Significant Differences Between English and Japanese

[Obsidian Fire]

I mean, Tifa is the only one Sephiroth just wants *gone*. He doesn't taunt her, doesn't tease her... Just wants her to not be there. So he knows she did *something* that he can't *not* take seriously.

Aerith... Aerith, Sephiroth is fine taunting her. He blocked Holy last time and got geostigma going and killed her. He *knows* he doesn't need to fear her.

 

[waw]

Aerith... Aerith, Sephiroth is fine taunting her. He blocked Holy last time and got geostigma going and killed her. He *knows* he doesn't need to fear her.

I get your interpretation, but he didn't kill her in time to stop Holy, he didn't stop her from rousing a strong enough portion of the Lifestream to help stop Meteor, and her Healing Rain showed up to restore folks of Geostigama as she retained her independence in the Lifestream and countered him.
So while I understand your points, I don't agree that Sephiroth can so callously dismiss Aerith and/or doesn't need to fear her.

Maybe Square's going in that direction, but I don't get it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I get your interpretation, but he didn't kill her in time to stop Holy ...

But that was only because he dilly dallied about until Cloud could show up and be forced into being the one to kill her -- which Cloud was unexpectedly able to resist. Had he just gotten it over with, Cloud and the others would have found her already dead.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Dilly dally shilly shally

 

[null]

Wouldn’t that depend on how aware Sephiroth is of specifically Tifa’s role in restoring Cloud? Because if Sephiroth knows the future but doesn’t know every exact step, maybe he’d still regard her as a nuisance who just happened to be in the way?

I mean, Tifa did have a meltdown in front of Sephiroth over Cloud really being her childhood friend. Hopefully he took a few notes. Heck even back then he had better roasts "mwahahaha, you look ill Tifa".

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I get your interpretation, but he didn't kill her in time to stop Holy, he didn't stop her from rousing a strong enough portion of the Lifestream to help stop Meteor, and her Healing Rain showed up to restore folks of Geostigama as she retained her independence in the Lifestream and countered him.

I'm not saying that Sephiroht doesn't underestimate Aerith, he does. But the point of him killing her wasn't to stop Holy. He had *already* stopped it by the time he killed her. He killed her to mind-fuck Cloud. That's all there is too it.

If Holy had gone off like it was supposed to, Sephiroth would have been erased from existence by the Lifestream. He woudn't have ever had gotten the chance to kill Aerith if that happened.

 

[waw]

I'm not saying that Sephiroht doesn't underestimate Aerith, he does. But the point of him killing her wasn't to stop Holy. He had *already* stopped it by the time he killed her. He killed her to mind-fuck Cloud. That's all there is too it.

If Holy had gone off like it was supposed to, Sephiroth would have been erased from existence by the Lifestream. He woudn't have ever had gotten the chance to kill Aerith if that happened.

I agree that she was killed after she summoned Holy... Do we know exactly when she summoned Holy, though? I guess I always assumed that Sephiroth was moments too late in killing her, and stopping Holy was a backup plan. That's just been... I guess I never questioned it.

I just don't get some form of future-aware Sephiroth underestimating the hero that screwed him up so bad (Aerith) time and time again. I mean, maybe that's what they're going with, but that honestly confuses me. They've been so careful about everything else but Seph is just going to arrogantly overlook the being who becomes god-like and undoes everything in AC and ruins his plans?

O.O

 

[Makoeyes987]

It makes perfect sense if you consider that Sephiroth doesn't have all of his memories.

The fact Sephiroth refers to himself with "ore" rather than "watashi" is a reflection of his personality and state of mind. It's possible this future Sephiroth is the remaining core of his spirit that has endured diffusion but has lost a bit of his previous memories and while he has knowledge of what happened, not everything is present in his consciousness yet. He knows but may not have all the details. Yet.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

How convenient that he only has some of his memories which just happen to be exactly and only the ones the storytellers need.
I feel like the flaming arrow window guy from Disenchantment. If only SE would include their own flaming arrow window guy, I'd be content.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I mean, Tifa did have a meltdown in front of Sephiroth over Cloud really being her childhood friend. Hopefully he took a few notes. Heck even back then he had better roasts "mwahahaha, you look ill Tifa".

