Sephiroth: What the fuck happened?

[megas_sephiroth]

Because then his personality wouldn't have made a complete 180º... Even after his conversation with Genesis in the reactor he seems more or less balanced...

 

[Makoeyes987]

The whole point IS his personality does a complete 180. He isn't the same man anymore. He abandons his humanity and thus forsakes what he once was to become an entirely new being. The dramatic shift in his character would lack the narrative punch if he was just an asshole all along and now he's just going to be a planetary one.

What would be the point in Zack being shocked at Sephiroth's dramatic, and negative change if Sephiroth was already a bastard to begin with?

 

[megas_sephiroth]

The whole point IS his personality does a complete 180. He isn't the same man anymore. He abandons his humanity and thus forsakes what he once was to become an entirely new being. The dramatic shift in his character would lack the narrative punch if he was just an asshole all along and now he's just going to be a planetary one.

What would be the point in Zack being shocked at Sephiroth's dramatic, and negative change if Sephiroth was already a bastard to begin with?

But it would certainly add more credibility to the character, being a bit arrogant does not make anyone a bastard... And bastard or not, I think Zack would still be pretty shocked, I mean, it's not every day that someone wakes up and decides: "Well, today I'm gonna become one with the planet. Yup, that's what I'm gonna do."

Or maybe he was just in need of a job, since he was gonna leave SOLDIER.

By the way, the banner in your signature rocks!

 

[Makoeyes987]

...Then where's the surprise in Sephiroth's turn to villainy if it's something that was hinted at before? You're not making any sense. It's not about credibility, it's about surprise and irony. That the most celebrated hero suddenly became the greatest threat to the planet. The irony and shock would be lost if Sephiroth was already a fucker to begin with. You don't seem to understand that.

And I thought we already established that Sephiroth was clearly not sane during Nibelheim, obviously. Hence him turning violent and fully embracing his Jenova lineage that way.

And thanks, a friend made it for me from the last ACC trailer.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

...Then where's the surprise in Sephiroth's turn to villainy if it's something that was hinted at before? You're not making any sense. It's not about credibility, it's about surprise and irony. That the most celebrated hero suddenly became the greatest threat to the planet. The irony and shock would be lost if Sephiroth was already a fucker to begin with. You don't seem to understand that.

And I thought we already established that Sephiroth was clearly not sane during Nibelheim, obviously. Hence him turning violent and fully embracing his Jenova lineage that way.

And thanks, a friend made it for me from the last ACC trailer.

It's exactly what I'm trying to tell you, adding a mild negative trait to a character doesn't necessarily make him a bastard and it wouldn't spoil the surprise or the irony.

And come to think of it, he was a bit arrogant when he was fighting Angeal and Genesis.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Sephiroth already has imperfections in his character. He's cold, distant, and impersonal. He is not a "nice guy." Most people are intimidated, put off, or afraid of his cold, stand offish persona. So saying he doesn't have any negative traits isn't true. He's also very reclusive and mistrusting.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

I wasn't talking about anyone in particular when I said that adding a mild negative trait to a character doesn't make him a bastard.

I agree with you on that, he has absolutely no social skills and he is not a nice guy. What I'm trying to say is that his arrogance certainly helps explain why he developped a god complex...

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well yeah, verily.

Arrogance would lead to that.

 

[Arianna]

I agree with you on that, he has absolutely no social skills and he is not a nice guy. What I'm trying to say is that his arrogance certainly helps explain why he developped a god complex...

I will not dispute anything you're saying here, as I totally agree; but, I wished to add, I think a lot of confusion goes into this as well (at least, at first).

Going on the first sentence you place here, no - Sephiroth is not really adept with social skills.

Honestly, I think Crisis Core shows us that he can be a nice guy, even if it's slight and/or awkward. I think the part in Junon shows us that he definitely keeps up with the gossip.

I swear, he may have his mother's looks (with some of his father's too) but he's definitely got his father's - psychosis?

Plus, he probably didn't have a proper social upbringing - though this is all speculation. He had interaction with other children, as he states this himself, but who knows what it was like, how such interaction was handled by the adults around him, and how much he was allowed.

Shinra kept him as a killing machine, not as a social butterfly.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

He was going to leave ShinRa, that much was decided before he even left for Nibleheim,

I'm just popping into the conversation, but back when he decided to leave Shinra before the Nibelhiem mission, I don't think that was under any hostile pretenses. He just wanted to...leave Shinra. Leave the military, leave being ordered around, leave all of those things.

