Significant Differences Between English and Japanese

[waw]

Why would Sephiroth ever be humble??

That... Makes zero sense. No, Sephiroth is not "genuinely" asking for help, in an authentic sense. There's an ulterior motive. There's a thing called "in-character" and consistency, and that's not it, given what he literally just did and said throughout fighting everyone. I'm merely theorizing on why Sephiroth would use that pronoun and perhaps not be as hyper-aware of how his orchestration of events could leave him vulnerable. But I definitely don't think this is something where Sephiroth is playing this role or plea for help straight. That's not him. It would be extremely gullible to take Sephiroth's words at face value that he's somehow authentically pleading for help and humbling himself to Cloud... The one man he carries an intense hatred and fixation towards.

I don't know, Mako. Going from "he can't be humble" to "he's only forgotten Aerith" is a huge leap to me.
EDIT: Sephiroth using "ore" implies a major moment of being humble and genuinely asking for help to me.

Yeah he definitely can. Sephiroth can teleport, traverse vast distances through flight, and his strength gives him the power to easily pick off Aerith if he wanted to. There was absolutely nothing that prevented Sephiroth from killing Aerith on her way to the Forgotten City. He let her go there. I don't see what manner of defense Aerith could have mounted to have protected herself from him alone. Why are you saying that this is somehow a leap?

I don't know that your understanding of Sephiroth is correct here. I know we're watching him/Jenova travel in OG FF7 and that it's about leading Cloud on and such, but if Sephiroth could just go get the keystone and get the Black Materia and end the world... I don't really understand why he doesn't... why he would do so much traveling and such. What I'm saying is, I don't know that FF7 Sephiroth/Jenova was all that All Powerful during Disc 1.

Even things like killing a Midgar Zolom is absolutely an unnecessary thing to do.

And in Remake, as Sephiroth seems to manifest/possess Sephiroth Copies to take action rather than Jenova's body... well, he can only really be wear they are.

We are talking about multiple Sephiroths and I'm trying to keep it to OG Seph and Remake's version of that. And, while I admit, that a lonely Aerith seems incredibly vulnerable, Sephiroth literally has no reason to let Holy get summoned. If there was a plot point about absoring that, too, to ascend to godhood, okay... but it's really just a nonsensical, meaningless thing. It has absolutely no bearing on the story in any way. Her materia, Aerith, all together is completely unimportant.

Holy is meaningless, Sephiroth's bottling of it is meaningless, all this. Your understanding renders the game utterly pointless in so, so many ways. And it's not even to prove that the character is arrogant... his hubris with Aerith and Holy here and in this manner isn't emphasized. It's not a focal development.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don't know, Mako. Going from "he can't be humble" to "he's only forgotten Aerith" is a huge leap to me.
EDIT: Sephiroth using "ore" implies a major moment of being humble and genuinely asking for help to me.

No that doesn't. Unless you're someone ignorant or unaware of who Sephiroth is, there's literally no way someone would take those words or believe that entreaty as genuine humility. If you had no context and idea of what the person saying what he says has done or believes, sure. You could mistakenly believe that but that's not who he is.

That's like genuinely believing the Joker when he comes up for parole at Arkham when he says he's turned over a new leaf and is ready to renounce his life of crime.

I don't know that your understanding of Sephiroth is correct here. I know we're watching him/Jenova travel in OG FF7 and that it's about leading Cloud on and such, but if Sephiroth could just go get the keystone and get the Black Materia and end the world... I don't really understand why he doesn't... why he would do so much traveling and such. What I'm saying is, I don't know that FF7 Sephiroth/Jenova was all that All Powerful during Disc 1.

I am simply baffled you would take what Sephiroth says at face value.

The overwhelming evidence of duplicity, deception, and ability to mind game people, especially Cloud, precludes any surface level belief of what he says to him, right off the bat.

And regarding Aerith, again. Look at his power, his abilities, his strength, and his intent. Aerith died not because Sephiroth immediately wanted her gone, he did it to mindscrew Cloud. Aerith was originally supposed to die by Cloud's hands. Sephiroth set that up. When Cloud resisted, he did it himself and rubbed it in. I don't understand what's ambiguous about this.

Sephiroth
Hmm...... She's thinking of interfering? She will be a difficult one, don't you think?

Sephorith
We must stop that girl soon.

Notice Sephiroth's use of the word "we."

