Sephiroth: What the fuck happened?

[Max Payne]

Fail. Jenova did no parenting for Sefiros.

 

[Masamune]

Ahh, back to our discussion

Well we aren't given any indication of his god complex before hand because it didn't surface until Sephiroth's mind fractured and he began to hate humanity. When Sephiroth discovered his whole life was a life and that he was an experiment, something shattered within his psyche and he in turn lost his sanity and began to delve deeper into his own hatred and madness. Thereby, he fell from grace and became the villain he is now. Although Sephiroth wasn't being controlled by Jenova, her cells and his madness all exerted an influence that in turn made him turn his back towards his comrades.

It's kind of like how Shin eventually became the asshole villain thanks to Jagi whispering poison in his ear, and making him take Kenshiro's girl for himself.

That isn't the same scenario. Shin already loved Yuria but he lacked the initiative to take her from Ken, until Jagi gave him a shove. Sephiroth wasn't a repressed megalomaniac before the Nibelheim incident.

Sephiroth's scenario sounds poorly structured. He goes crazy, rages against humanity, and then decides he wants to become one with the Lifestream and blow-up the world.

I don't know why you think that's such an infringement. A lot of fans have built up Sephiroth as this invincible, untouchable, and perfect character, when they conveniently forget he suffered from a mental breakdown and was literally terrified when Cloud opposed him. The whole point of his portrayal in CC was to show Sephiroth as human and vulnerable. Even though he's super human and incredibly strong, he still had a human heart and wasn't always the cold, empty and heartless figure we saw in FFVII. They *wanted* to show Sephiroth as a vulnerable person here.

I understand the intention of CC, but it's the execution that's the problem.

Look at it this way: The revelation in Nibelheim, along with Jenova's presence, was enough to send Sephiroth into disarray. Having Genesis at the centre of it adds insult to injury. Do you see what I'm saying? Not only is Sephiroth horrified at the truth and disturbed by Jenova, but now he's also getting zinged by his jealous rival.

And Sephiroth's not dreaming of Cloud in the lifestream, he's thinking about him. It's part of his way of ensuring his rebirth. He had to grasp at something that would allow him to keep his soul, and the only thought and emotion he could think of that was strong enough was his hatred of Cloud. It's no different than Jagi living for revenge on Kenshiro.

Except Kenshiro & Jagi don't have yaoi undertones, and Jagi doesn't sound like he's trying to seduce Kenshiro in battle most of the time! And any attempt to insinuate otherwise will be met by my wrath!

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ahh, fair enough point. It's not the same.

But with Sephiroth's snapping and turn against humanity, we know Jenova played a part in his descent from grace. And it's not really that poorly written. Plenty of villains turn evil for much less of a reason. Hell, Harvey Dent became an insane villain all because acid got splashed in his face during a trial. It's not uncommon at all for villains to turn to the dark side once something traumatic and life changing happens to them. Same goes for Anakin Skywalker, and the countless other evildoers who were once good and then finally got "pushed over the edge."

And I'm sorry but why is that a bad thing? The only way I could see it as bad, is if you're a protective Sephiroth fan. But it doesn't really change much and adds a rather ironic element that for all the tormenting and manipulation he does to Cloud, in the past, he was at the other end of it as well. It's darkly humorous and ironic.

LMAO fair enough. But again, think of the demographic

 

[Ⓐaron]

Hell, Harvey Dent became an insane villain all because acid got splashed in his face during a trial.

and his finacé was murdered, but yeah, fair point.

Same goes for Anakin Skywalker, and the countless other evildoers who were once good and then finally got "pushed over the edge."

Anakin was an ass to begin with tbh.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Was his fiance murdered though, originally in the comics? If I remember my comics correctly it was originally just from the acid splash during the trial of the crime boss Maroni. Later in "The Long Halloween" they added the whole fiancee angle. But I mean really, villains have turned evil for much less and all. And finding out your whole entire life is a lie is pretty major. Especially when his genes and cells have been spliced with a murderous, sadistic alien.

And yeah he was, but still

 

[Ⓐaron]

it’s the alien that pushes it for me into absurd territory. I probably wouldn’t mind it so much if it wasn’t such a blatant copy of both FFIV’s mind control and FFVI’s magitek experiments.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's really not the same thing as that.