The questions I have are

1. Would Shinra have let him?
2. What was Sephiroth planning on doing?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Shinra probably would have let him "retire" because they certainly couldn't really stop him (with him being super strong and all) but they'd have kept him under lifetime surveillance to guard their secrets of SOLDIER, Shinra and the Jenova Project.

Furthermore, if he DID talk they'd probably kill the person who learned the truth, and if necessary, Sephiroth. With the help of perhaps Deepground.

As for what Sephiroth would do...well, he always was a fan of basket weaving

 

[Dashell]

Furthermore, if he DID talk they'd probably kill the person who learned the truth, and if necessary, Sephiroth. With the help of perhaps Deepground.

That ... is the makings of a kick ass story.

 

[BWAngel]

Shinra probably would have let him "retire" because they certainly couldn't really stop him (with him being super strong and all) but they'd have kept him under lifetime surveillance to guard their secrets of SOLDIER, Shinra and the Jenova Project.

Isn't he technically ShinRa property, since he was the product of an experiment one of their employees started? I don't think they would let him 'retire' so easily.

Furthermore, if he DID talk they'd probably kill the person who learned the truth, and if necessary, Sephiroth. With the help of perhaps Deepground.

Now that would make an excellent 'what if' story. I would love to see him face off with Tsviets.

As for what Sephiroth would do...well, he always was a fan of basket weaving

I could see him doing that or painting or sculpting or being a chocobo farmer or even a teacher to those he believe are worthy of learning his talents.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Isn't he technically ShinRa property, since he was the product of an experiment one of their employees started? I don't think they would let him 'retire' so easily.

Considering how powerful and influential Sephiroth is, it would be more trouble than it's worth to try to take him down if they could easily just let him retire under non invasive surveillance.

 

[BWAngel]

Considering how powerful and influential Sephiroth is, it would be more trouble than it's worth to try to take him down if they could easily just let him retire under non invasive surveillance.

True, but still I don't think they would let him go that easily. I mean he is there poster boy, who else would they get to do it (aside of Zack)?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

It's not quite that simple as that, I think.

Personally, Pre Nibelhiem Sephiroth is more than capable of being killed and his head mounted on a plate. There's Deepground, other members of SOLDIER (other 1st Classes), and the regular Shinra Army (and no, Sephiroth couldn't beat the entire Shinra army by himself). If he needed being killed, Shinra could do it.

It's just a matter of what it's worth to do so. First of all, Sephiroth is strong as fuck. It took a battalion to take down Zack, and while I personally don't believe that Zack killed them all (or most), the fact remains that he took quite a few men down with him. Unless Shinra acts extremely quick and decisively about taking Sephiroth down with minimal casualties, they're going to have a bloodbath on their hands.

Also, Sephiroth is a huge propaganda machine for Shinra and the source of a lot of their support. Sephiroth is most of the moral backbone of the Shinra military as well, so even after they took him out, it would be a crushing blow and a worldwide embarrassment to Shinra that their top dog went 'rogue' and had to be killed by his own employer. They were able to erase Genesis off the map because he wasn't as popular, but it would be impossible to cover up any event with Sephiroth. Word would get around and everyone would go buck wild left and right. Shinra couldn't handle that.

It's just too much trouble.

 

[Arianna]

Personally, Pre Nibelhiem Sephiroth is more than capable of being killed and his head mounted on a plate. There's Deepground, other members of SOLDIER (other 1st Classes), and the regular Shinra Army (and no, Sephiroth couldn't beat the entire Shinra army by himself). If he needed being killed, Shinra could do it.

It's just a matter of what it's worth to do so. First of all, Sephiroth is strong as fuck. It took a battalion to take down Zack, and while I personally don't believe that Zack killed them all (or most), the fact remains that he took quite a few men down with him. Unless Shinra acts extremely quick and decisively about taking Sephiroth down with minimal casualties, they're going to have a bloodbath on their hands.

I agree with your other point as well, that Sephiroth's talents and skills were used as propaganda for the Shinra company as a whole, but I disagree with your assessment of Sephiroth pre-Nibelheim. I am not sure if Shinra would have an 'Anti-Sephiroth' agenda should he leave.