"We must stop that girl soon." Sephiroth never intended to kill her himself. He wanted his puppet to help with murdering her. If he was serious about killing her, he'd have done it himself. She went through the entire Sleeping Forest alone with Sephiroth aware of her intentions, route, and the fact she was alone. The man murdered multiple Shinra military personnel for free in Junon. You think he'd have trouble offing a flower woman walking alone in a forest?

Even things like killing a Midgar Zolom is absolutely an unnecessary thing to do.

He did it because he could and to send a message. He killed it as a display of strength. What about it?

And in Remake, as Sephiroth seems to manifest/possess Sephiroth Copies to take action rather than Jenova's body... well, he can only really be wear they are.

That doesn't mean he can't use Jenova's body. Why would him utilizing Jenova's illusionary abilities speak to how he could or couldn't kill Aerith? I don't get what your point is here.

We are talking about multiple Sephiroths and I'm trying to keep it to OG Seph and Remake's version of that. And, while I admit, that a lonely Aerith seems incredibly vulnerable, Sephiroth literally has no reason to let Holy get summoned. If there was a plot point about absoring that, too, to ascend to godhood, okay... but it's really just a nonsensical, meaningless thing. It has absolutely no bearing on the story in any way. Her materia, Aerith, all together is completely unimportant.

He let Aerith call to Holy because he didn't give a damn about it. Holy was a non-factor. He could hold Holy back with his mind alone. The point of Aerith's death was to hurt Cloud and break him. Holy was not a concern for Sephiroth because Holy would only work if he died. His goal was to never lose, so why would he be worried about Holy if he intends to succeed and not die?

Holy is meaningless, Sephiroth's bottling of it is meaningless, all this. Your understanding renders the game utterly pointless in so, so many ways. And it's not even to prove that the character is arrogant... his hubris with Aerith and Holy here and in this manner isn't emphasized. It's not a focal development.

Why would Sephiroth play to lose?

He didn't think he was going to die, he fought to win. He was by all aspects stronger than everyone. Why would he be concerned about Holy when the only chance it would work was if humans pulled off a miracle and beat him in battle? You're not thinking from his perspective. He wouldn't worry about that. It's not even hubris, it was the unlikely event and heroic chance that exists when an underdog takes on a "villain."

 

[waw]

No that doesn't. Unless you're someone ignorant or unaware of who Sephiroth is, there's literally no way someone would take those words or believe that entreaty as genuine humility. If you had no context and idea of what the person saying what he says has done or believes, sure. You could mistakenly believe that but that's not who he is.

Look dude, you're incredibly intelligent and you leave some absolutely great posts, but please, please work on your people skills a bit. This line?

"Unless you're someone ignorant or unaware of who Sephiroth is" is just insulting as hell. I really like it here, but you literally just called me ignorant. We don't need to go down that road.

I'm unfortunately taking a break from here after you called me ignorant. I really like your posts, I really like the discussions here, however, I do see when you enter a discusison, it turns into an argument and I see you get heated with other users. I'm pretty damn offended, so I'm out.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Look dude, you're incredibly intelligent and you leave some absolutely great posts, but please, please work on your people skills a bit. This line?

"Unless you're someone ignorant or unaware of who Sephiroth is" is just insulting as hell. I really like it here, but you literally just called me ignorant. We don't need to go down that road.

I'm unfortunately taking a break from here after you called me ignorant. I really like your posts, I really like the discussions here, however, I do see when you enter a discusison, it turns into an argument and I see you get heated with other users. I'm pretty damn offended, so I'm out.

...I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to a hypothetical person who was "ignorant of Sephiroth and his past."

And ignorance simply means "lack of knowledge or understanding." Not knowing someone or something means being unaware, which would meaning being naive to them. It's not an insult, it is different than "stupid." If someone did not know Sephiroth, only knew his words from that scene and believed him genuinely that would mean being ignorant of his personality and ignorant to his deception. That's all.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Best explanation I can think of is Sephiroth indirectly acknowledging Cloud’s strength out of some kind of respect…not that he thinks of Cloud as being above him, but Cloud being strong enough to defeat fate itself (something Sephiroth needed help with) seems to be exactly what he wanted so perhaps it’s a subtle way of recognizing that power?

 

[ForceStealer]

The weird thing with that angle is that "ore" is not deferential, it's self-assured. It is more familiar, which I suppose is your point, but it's not like he's saying "boku"

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

...I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to a hypothetical person who was "ignorant of Sephiroth and his past."

Mostly ignoring the obvious implication of your prior address to simply say that the heat did escalate here unnecessarily. We can avoid that, as well as avoid respectful (regardless of whether mistaken) participants from feeling bludgeoned into departing. Very easily. So do that.

