Should the FFVII remake be more PC

[Clement Rage]

They will probably lose 'retard', it won't be a loss.

Regarding Tifa's wish, nothing wrong with it. It's a weird thing that happens with female characters sometimes, any opinion they express is taken as representative of how all women should be, regardless of whether it was meant that way or not. In game, it's a personal statement, not a call to arms, no need to take it as anything else.

Cloud is only uncomfortable briefly, his one liner could indicate he's having fun trolling them.

 

[Lex]

The specific term retard is short for mentally retarded, which is usually meant in relation to autism. I think spaz was more about seizures and hyperactivity. Regardless, ableism has been a pretty big social issue. I've hear the mongol thing in relation to Down's syndrome but never applied to someone who wasn't. That was more from my parents' or grandparents' generations though.

This would be the north american meanings of these words you're referencing though. Retarded or "don't be a retard" or however somebody may phrase it wasn't really of common usage in the UK at all until it came over here with American media.

Nobody here ever said "Spaz" either (I've heard that a lot in American media when someone drops something, they might say something like "I'm such a spaz" - nobody says that here. It was "Spazzie" or "Spastic" or "Mongo". Those words and retard all mean exactly the same thing here - they're offensive words that people use to describe people with any number of various mental disabilities and/or when someone is behaving in a stupid way, and they're all socially unacceptable for that reason.

I'm not saying you're wrong at all, just that these words don't have specific meanings in the UK (like retard never referred to a person with autism specifically in this country, mongo wasn't specifically for down's syndrome, etc.)

 

[OneThousandCuts]

It's a weird thing that happens with female characters sometimes, any opinion they express is taken as representative of how all women should be, regardless of whether it was meant that way or not. In game, it's a personal statement, not a call to arms, no need to take it as anything else.

Those who get so hung up on details like that seem to forget that there even is such a thing as an individual's unique narrative; not just the societal one they feel needs constant, hair-splitting critique.

That, and we all know that Tifa winds up saving Cloud as well, soooo....I dunno. To me, it seems even.

 

[ForceStealer]

Well if you wanted to go harsher, something like "Stop being such a drama queen" or "Stop being so dramatic" would work better.

I'd be perfectly okay with that.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

They will probably lose 'retard', it won't be a loss.

Regarding Tifa's wish, nothing wrong with it. It's a weird thing that happens with female characters sometimes, any opinion they express is taken as representative of how all women should be, regardless of whether it was meant that way or not. In game, it's a personal statement, not a call to arms, no need to take it as anything else.

Cloud is only uncomfortable briefly, his one liner could indicate he's having fun trolling them.

Exactly - it tells us something about Tifa, not something about women generally. And it's an important piece of the overall story, because, while he does come to her rescue, she's unconscious and doesn't know - and then she spends two discs of the game rescuing him.

In the same way, while I might not exactly approve of Shera's life choices, she has her reasons and they are part of her character.

 

[Novus]

The thousands of people they killed prior in their terrorist attacks prior is okay though?

For me, PC is the irl way of saying: 'Stop being a dick'. (ironically that is also politically incorrect, but the meaning is there).

It can't really extend to fiction for the above reason.

 

[Dragonslayer Ornstein]

Pretty much what Novus said. Besides, fiction exists to inspire imaginations and stir us, sometimes hitting sensitive buttons is necessary for that.

 

[Dashell]

Do I WANT them to make it more PC? No

Do I think they will? Yes

 

[Alex Strife]

Do I WANT them to make it more PC? No

Do I think they will? Yes

I really, really, really hope you're wrong.

Oh, and hi there. Hadn't seen you for a while!

 

[Cthulhu]

IMO, the point of using swear words and insult is to insult, to shock, etc. Censoring it just... changes the intent.

Replacing with another word (like calling people with a mental disibility "special" ) just leads to something something carousel; "My aren't you a special one?". It's not going anywhere, and it's only a matter of time before the next word becomes offensive. Point is, they can't avoid it being offensive unless they change the whole context (like idk, "just stop"? Although that may be ableist towards people with ADHD and thus offensive)

TL;DR: There's nothing wrong with being offensive IMHO, and it's okay to be offended - if you know you're being offensive and / or take offense, at least you still know right from wrong. It's a different matter when you're just being flippant.

