt. Nibel mako reactor,
Jenova's main body -- which had been left behind -- was utilized by Hojo for
an experiment. This plan -- which Hojo intended to use to prove his Jenova
Reunion Theory -- was called "the Sephiroth Clones Project."

Also noteworthy is Sephiroth's unique case. Until the secret of his birth was
known, he had legendary strength of which he was proud, but 5 years ago, he
began walking a different road from that of humans. However, he was unwilling
to be placed under Jenova's control and became the leader himself, with its
actions falling under his control in the end. This fact resulted in Sephiroth
gaining a new sense of strength.

I don't know how much more clearer it can get.

 

[Dark and Divine]

Also, and this is coming from a diehard Sephiroth fan, I don't think his will is that strong, otherwise he would have remained as he was in CC, instead of believing all the crap Hojo fed him...

First of all, a little correction...

The reports in the Shinra basement were Gast's, not Hojo's.

Second, the fact that Sephiroth went insane in Nibelheim had nothing to do with his will.

It was more due to, for instance, the meeting with Elfe wich planted the seed of doubt in Sephiroth's mind, having one of his best friends die, while the other turned against him and growing discontent with the company that raised him. The discovery of the truth about his birth was the last drop is Sephiroth's fall into insanity.

What i'm saying is that Sephrioth went insane because of thsese several events in his life and not because he hade a weak mind.

His will has more to do with his spiritual power, wich allowed him to resist death, dominate Jenova's will/mind and body and use her/it as his puppet and, cause Geostigma through Jenova's cells, etc.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

I never read Ultimania, what I'm telling you is what I gathered from the games... Anyway, I was always under the impression that Jenova was the one in control and it kinda always made sense to me since she's the alien and Sephiroth the human...

 

[Makoeyes987]

The game pretty much says Sephiroth is in control if you read the quotes from Hojo I posted.

I thought the Clones would begin to gather at
Midgar where Jenova is stored. But my predictions were not entirely correct.
Jenova itself began to move away from the Shinra Building. But being a genius
that I am, I soon figured it out. You see it was all Sephiroth's doing.
Sephiroth is not just content to diffuse his will into the Lifestream; he wants
to manipulate the Clones itself...Both
Jenova's Reunion and Sephiroth's will! They won't be diffused into the
Lifestream, but gathered here! Mwa, haa, ha,......

And Sephiroth is not a human. He's an alien, human hybrid. He's far from ordinary.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

The "it was all Sephiroth's doing" refers to the clones and the Reunion, not the whole of it, meaning the "let's become one with the planet"...

He was going to leave ShinRa, that much was decided before he even left for Nibleheim, what reason would he have to destroy the planet? I think he was all to willing to believe the only being to whom he had some kind of connection. Maybe none of them is the mastermind and they're using each other, but he clearly states in Nibleheim that he is going to take the planet back for mother...

What I mean to say is that the inspiration always comes from something that Jenova did or intended to do...

That said, I'm not insisting on this to annoy anyone...

 

[Makoeyes987]

The whole of it, IS Sephiroth. That's the main plot point that would dictate whether Sephiroth or Jenova was in control. Clearly, the fact Sephiroth is ursurping Jenova's own Reunion means he's the one controlling her as well as the Sephiroth clones.

And yeah, Sephiroth was confused because he actually thought Jenova was a cetra and was going to take it back. But when he fell into the Lifestream and learned the truth, he realized he was the one in control and did things for himself. He's not confused about his origin anymore. His inspiration came from his ego and god complex.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

But in CC, which depicts his normal self, he doesn't seem to be the ego trip kind of guy... In fact, he seems to pretty much not care... I was actually surprised with his decision to leave ShinRa, I mean if it was for Angeal and Genesis, shouldn't he have made the decision sooner?

Maybe they should have made him a bit arrogant in CC to justify the god complex, if there is one...

 

[Masamune]

I'll answer to your other stuff later, Mako. Coursework. ;P

But Sephiroth planning to leave Shinra (in CC) can be explained here.

 

[Makoeyes987]

His god complex stemmed from him knowing the truth and descending from becoming a hero. The bitter irony that he became such a terror for the planet would be lost if he was already a jackass to begin with. That doesn't make any sense. If the truth was what shook him to the core and made him turn his back towards humanity, why would they show him already having his back towards being a hero and shit before hand?