I don't know, Mako. Going from "he can't be humble" to "he's only forgotten Aerith" is a huge leap to me.

EDIT: Sephiroth using "ore" implies a major moment of being humble and genuinely asking for help to me.

He can at least pretend to be humble, which may be what's happening here. May make sense to take that approach when requesting assistance, even if it's with the intention of being stabby later.

I don't know that your understanding of Sephiroth is correct here. I know we're watching him/Jenova travel in OG FF7 and that it's about leading Cloud on and such, but if Sephiroth could just go get the keystone and get the Black Materia and end the world... I don't really understand why he doesn't... why he would do so much traveling and such.

Because humiliating Cloud and cracking his spirit like a baby bird's spine is his first order of business. He hated Cloud as much as he desired godhood -- so we're talking about a lot of passion for hating that dude.

While it would be easy to just go get the Black Materia and cast Meteor, that isn't nearly as satisfying as forcing Cloud to first hand him the Black Materia against his will, then later breaking his spirit so completely that Cloud willingly hands it over; or as satisfying as making Cloud first savagely beat someone he loves, then later kill her; or as satisfying as dumping Cloud into the Lifestream, where Cloud threw Seph when he defeated him five years before.

Seph is so obsessed with Cloud that his hatred for the guy gave his spirit a tether to return years later. For Sephiroth, no victory could be complete without first destroying Cloud in every way possible. Nojima even commented in the Reunion Files that Sephiroth's main reason to come back in AC/ACC was revenge on Cloud, and that "He is so focused on Cloud that he really doesn't care about what else is going on."

I wouldn't call it his "defining character trait" but yeah, I get your point. Just... having your supervillain know the entire script and still be arrogant that they can't stop him is rather pointless of a character change.

"Ah you defeated me before Batman when I lifted this bomb just like this... so I'm going to do the exact same thing with no changes!!!!" It defeats the purpose of the character having any wider knowledge... unless the purpose of being aware of the future events is just so Square can change some scenes, which is rather pointless.

Basically, if Seph knows the future, or some of it, it needs to impact the story. Underestimating the character(s) in the exact same way really renders that impact non-existence. I really, really could be wrong here... but I'm puzzled by it if I am.

But Seph doesn't see Cloud as a challenge to overcome, right? He sees him as part of a cosmic fluke in need of correction. Cloud humiliated Sephiroth's pride, so he has to suffer before being destroyed. Approaching him as an actual threat who requires doing things differently would mean acknowledging that what happened wasn't an error on destiny's part, but his own.

Like, you don't go from taunting your archenemy with their Mother's last words and telling them to "hold onto that hatred" but then try to be chummy with them. Like, that just seems uncharacteristically naive.

As @ForceStealer pointed out, it would be a silly request regardless given the parties involved -- but for accuracy's sake, the Chapter 18 Seph who makes that appeal to Cloud isn't supposed to be the Seph in Chapter 2 who quoted Cloud's dying mother.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

@waw

Nojima even commented in the Reunion Files that Sephiroth's main reason to come back in AC/ACC was revenge on Cloud, and that "He is so focused on Cloud that he really doesn't care about what else is going on."

But Seph doesn't see Cloud as a challenge to overcome, right? He sees him as part of a cosmic fluke in need of correction. Cloud humiliated Sephiroth's pride, so he has to suffer before being destroyed. Approaching him as an actual threat who requires doing things differently would mean acknowledging that what happened wasn't an error on destiny's part, but his own.

A lot of the information regarding *what* Sephiroth is thinking in the OG comes from the Ultimanias and particularly developer interviews.

I sometimes don't know if it's more helpful with this group to pull out the Ultimanias or not because some people treat them as canon and other people think they're the worst thing that happened to canon. So I often start out with just what we know from the OG... which is... fuzzier and and defines people's thought processes a lot less.

Once you hit the Ultimanias and the rest of the Compilation, there's no ambiguity about what Sephiroth was trying to do at Temple of the Ancients. Holy is... pretty much an non-issue for him. His will is so powerful he can hold it back himself. All he wants to do is mess with Cloud's Mind. What Aerith is doing is besides the point to Sephiroth. It's *not* something he really cares all that much about. Killing Aerith "early" would set his plan back in fact if Cloud doesn't know Sephiroth was the one who killed Aerith.