For Kefka, he became evil directly BECAUSE of the Magitek infusion process. Something in the Esper and technology broke his brain and he became a psychotic person.

Golbez was being directly mind controlled and puppeted by Zemus.

For Sephiroth, it was the revelation that his life, his "family," and his dedication were nothing more than a fabrication. He was a tool for a company that gave a rat's ass about him and was summarily lining their pockets with his power. That, coupled with him feeling "different" and special, caused him to latch onto a mythos that justified and validated his existence. The Jenova in him caused him to act out particularly violently and ruthlessly (as Jenova did when she first arrived) And he then aligned himself against humanity and became the bastard we know today.

It's not just because of the experiments, because we know of other characters who have Jenova cells that don't become evil. In fact, several other progeny of the Jenova Project didn't turn out evil like he did.

And it wasn't because of mind control because Sephiroth is in control of himself.

It's the dynamic combination of the lies, confusion and biology that made Sephiroth the villain he is now.

 

[Ⓐaron]

The Ultimania (or whatever it was called) reveals that Kefka was actually pretty fucked up even before the Magitek infusion, if I remember correctly. Though it’s been awhile since I read the details.

And Golbeza

Spoiler

explicitly says he wouldn’t have been susceptible to mind control if he hadn’t already had “darkness” about him, which is why Cecil didn’t succumb to the same thing. The game is vague about what the “darkness” is exactly, but thematically, it’s connected

.

All that shit helped Sephiroth to snap, but alone I don’t think it would’ve made him into a monomaniacal, psychopathic monster. I mean, he probably would’ve gone crazy, but the story pretty strongly implies that Jenova pushes him during his moment of weakness to realign his philosophy with something that more directly suits her purposes. Now yeah, he gains control over her after that, but the important part of her work is already done – the superhuman killing machine is created.

So yeah, FFVII’s villain rationale is pretty much a mixture of FFIV’s and FFVI’s in my opinion.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah, Kefka was messed up but its the direct actions of Magitek Infusion that causes him to become the deranged, sadistic and vulgar character he is in FFVI. He was abused, withdrawn, and sad before, but then he went utterly mad when the Magitek infusion buggered up.

And yeah, Golbez had darkness in his heart, but it was never enough to make him try to erase humanity so that lunarians could colonize it. His darkness merely opened the door for Zemus to control him. Zemus is the real brains behind Golbez's body.

And that's the dynamic thing about Sephiroth. It isn't just one thing. It's the totality of it all, and Sephiroth making the choice. Sephiroth CHOSE to embrace his darkness and turn his back on everything. It's why the walking through the flames is such a symbolic statement of Sephiroth. When he sees Zack, he just smirks coldly and as if embracing hell, he walks through it to continue the madness.

Sephiroth's attachment to Jenova and her ideology pushes him, but when he clearly quotes feeling "different" and summarily calls everyone a "traitor" and turns his sword to his friend, clearly that's not just madness. Sephiroth has drawn a line between "me" and "them" and chosen to turn against everyone. It's not just him snapping, its him alienating himself further.

It's a mixture of the two, but clearly there's more psychology and choice behind it. The pain and shock of finding out your life is a lie is the trauma that really drives Sephiroth over.

 

[Max Payne]

Ahh, fair enough point. It's not the same.
Hell, Harvey Dent became an insane villain all because acid got splashed in his face during a trial.

Bullshit, Dent became a villain because his life was ruined, not just because his face got fucked up.

He was dragged through the shit, and his mind cracked when he couldn't take it anymore, so he developed a schizophrenic personality to help him cope with it. Dent isn't evil, he's mentally damaged.

 

[Makoeyes987]

In the original Detective Comics, all it was, was the acid splash dude. They added more to it but originally it was the acid splash.

 

[Masamune]

Darth Vader is a prime example of what I'm talking about. He was an evil badass who found salvation at the end of the original trilogy. The prequels turned him into an angsty brat.

That's a bit of generalization, Mako. I'm obviously not even a Sephiroth fan, but I still think having Genesis there was a poor attempt at making Sephiroth look vulnerable and tragic when he's already freaking out over his origins. To have the main villain of FFVII zinged by his inferior may sound ironic, but it also turns him into a patsy.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Okay, I'm just gonna keep the fact I like the prequels and Anakin's descent into darkness to myself then.