Loz in Advent Children (Complete) has great strength, in which we knew Sephiroth had from the original game, but also great speed, in which we witnessed Sephiroth's abilities

Spoiler

in one of the DMW memory recalls regarding Sephiroth in Crisis Core

. He took out a whole rogue Shinra group in about a few seconds.

So, I feel that Sephiroth would have the upper hand if Shinra would try to eliminate him; now, against Deep Ground's tsviets - that's another question. I'm not sure who'd be bested. The tsviets seem to have some similar talents to Sephiroth...

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Don't get me wrong, I don't Shinra would give Seph a hard time about leaving, but that's for a multitude of reasons. I'm just saying hypothetically, if they did.

So you think that Pre Nibel Sephiroth could beat the forces of

-The Turks

-The Shinra Army (which could very well be hundreds of thousands of troops, or at least tens of thousands)

-Shinra's Armored Division (their robots and whatnot)

-SOLDIER, 1st 2nd and 3rd forces

-And finally as a trump card, Deepground.

You think Sephiroth could take the possibly/probable combined forces of all of those people?

 

[Arianna]

So you think that Pre Nibel Sephiroth could beat the forces of

-The Turks

-The Shinra Army (which could very well be hundreds of thousands of troops, or at least tens of thousands)

-Shinra's Armored Division (their robots and whatnot)

-SOLDIER, 1st 2nd and 3rd forces

-And finally as a trump card, Deepground.

You think Sephiroth could take the possibly/probable combined forces of all of those people?

Quite possibly, with his speed and power combined. I'm not going to say it would be simple, but yeah - I think he could.

Of course, you have a point with throwing in the Turks - who would be armed with missiles and other technology...

As I said, the Tsviets would possibly pose a challenge, but I am not sure.

Also, I question just how many first class members there were save Zack, Angeal, Genesis, and Sephiroth.

You could be right, it could be possible - but I'm saying that my bet would still be on Sephiroth.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I don't see how one guy, one mortal guy could take out tens of thousands of people on his own. Especially considering when said same guy was taken out by less than a dozen people at a later date when he was exponentially stronger.

I just do not see it.

Please, explain yourself. Explain your reasoning.

Of course, you have a point with throwing in the Turks - who would be armed with missiles and other technology...

You do realize that the entirety of Shinra's armed forces has access with missiles and other technology? Do you realize just how powerful military capability is?

 

[Arianna]

I don't see how one guy, one mortal guy could take out tens of thousands of people on his own. Especially considering when said same guy was taken out by less than a dozen people at a later date when he was exponentially stronger. ... You do realize that the entirety of Shinra's armed forces has access with missiles and other technology? Do you realize just how powerful military capability is?

Thing is, Sephiroth is not 100% human. His genetics were merged with Jenova while he was forming in the womb - Jenova, an alien being from somewhere beyond the planet FFVII takes place on, who even the Cetra could not destroy, only incarcerate. Even his mother, Lucrecia, says that the Jenova inside of her (from Sephiroth at said fetal stage) won't let her die; that she knows he cannot die so easily. Yes, Sephiroth is mortal, but his life is much more hardy than any human, even other First Class Soldiers.

Now, okay, yeah - you got a point there: tens of thousands of people... I can give you that; Sephiroth is partly human, and he has human needs, I'm sure of it. Still, his speed must be so that he'd be but a blur in a human's line of sight, in the blink of an eye one's life would be over if he intended to kill;

Spoiler

he took down a dragon in Before Crisis

, with a single blow I might add. While I give you that it would be a challenge, I do believe Sephiroth would have the advantage in most situations Shinra could deal him.

Your point is good, and I'm not trying to say you have none, but I am saying that I think it would take Shinra throwing everything at him at once to gain the upper hand. Even then, I do believe Sephiroth wouldn't give up without a fight, and I think it would be quite a bloody (if not gorey) scene to behold. Personally, I see the only ones with any hope of neutralizing Sephiroth's attacks are the same two men who were his best friends; sad thing is, one is dead and the other probably on-the-fence mentally as (I feel) Sephiroth was before Nibelheim.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Thing is, Sephiroth is not 100% human. His genetics were merged with Jenova while he was forming in the womb - Jenova, an alien being from somewhere beyond the planet FFVII takes place on, who even the Cetra could not destroy, only incarcerate. Even his mother, Lucrecia, says that the Jenova inside of her (from Sephiroth at said fetal stage) won't let her die; that she knows he cannot die so easily. Yes, Sephiroth is mortal, but his life is much more hardy than any human, even other First Class Soldiers.