Sephiroth is... a classic example of a villian whose petty wants and desires get in the way of his overall grand plan. All Sephiroth has to do is let go of going revenge on Cloud and he would be much more successful at his goal of becoming god.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Mostly ignoring the obvious implication of your prior address to simply say that the heat did escalate here unnecessarily.

I worded that poorly, so I apologize. I only meant to refer to someone who'd be fooled by him without the context of Sephiroth's 20 year history of being able to deceive others with his words. The context and knowledge is what makes it very unlikely Sephiroth would genuinely actually look at Cloud positively as an equal. I can believe he'd want something from him but not in a genuine or respectful way.

As @ForceStealer pointed out, it would be a silly request regardless given the parties involved -- but for accuracy's sake, the Chapter 18 Seph who makes that appeal to Cloud isn't supposed to be the Seph in Chapter 2 who quoted Cloud's dying mother.

See, I get that but the reason I made that comparison is because of this:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415734209562304517

These Sephiroths apparently share consciousness (I'm pretty sure she meant conscious not "conscience") and want the same thing.

Which would explain the illusion Sephiroth in Chapter 2 having the ability to reference a future insecurity Cloud will have of not being able to save or protect anyone.

So at some level, they want Cloud to buck "destiny." And they all operate on the desire to toy with him while doing so. It just opens itself to a very strange dynamic if Sephiroth actually believes he can ask Cloud for help and get it. While also taunting and belittling him.

But who knows, it could be Seph x Cloud fanservice for all we understand of that moment now.

 

[Odysseus]

I've been thinking that, if it's future Aerith giving her past self memories, then Sephiroth can probably do the exact same thing. All the Sephiroths are functionally just one person with one goal, though I'm still not sure what to make of the chapter 18 one.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Well... there's also the fact that all "parts" of Jenova are mentally connected to each other unless someone has *really* strong will. Like Zack.

And we know Sephiroth has control/influence over all of Jenova's parts by this point. So wherever there are Jenova/Sephiroth Cells in someone without a strong will, they're someone Sephiroth is mentally connected to. So Sephiroth can *directly* mess with Cloud's mind via the abilities of Jenova Cells... like making Cloud see stuff that *isn't there*.

That's how Sephiroth was both at the Northern Crater and something Cloud and Co. followed in the OG. The Sephiroth of the Northern Crater had... essentially remote access... to all the Sephiroth Copies *and* Jenova's "main" body. And was piloting them all to go to the Northern Crater. He was just... a lot more subtle with how he was getting Cloud to go there because he wanted revenge on Cloud. So Cloud's will had to remain more intact up to a certain point.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I've been thinking that, if it's future Aerith giving her past self memories, then Sephiroth can probably do the exact same thing. All the Sephiroths are functionally just one person with one goal, though I'm still not sure what to make of the chapter 18 one.

So Sephiroth has divided himself into 13 Darknesses? Hmm..

LOL that would make sense though. It's like how Jenova hive minds itself and it's parts and share awareness via the Reunion.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Some of the Sephiroths are just Cloud hallucinating, though, aren't they?
But presumably it's the Jenova cells making him hallucinate and that's the connection to Sephiroth Central.
He's a bit like Chadley isn't he?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Some of the Sephiroths are just Cloud hallucinating, though, aren't they?
But presumably it's the Jenova cells making him hallucinate and that's the connection to Sephiroth Central.
He's a bit like Chadley isn't he?

Exactly, they're hallucinations but hallucinations induced by the Jenova Cells.

I mean, there is that headcanon that Chadley was created by Hojo out of the likeness of Sephiroth as a young boy..

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I know that headcanon and it seems plausible, though it's not one of my favourites.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

There's an interesting difference between the Japanese and English in the Chapter 1 scene where Heidegger is talking to President Shinra. Sorry if this has already been noted.

English:
These sewer rats appear to call themselves Avalanche, sir. We are currently investigating whether they belong to the same group that made the attempt on your life.

Japanese:
このネズミどもは“アバランチ”を名乗っているようです。とはいえ、かってプレジデントの命をつけ狙ったあのアバランチとの関係は不明。
「It seems these sewer rats call themselves "Avalanche." However, their relationship to the Avalanche that made an attempt on your life is still unknown.」

I've seen some fans take the English localized version as evidence that Heidegger and the President aren't aware that it was Avalanche who tried to assassinate the President in Junon, and further conclude that Rufus's connection with Avalanche was never unearthed by the President in the Remake continuity, and that he could therefore still be orchestrating their actions behind the scenes. The Japanese script contradicts this, however, and proves the President and his staff are aware of Avalanche's activities. I think it's safe to assume that the events of Before Crisis haven't been retconned—or at least not where Rufus's connection to Avalanche is concerned.