I don't see how that makes Sephiroth a patsy really. It just shows the not so great origins of a villain that turned out great. Everything has a start and not all starts are as big as their ends.

 

[Max Payne]

In the original Detective Comics, all it was, was the acid splash dude. They added more to it but originally it was the acid splash.

Bullshit, even back then it still had more factors than "just the acid splash" I mean where are you getting that, wikipedia?

 

[Makoeyes987]

More like my memory and the Batman-wikia but still. I know they added more backstory and shit to his descent into madness but originally, during the Golden Age comics, It was Dent being driven to madness from being scarred that got him to become Two-Face. It wasn't him losing his fiance and all that other stuff they added in "The Long Halloween."

 

[Masamune]

I don't see how that makes Sephiroth a patsy really. It just shows the not so great origins of a villain that turned out great. Everything has a start and not all starts are as big as their ends.

That's my point - Nibelheim already did that. We witnessed his moment of weakness. But there's a fine line between how much weakness you can show, particularly with someone like Sephiroth.

 

[Max Payne]

More like my memory and the Batman-wikia but still. I know they added more backstory and shit to his descent into madness but originally, during the Golden Age comics, It was Dent being driven to madness from being scarred that got him to become Two-Face. It wasn't him losing his fiance and all that other stuff they added in "The Long Halloween."

During the golden age comics, it wasn't just the scarring that turned him crazy. The shit that happened to him as a result of the scarring was what pushed him other the edge.

All of that other stuff in the Long Halloween isn't even a factor since they added other stuff long before that. Even so, you're disregarding who the character actually is, in favor of a depiction that doesn't exist anymore and isn't even relevant, to try add legitimacy to your claims.

The Batman Wikia? lawl.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Eh, the weakness we saw before was mostly masked by anger and hatred for humanity and Shinra.

And honestly, all he really says to Genesis is, "Are you trying to confuse me with everything you've just said---? Or is it, what I have been looking for is the "truth"---? Which ever it may be, you will rot." He doesn't start crying or cutting himself when it all goes down. His depiction of confusion and madness hardly changes at all. He doesn't start weeping like a baby or any other such nonsense.

@Dacon

Yeah, okay Mr. Batman Expert. My mistake. Shall I bring up Mr. Freeze then? A character who goes off the deep end and becomes evil because he lost the woman he loved? I mean again, lots of villains go off the deep end for things normal people just deal with on their own. I think discovering your entire existence is a lie is a pretty fair reason to turn evil.

 

[Max Payne]

Freeze was never evil. He does awful things to further his goals, but the man was never motivated by any sadistic need to do evil to others, and he still refrained from an overt violence against innocents, and has been known to commit heroic acts, and demonstrate kindness to those around him.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah Mr. Freeze has done nice things, but I remember Freeze specifically wanting to take away all that was close to Batman's heart so it'd be cold and numb like his. And didn't Mr. Freeze blame Batman for Nora's death in some comics because he ended up accidentally damaging Nora's cryogenic tube?

I know in the cartoons that happened and he always promised he'd make Gotham City as cold as his heart. And that surely isn't good at all

 

[Max Payne]

Freeze is crazy, but not evil. He's a broken man, who's prone to bouts of insane plots when he's depressed

He blamed Batman for Nora's death, until he found out she wasn't dead anymore.

 

[Makoeyes987]

LOL everyone's fucking crazy when it comes to Batman aren't they?

Two Face is only crazy, Mr. Freeze is only crazy...

Then how about Joker? His origin? Him falling into a vat of chemicals after having found out his pregnant wife died?

 

[Max Payne]

That's the whole point of Batman's Rogues gallery, they're not supposed to be cut and dry evil man.

The Joker is beyond crazy though. He's just fucking apeshit, and fuck that supersanity crap, motherfucker is bananas.

Anyway, enough off topic shite I guess.

 

[Makoeyes987]

So do you think Sephiroth is just insane?

 

[Max Payne]

Nope. He no longer has a brain or even a body to be riddled with illness, has access to all the knowledge in the world, and knows the things he's done are detrimental to all.