I'm not saying he's a pushover, but he CAN be killed, and already has been. Twice, and not only that, when he was much, much stronger than he was before Nibelhiem. Hell, even though Cloud didn't kill him, he pretty much handed him his ass without even having to fight him. He can be put down, that much we know.

Now, okay, yeah - you got a point there: tens of thousands of people... I can give you that; Sephiroth is partly human, and he has human needs, I'm sure of it. Still, his speed must be so that he'd be but a blur in a human's line of sight, in the blink of an eye one's life would be over if he intended to kill; (SPOILER) he took down a dragon in Before Crisis, with a single blow I might add. While I give you that it would be a challenge, I do believe Sephiroth would have the advantage in most situations Shinra could deal him.

Blink of the eye, yadda yadda. We know how fast he is, but he isn't omnipotent. He can't be in more than one place at one time, he can't travel at lightspeed, and he only has two arms. He's limited by physics and his human form.

I am saying that I think it would take Shinra throwing everything at him at once to gain the upper hand.

Shinra throwing everything at once would have him fucking dead. Pre Nibel Sephiroth simply isn't that strong to just outlive everything. I mean, the logic is simple. A little more than half a dozen people killed him when he was much stronger, and even later, he was killed in a one on one fight.

It would be a grand fight, but the Turks? Thousands of soldiers? SOLDIER? Deepground? Sephiroth is done. Even if they don't throw everything they have at him, they'll wear him down eventually. He is not a god. He's the strongest person alive, but he's only one man.

 

[Arianna]

Shinra throwing everything at once would have him fucking dead. Pre Nibel Sephiroth simply isn't that strong to just outlive everything. I mean, the logic is simple. A little more than half a dozen people killed him when he was much stronger, and even later, he was killed in a one on one fight.

It would be a grand fight, but the Turks? Thousands of soldiers? SOLDIER? Deepground? Sephiroth is done. Even if they don't throw everything they have at him, they'll wear him down eventually. He is not a god. He's the strongest person alive, but he's only one man.

I see what you are trying to say.

Hmmmmm... He was using a lot of power to reform himself from the LifeStream. Technically, he was a spirit, dead in body. I don't know, I considered him helped along by the black materia, and sort of weakened due to his powers being spread out with making a new body, controlling Jenova's body, as well as trying to lead Cloud and the others to him. This is my thought on the matter.

True, Sephiroth's not a god, and yes, he is only one man.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well, however it adds up, the Sephiroth fought by the party at the end of FF7 is definitely stronger than Pre Nibel Sephiroth, and the Sephiroth that Cloud fought alone in AC(C) is definitely stronger than anything else, anywhere.

I mean, I'm not trying to crush your arguments/dreams, but people seem to have this perception of Sephiroth as some sort of unstoppable soul crushing, immortal, impossible to be beat god, when at least as far as Pre Nibel was concerned, he was still a mortal.

Not very human, and certainly the strongest man alive, but still mortal. His power as the best is mostly relative to other individuals. He's stronger than other people by themselves, and yes, even many other people at once, but he's not stronger than everyone at once or everyone over a period of time.

Think about his strengths relative to the fiction he's in; unlike say, Id from Xenogears who can alter reality at will, or Nyx from Persona who is IS immortal because she is a concept, rather than a person or a being (fyi, both characters would stomp Seph's face in), Sephiroth doesn't have any powers like that; he's just really, really strong and good at fighting. He can be taken down.

 

[Arianna]

I mean, I'm not trying to crush your arguments/dreams, but people seem to have this perception of Sephiroth as some sort of unstoppable soul crushing, immortal, impossible to be beat god, when at least as far as Pre Nibel was concerned, he was still a mortal.

I know it's just a debate on a character, so don't worry about that. I appreciate the sentiment.

Still, I do not have all the information to back up my statements, and they are also my speculation as to what I've seen. As well, I just am not sure, 'cause you do raise an interesting question - if everything was thrown at Sephiroth, what would be the outcome?

My thoughts are torn, and so I really can't answer you the best way possible. A part of me wants to conceed and say 'you're right' but the stubborn part of me is fighting and not wanting to give in - 'cause I still say it'd be a hell of a fight.

This is the reason why I'm vague in my answers. Perhaps I should have left my answer as 'I don't know'.

EDIT: I never played XenoGears or Persona, so I don't know who those characters are.