Sephiroth: What the fuck happened?

[Cat Rage Room]

if everything was thrown at Sephiroth, what would be the outcome?

Well, short answer; he'd be dead. Long answer, between the tens of thousands of regular soldiers, SOLDIER, which is probably at least 100-200 people strong, the Shinra mechanized division, and the Turks, he'd just be...killed. Yeah, he'd get a lot of people on the way, and it definitely wouldn't be one sided, but CC shows he can be wounded to the point of staggering around like a retard. And that's one, untrained guy with a lucky shot. Now, it wouldn't be that easy, but eventually, eventually, he'd go down.

But like I said, Seph is strong, so it wouldn't be worth the effort to do so.

 

[megas_sephiroth]

I don't think he would tell ShinRa he was leaving, I think he would do it like Genesis... As for what he would do next, well, maybe join Avalanche, since their main purpose was to destroy ShinRa...

 

[Cthulhu]

I do wonder, at Mog's posts, why Shinra didn't try all that - throwing all their stuff at Seph, I mean, and instead decided to just get the largest cannon ever to have been created, move it to Midgar, hook it up to half a dozen of Mako reactors for a power level of over nine thousaaand, and fire a giant blast his way (or at least that's what I remember of it) instead of sending in the military / soldier / turks / robots / tsviets / Jesus.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Because Sephiroth put up a force field that no one could penetrate

 

[Masamune]

Sephiroth is an egotistical existence who has always, always believed he was entitled to the planet due to his power and unique creation. Whether it be through the false impression he had of being a Cetra, or after realizing the truth, it's always been about him being superior to lesser humans. It is that pride, arrogance, and hate for lesser beings that fuels his desire for conquering the planet.

We weren't given any indication of his god complex until the Nibelheim incident, and even then his mind was confused and Jenovafied. He was cold and mysterious, but there was no sign he wanted everything for himself. Had they explored this before and after Nibelheim, maybe we'd understand his motives.

And I don't how giving Sephiroth a sense of humor and more human side, is emasculating him.

It can work, if handled carefully and doesn't infringe on the character's status. But Sephiroth being manipulated by Genesis, and conveniently planning to leave Shinra before the Nibelhem incident, wasn't exactly subtle.

And his grudge against Cloud certainly doesn't do that either. Is Jagi emasculated for hating Kenshiro so much that he tries to trash his name all over the world, and dreams of Ken and his hate for him, and kills anyone who sees his true face? It's a common trope in fiction for the villain to have a personal and vindictive grudge against the protagonist. A "bond of hatred."

Sephiroth's "feelings" for Cloud are self-explanatory. We know he hates him with a passion and lives for revenge. Having Sephiroth dream about Cloud in the Lifestream, as well as the phrase Hito highlighted that was rather fruity, fuels the yaoi connotations of their rivalry and caused more amusement than anything else. It's the same for the fanclub and shampoo thing in CC. I know that's minor stuff, but it all adds up.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ahh, back to our discussion

Well we aren't given any indication of his god complex before hand because it didn't surface until Sephiroth's mind fractured and he began to hate humanity. When Sephiroth discovered his whole life was a life and that he was an experiment, something shattered within his psyche and he in turn lost his sanity and began to delve deeper into his own hatred and madness. Thereby, he fell from grace and became the villain he is now. Although Sephiroth wasn't being controlled by Jenova, her cells and his madness all exerted an influence that in turn made him turn his back towards his comrades.

It's kind of like how Shin eventually became the asshole villain thanks to Jagi whispering poison in his ear, and making him take Kenshiro's girl for himself.

I don't know why you think that's such an infringement. A lot of fans have built up Sephiroth as this invincible, untouchable, and perfect character, when they conveniently forget he suffered from a mental breakdown and was literally terrified when Cloud opposed him. The whole point of his portrayal in CC was to show Sephiroth as human and vulnerable. Even though he's super human and incredibly strong, he still had a human heart and wasn't always the cold, empty and heartless figure we saw in FFVII. They *wanted* to show Sephiroth as a vulnerable person here.

And Sephiroth's not dreaming of Cloud in the lifestream, he's thinking about him. It's part of his way of ensuring his rebirth. He had to grasp at something that would allow him to keep his soul, and the only thought and emotion he could think of that was strong enough was his hatred of Cloud. It's no different than Jagi living for revenge on Kenshiro.

And hey, yaoi fangirls are an important demographic here

 

[Arianna]

As for Sephiroth, he had a very strong body but a very fragile mind.

Of course, it doesn't help that he probably (speculating, of course) wasn't given much to stand on, mentally.

... instead of sending in the military / soldier / turks / robots / tsviets / Jesus.

Jesus? LOL

 

[Ⓐaron]

What kind of irks me about the Ultimania’s statement that Sephiroth is in control of Jenova is that yes, Sephiroth may be managing the manipulation of everyone involved, but in doing so he’s doing exactly what Jenova tried to do two thousand years before – destroy all the Cetra, summon Meteor, etc. I’m certainly not going to dispute that eventually Sephiroth’s will diverges from Jenova’s, but it's rather convenient for Jenova that after his madness sets in, his agenda becomes exactly what she had been planning anyway. Maybe Sephiroth after Nibelheim has the strongest will of the planet, but before that point would he have been immune to manipulation? I’m not aware of anything in the Ultimania that rules this out.

and fwiw I agree with Masamune that Sephiroth’s background, at least in FFVII, is way underdeveloped for someone who’s apparently intended to be the main villain. I haven’t played Crisis Core yet so maybe that helps but yeah, a lot of other RPG villains have much better fleshed-out reasons for their insanity, which I guess is one reason I find Sephiroth somewhat overrated.