 

[Odysseus]

You know, a lot of these "differences" kind of boil down to "the wording of the English version can potentially be interpreted in a way the Japanese can't, but it can also be interpreted as meaning the same thing."

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You know, a lot of these "differences" kind of boil down to "the wording of the English version can potentially be interpreted in a way the Japanese can't, but it can also be interpreted as meaning the same thing."

This is a constant source of pain in my ass from this series. I'll never understand it.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

You know, a lot of these "differences" kind of boil down to "the wording of the English version can potentially be interpreted in a way the Japanese can't, but it can also be interpreted as meaning the same thing."

Definitely. And on the flipside, I'd like to think that the English localization may be more explicit or revealing than the Japanese in certain scenarios. This isn't like the OG translation, where someone sat down and pounded out a script with no input from the original writers (at least that's how I think it happened). With Remake we had several well-staffed localization teams who were in frequent contact with the scenario and dialogue writers, refining and revising their translations as new context was supplied to them. They may not have known as much as the Japanese staff, but they sure as hell know more than the audience!

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I'm following Game Gengo's re-translation of the OG... and I've yet to find a place where the English is more revealing than the JP is. The JP is always more revealing... although that's in part because of how kanji work and how Japanese can fit in a lot more information into the same space than English can...

It's a constant headache with JP media in general and I don't think it will never go away.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I know that headcanon and it seems plausible, though it's not one of my favourites.

It’s clearly where he gets all his big Chad energy from

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't understand why people would think Rufus has lost all his contacts with Avalanche just because he was arrested and imprisoned for four years, and because one tiny group of Avalanche fringe nutters was eliminated. It's obvious now that the whole of Avalanche was not wiped out at the end of BC, just a couple of its leaders.

Nelson Mandela was imprisoned on Robbin Island for 27 years and he didn't lose his authority within the ANC.
or if people feel, quite rightly, that Rufus shouldn't be compared to Mandela:
Hitler was imprisoned for a year after the Beer Hall Putsch and retained his control of the Nazi Party.
There are many other historical examples of leaders of terrorist groups, opposition parties, political wings etc... who have been imprisoned and then emerged to reclaim that leadership.

Rufus is supported by the Turks and their beloved ex-leader Veld is the father of the surviving leader of Fuhito's branch of Avalanche (Elfe). So maintaining or re-establishing his contacts in Avalanche isn't going to be hard for him. And they have no reason to mistrust him: he never betrayed them, and he helped saved Elfe's life.

Also, a Rufus who is intriguing with Avalanche and prepared on the turn of a dime to stab any of his allies in the back is a much more intriguing proposition, as a character, than a Rufus who isn't doing these things. I don't know how any writer could resist.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Well... Fuhito's Avalanche *did* try to kill Rufus when they had no more use for him. And he absolutely betrayed them. He was playing both sides right up until the Turks overcame Avalanche at Corel and caught Rufus to hand him over to dad. Also, Elfe and Veld want *nothing* to do with Avalanche given how Fuhito was... abusing Elfe for the sole purpose of summoning Zicronaide and killing everyone in the world. They're both done and retiered and Shinra has no idea either of them are alive (and Veld comes back with the BC Turks in the end of the OG, so...)

The branch of Avalanche that Rufus *did* have contacts in was devastated in BC. They were the most radical branch of Avalanche and Rufus was backing them. The rest of Avalanche want nothing to do with *Barret* because of he's too... ballistic for them. And Fuhito was even worse. If anything, I'd think the rest of Avalanche would have issues with Rufus for being the one who funded Fuhito initially.

Now could Rufus somehow know people in Avalanche? Sure. But I'll honestly be surprised if he does given his situation. Everyone knows he wants to take over Shinra and has the Turks' loyalty.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