 

[Starling]

Well, Warner bros. once did this:

I don't see how censoring political correctness as it exists/existed in our society would help much. They have a point that it's like pretending those things were never an issue.

 

[ForceStealer]

Now that is how shit like that should be handled. Kudos.

And Yop's exactly right about how they change a word to be more politically correct, but then THAT word becomes a offensive once it's a common one, and you have to create another one. It's a meaningless dance. The only real way to avoid that is to make the politically correct term so cumbersome that it would never be used casually. "What are you, visually impaired?" But that just makes language inefficient, and patronizing in its own right.

 

[Keveh Kins]

I'm expecting it to be omitted purely because the script will presumably differ significantly from the original while telling the same story, ala FFTactics re-release on PSP with the updated script.

I'm expecting a lot of stuff to be changed but convey the same meaning to be honest. Y'know, like "Stop acting as if you were sad" will be changed to "Stop pretending you're sad" and stuff like that.

As for the retard line, I think the choice of word was more to convey a moment of comically immense frustration on Tifa's part. I always imagined that quietly in the back of her head, as she clambered up those stairs, she was wishing that she'd just agreed to Barret's idea to bust through the front. His whining and everything else just got to her for a brief moment and she lashes out.

They could change the line to "Stop being such a dumbass" and it would convey the same thing giving the context of the scene. This is a moment of uncharacteristic temper loss for Tifa and she's justified in one way but also a bit harsh in her wording.

And that's very real because who amongst us hasn't overreacted in insulting someone at least once in their lifetime when they were extremely irritated?

TLDR, if they can find a way of phrasing it that captures the same sentiment in some way as the original, then I'd have no issue with them removing the occasional vulgarity/disparaging word. Retard doesn't need to be there.

Or something. I feel like I've explained my perspective poorly.

 

[Starling]

That looks like a suitable replacement for the line.

 

[Cthulhu]

The modern-day SJW's will probably complain about it though. The same crowd that things Tifa's outfit is too racy / objectifying and shit (I guess they agree with muslim extremists then? idk) will probably go "OMW D**BA** IS AN ABLEIST SLUR"... unless ableist is a slur by then, I wouldn't be surprised.

TL;DR: Ignore all criticism, go break shit.

 

[ForceStealer]

For the record, I have no attachment to the "retard" line. It's not a hugely important moment (indeed, it's entirely optional) and I wouldn't care if they change it as long as the general tone is maintained. I'm referring more to the idea of the wholesale PC-ifying of the game.

 

[Starling]

Calling ableist a slur would be like doing the same to sexist and racist. They're terms to describe someone who's perpetuating a type of prejudice. Unjustly using those for someone who isn't doing that is misuse of the term. So termed SJWs are unpleasable, which is why people who want to talk about those issues in a polite and civil manner tend to avoid being called that. What the term has come to mean is unfortunate since a lot of people use it and the associated behavior as an excuse to devalue the opinions of the people trying to discuss that kind of thing calmly and reasonably.

 

[Cthulhu]

I'd consider being called sexist / racist pretty offensive / insulting already, it's not exactly used lightly. Or, shouldn't be. There's a group on the interwebz that calls anyone that though, which means... it loses its power. Especially when done by hypocrites ("if you are white then you are a racist").

But that's different thread, sorry for bringing it up .

 

[Ite]

People often cannot see the mountain of privilege beneath them - especially when they're trying to climb to the very summit of their lives. Often, these people have unrealistic expectations of those who (invisibly or visibly) were born further down the slope, or on a different mountain altogether (a mountain whose summit you cannot fathom because you are simply unable to see it as a goal. Them's the breaks.)

We're taught to think that the top of our specific mountain is the goal for all life, and that those who do not match our climb are either unable or unwilling. If it's the illusion of disability that prevents our fellow humans from matching us in step, we tend to think of them as unfortunate. This way of thinking is problematic, it suggests a right-and-wrong way to find success, a view created by the people who are able to see the top of their mountain.

When in the company of other people who we deem able (for the sake of argument, we'll say that Tifa considers Barret able to climb the stairs without giving in to despair) it is easier to establish a success goal that by its very nature creates the illusion of a disadvantaged section of the population.