 

[Arianna]

What kind of irks me about the Ultimania’s statement that Sephiroth is in control of Jenova is that yes, Sephiroth may be managing the manipulation of everyone involved, but in doing so he’s doing exactly what Jenova tried to do two thousand years before – destroy all the Cetra, summon Meteor, etc. I’m certainly not going to dispute that eventually Sephiroth’s will diverges from Jenova’s, but it's rather convenient for Jenova that after his madness sets in, his agenda becomes exactly what she had been planning anyway. Maybe Sephiroth after Nibelheim has the strongest will of the planet, but before that point would he have been immune to manipulation? I’m not aware of anything in the Ultimania that rules this out.

That's what I've been trying to say! Well, at least, way back when...

I think that Sephiroth's break down left him wide open to his Jenovian instincts, which were to destroy. If it's truly his own will, that's the only explaination I can think of.

I too have a problem with that explaination (though I accept it since it's from the creators.)

Who knows, perhaps Jenova - and I'm sorry, 'cause I think Mako Eyes has tried to get me to understand this already, but it's eluding me - is very weak, but still collecting herself/hisself/itself, slowly but surely healing?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Jenova never tried to summon Meteor, and all she did was kill people.

Sephiroth's ambitions while on the surface are similar, but he's doing it not just for the sake of destruction but for the sake of attaining godhood and mastery over the entire planetary cycle.

Jenova was nothing but a killer. And I dunno, I found his motivations and backstory to be quite clear for a villain.

 

[Ⓐaron]

I thought I remembered her at least trying to kill everyone on the planet. Maybe her methodology wasn’t summoning Meteor but the intended end result was the same.

And yeah he may have different reasonings for doing things but his ambitions would still end up serving the same outcome, that’s my point.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Jenova's nothing but a killer. She's like a rampaging yet cunning monster. She had no overall plan or purpose. She was just a shapeshifting scourge on the planet.

I think Jenova and Sephiroth both have the same instinct of killing and destruction but Sephiroth makes it something more purposeful and selfish, while Jenova was just too instinctual and base to plan something out like he could.

You could say Sephiroth takes it to a whole new level.

 

[Ⓐaron]

That’s fair enough, but my point is Sephiroth doing all this stuff only furthers Jenova’s base instincts, which is to kill. It’s just convenient for Jenova that the person who ends up “in control” of her is only doing things that further her natural inclinations anyway, and I find it hard to believe that she didn’t have a hand in inducing his madness.

 

[Arianna]

Jenova's nothing but a killer. She's like a rampaging yet cunning monster. She had no overall plan or purpose. She was just a shapeshifting scourge on the planet.

As for Jenova, that's because there's not a backstory on her.

(Yeah, we need Case of Jenova. )

Anyhow, we really can't say she has no purpose...

One could say the very same thing about Chaos, but it's only 'cause we know Grimoire and Lucrecia's studies that we know he's got purpose.

That’s fair enough, but my point is Sephiroth doing all this stuff only furthers Jenova’s base instincts, which is to kill. It’s just convenient for Jenova that the person who ends up “in control” of her is only doing things that further her natural inclinations anyway, and I find it hard to believe that she didn’t have a hand in inducing his madness.

I agree at least 98%.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Jenova definitely had a hand in pushing Sephiroth off the deep end, we know this. But in the end Sephiroth was the one in control of his choice and actions, when Jenova tried to exert control over everything via Reunion. Sephiroth instead usurped control over Jenova and its instincts, using it further his own ambitions and become stronger.

 

[Ⓐaron]

fair enough. I just don’t see Sephiroth becoming a villain without Jenova. Obviously there were other factors that helped push him over the edge as well, but I don’t think even all of them combined would have been enough to make him into such a monster.

And let’s face it, “an alien did it lulz” isn’t exactly the best reasoning an RPG has ever presented for a character’s insanity.

 

[Makoeyes987]

If Sephiroth never found out the truth and came into contact with Jenova he probably wouldn't have become a villain. CC even shows Sephiroth reacting to Jenova when he starts doubting himself. His cells and mind resonate with Jenova and he sees flashes of her in his mind.

When Sephiroth became mentally weak and unstable, the Jenova in him awoke and he began treading the path of death and destruction. He ended up becoming a terror. All the other shit ontop of him realizing the truth and being a spawn of Jenova was enough to finally tip him over, so to speak.

 

[Max Payne]

Jeez mako, you make it sound like he was a direct product of jenova.

 

[Makoeyes987]

He's the closest to Jenova any human has ever been

 

[Max Payne]

he still isn't a "spawn of jenova" fgt.

 

[Makoeyes987]

He sure thinks of himself as one though

 

[Max Payne]

well he was wrong.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well it's not like he has anyone else to think of as his mother. Arguably, he got the most important things from his relationship with Jenova than any of his human parents.

And isn't that what parentage is all about?

 

[Max Payne]

Jenova did not teach sephiroth anything, nuture or raise him.

So you're still wrong, and so is he.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Jenova taught him how to grow a wing and hate humanity

And also piece together his broken body and control a bunch hooded folk to do your bidding. I'd say that's a really valuable lesson, wouldn't you?