When did he betray them? He was under house arrest for 4 years and said nothing.
We don't know that Elfe wants nothing to do with Avalanche. We know nothing about her post-BC. We do know that she regrets the role she played in Fuhito's group. Personally I don't expect her to make an appearance in the Remake, but you never know.
Veld isn't done and retired; we know from Case of Shinra and also, I think, the Turks side novel, that he's never stopped meddling and keeps an eye on what's going on. He's clearly in contact with Reeve.
We do know that Fuhito's branch of Avalanche was destroyed in BC. When BC was written, Fuhito's was the original and only Avalanche; it was the entirety of Avalanche Mark I. Avalanche canon has subsequently been ret-conned in the Remake, and Fuhito's group has been reduced to an extremist splinter cell. I imagine Rufus' association with them will be retconned too.
Obviously Avalanche are not going to ally with Rufus if he's been giving them the "people are stupid and I'll rule them with fear" speech. Do you really think he'd allow them to see that side of himself? Do you really think Rufus is incapable of persuading people in Avalanche that he wants to see Shinra change in ways they would approve of? They would want to believe him, because it would seem like the best prospect they'd have of achieving their goals while minimising human suffering. Replace the cruel old king with a benevolent new king who's on your side. It makes sense.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

When did he betray them? He was under house arrest for 4 years and said nothing.

Before he was arrested he was flip-flopping. Avalache was no longer until Rufus' control when he was arrested and he was trying (and failing) to get control of it at the Corel Reactor. Which is also when the Turks decided to protect Rufus just because it was their job and prevented Fuhio and Avalanche from killing him.

We don't know that Elfe wants nothing to do with Avalanche. We know nothing about her post-BC. We do know that she regrets the role she played in Fuhito's group. Personally I don't expect her to make an appearance in the Remake, but you never know.

The way Elfe describes it in BC, she had no memory of her time *before* Avalanche. Fuhito was basicly the person who brought her up after Hojo threw her out of his lab. It sounded like Elfe never really had a choice to be in Avalanche, that was just the role Fuhito wanted her to play.

Veld isn't done and retired; we know from Case of Shinra and also, I think, the Turks side novel, that he's never stopped meddling and keeps an eye on what's going on. He's clearly in contact with Reeve.

I mean that Veld is retiered in that Shinra thinks he's *dead*. He has no reason to let anyone else in Shinra know he's alive until Rufus solidifies power over the Company. Which Rufus hasn't yet. Scarlet in particular would *love* to kill him.

We do know that Fuhito's branch of Avalanche was destroyed in BC. When BC was written, Fuhito's was the original and only Avalanche; it was the entirety of Avalanche Mark I. Avalanche canon has subsequently been ret-conned in the Remake, and Fuhito's group has been reduced to an extremist splinter cell. I imagine Rufus' association with them will be retconned too.

The World Preivew book hints that it's not. All the dates of BC's Avalanche's activities are in the World Preview book. It's just not specific as to which Avalanche is doing them. Rufus betraying his dad and getting caught at Corel *is* in there. Like most of the World Preview book, they are all phrased in such a way as to not give away too many spoilers though.

Interestingly, it's not Remake that retconned that there is another branch of Avalanche and that Fuhito's isn't the main one. It was Crisis Core: -The Complete Guide- that did so... It also specifies that Elfe was *not* the first leader of Avalanche, but the second leader and then offers no explanation as to why she's the second leader. So... it seems that BC Avalanche not being the original Avalanche has been around for a while in the dev team's mind.

AVALANCHE
An organization opposed to Shinra, and while they share the same
name there are two groups with different situations. The original
AVALANCHE was created by scholars of planetary life in Cosmo Canyon,
and after this group is destroyed, the anti-Shinra group ALAVANCHE led
by Barret which appeared in “FFVII” took on their name and ambition.

The AVALANCHE in the time period of this game is the former, and as
shown in “BC” it was a time when the second leader, a woman named
Elfe, began an armed revolt under the slogan “Down with the Shin-Ra!”

Obviously Avalanche are not going to ally with Rufus if he's been giving them the "people are stupid and I'll rule them with fear" speech. Do you really think he'd allow them to see that side of himself? Do you really think Rufus is incapable of persuading people in Avalanche that he wants to see Shinra change in ways they would approve of? They would want to believe him, because it would seem like the best prospect they'd have of achieving their goals while minimising human suffering. Replace the cruel old king with a benevolent new king who's on your side. It makes sense.

Rufus is the king of smooth talking in the Compilation. He tells people whatever he thinks they need to hear so they go do what *he* wants them to do. He absolutely could tell Avalanche anything they wanted to hear. I also wouldn't think he'd mean any of it...

I'm less thinking of what *Avalanche* would think of Rufus and more what *Rufus* would think of Avalanche. He knows better than most people how volatile they can be and that he *can't* trust them. They'd both be using each other while both of them would drop the other at the first sign of the other betraying them. And... I could see Rufus wanting to just *not* have to deal with that on top of... two (or more) of his own executives wanting the job he just inherited.