Origin of the word Retard

1480-90; < Latin retard&#257;re to delay, protract, equivalent to re- re- + tard&#257;re to loiter, be slow, derivative of tardus slow; see tardy

In french, "en retard" means "late."

It is important to note that in English, this word has CHANGED. Much like "gay" no longer means "feeling light and breezy," and much like "hysterical" no longer means "horny" the word "retard" cannot simply mean what it says in the dictionary, which is:

adjective
1. characterized by a slowness or limitation in intellectual understanding and awareness, emotional development, academic progress, etc.
2. Slang. stupid or foolish.

In reality, "retarded" more often than not refers to someone with downsyndrome, autism, a low IQ, and it is used to associate a certain BEHAVIOR with those differently-abled people.

However, as has been said, this is a character saying a line, not a message from the creator.

The "problematic nature" of the line is twofold: First, encountering a behavior in Barret that she sees as unproductive causes Tifa to scold him.

The second aspect, and the one that we've been focusing on so far, is that Tifa associates that behavior with a group of people she sees as unable. We've covered that pretty well, and there's nothing I can add to the conversation that I haven't said above, but I think the two aspects of the problem are interrelated.

Let's look at what she's reacting to. After climbing many stairs, Barret's whining reaches pathetic levels. I use "pathetic" in the literary sense, any of these definitions will do. The line he is moved to speak, out loud, evokes the emotional bond between him and his daughter. "Marlene, Daddy wanted to see your face one more time..."

It is my opinion that Barret is giving voice to his fears in order to propel himself forward. Marlene is a consistent motivating factor for him. If I had to run full sprint up 60 floors I would need a very vivid motivating factor to keep my body going, especially if I were over 6' tall and my arms weighed 100 pounds each (I assume the gun-arm weighs even more). Barret is not the kind of person to hold his thoughts in his heart. He gives all his sorrow words, it's one of the things I like about him.

Tifa, who lives in the exact opposite way emotionally, sees this as a weakness. The last time she gave voice to what was on her mind, it was over her dead father's body. She has been shut up in her heart for five years, moving forward by sheer will and anger, pushing thoughts of despair down inside of her. After Sector 7 falls, she hesitates before going after Aeris, saying "I don't know about me... my feelings..." later, she changes her mind, and her explanation is "If I stayed here, I'd go crazy." She's in constant turmoil and doubt, knowing that her own mind is her biggest obstacle on her path to success. This emotional arc comes to a head in disc 2 when she sees wheelchair!Cloud and everything she has pushed down comes crashing upwards, completely immobilizing her and removing her from the story.

Given the disparity between Tifa and Barret, it is easy to see why an outward display of emotional despair (especially one that sounds like Barret is giving up) would ENRAGE Tifa to the point of lashing out.

I don't know if any other word would match the careless malice that comes out of Tifa's mouth in that moment. "Drama queen" doesn't cut it, and is problematic for several other reasons. "Idiot" accomplishes the same thing, and its only a matter of time before we get to that (I've already linked to articles condemning the word 'crazy').

"Don't be pathetic," works.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

"Stop acting like a loser" would work for me.

 

[ForceStealer]

That was eloquently put, Ite. Great analysis.

Barret is not the kind of person to hold his thoughts in his heart.

I see what you did there.

 

[Octo]

I always saw it as Barret being melodramatic, that the stair climb was going to finish him off and he'd never see Marlene again - Tifa responds in the Japanese version 'don't say such dire things!' - but I don't know if she's meant to be responding seriously or shes just going along with the joke.

But anyway, something like 'stop acting like an idiot and climb!' would work just as well.

 

[Ite]

Idiot is just as offensive.

 

[Pixel]

I always saw it as Barret being melodramatic, that the stair climb was going to finish him off and he'd never see Marlene again - Tifa responds in the Japanese version 'don't say such dire things!' - but I don't know if she's meant to be responding seriously or shes just going along with the joke.

But anyway, something like 'stop acting like an idiot and climb!' would work just as well.

It's more about him being dramatic, than calling him stupid. She doesnt even say "and climb". I think her next line is something like. "Come on, just a little further."

 

[Octo]

Idiot is just as offensive.

Well, it is and it isn't. Or rather, from a technical standpoint it means the same as retard, but nobody seems to get their panties in a bunch over it. Same with 'moron'