True but I mean specifically the fact that Tifa’s the key to restoring Cloud’s mind, he wasn’t actually there to witness that when they went to the Lifestream in the OG so for his sake he’d better figure that part out ASAP

How convenient that he only has some of his memories which just happen to be exactly and only the ones the storytellers need.
I feel like the flaming arrow window guy from Disenchantment. If only SE would include their own flaming arrow window guy, I'd be content.

I guess it’s kinda the same with Cloud, of all the memories he could’ve forgotten it just happens to be the one that basically defines his whole character’s motivation lol

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Do we know exactly when she summoned Holy, though? I guess I always assumed that Sephiroth was moments too late in killing her, and stopping Holy was a backup plan. That's just been... I guess I never questioned it.

We know Aerith has to summon Holy at the Water Alter at the City of the Ancients. So she has to get there first and then summon Holy. How soon she gets there before Cloud and Co. do... that we don't know.

The trouble is... Sephiroth sees the scene when Aerith tells Cloud in a dream that she is going to do *something* only she can do and then leaves Cloud and the group at the Temple of the Ancients. And then Sephiroth follows her. Or rather, he tell Cloud that Aerith is up to something so he better had follow her. And then Sephiroth decides not to kill Aerith before she even gets to the City of the Ancients even though he has been following her the whole time and knows she's going to do something against him before she even does it.

Sephiroth has every reason and opportunity to kill Aerith long before she can cast Holy and... he doesn't take the opportunity to do so... He instead waits until Cloud gets to where Aerith is (after Holy has been cast) and tries to make Cloud kill Aerith. And when Cloud manages to resist Sephiroth, only then does Sephiroth kill her. Sephiroth also is holding Holy back as soon as it is cast, so weather or not Holy is cast doesn't really matter to him.

So yeah... Sephiroth... really majorly messed up if his goal was to kill Aerith before she cast Holy. If he wanted to play around with Cloud's mental state though... A+ on his part.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

So Holy is just a MacGuffin?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I just don't get some form of future-aware Sephiroth underestimating the hero that screwed him up so bad (Aerith) time and time again. I mean, maybe that's what they're going with, but that honestly confuses me. They've been so careful about everything else but Seph is just going to arrogantly overlook the being who becomes god-like and undoes everything in AC and ruins his plans?

Underestimating his opponents is his defining character trait. He underestimated Cloud in Nibelheim and died from it. He jerked Cloud and co. around five years later instead of just killing them, then they killed him as he was preparing to ascend to godhood. He again focuses on taunting and torturing Cloud in AC/ACC instead of just finishing him off at the first available opportunity, and he dies yet again.

It makes perfect sense if you consider that Sephiroth doesn't have all of his memories.

The fact Sephiroth refers to himself with "ore" rather than "watashi" is a reflection of his personality and state of mind. It's possible this future Sephiroth is the remaining core of his spirit that has endured diffusion but has lost a bit of his previous memories and while he has knowledge of what happened, not everything is present in his consciousness yet. He knows but may not have all the details. Yet.

Why would he not have all his memories or all the details? He even knows he killed Aerith before. He comes off as the only one who's already read the whole script.

So Holy is just a MacGuffin?

More of a McMuffin. Timing decides whether there's a smooth transition or you're just stuck in the shitter.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I wish I understood that joke, Tres, but I don't get it.

Edited to add: Maybe the reason Sephiroth plays with Cloud instead of killing Cloud before Cloud can kill him is that he's been to the future and knows it doesn't matter how many times he dies - he'll always be back.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Why would he not have all his memories or all the details? He even knows he killed Aerith before. He comes off as the only one who's already read the whole script.

He does know important points of the future but he might still be regaining his memories of specific details.

Why is Sephiroth back to referring to himself as "ore?" That's a significant detail that's mentioned twice about him. Something's changed within his mind. We have observed him reverting to a previous mental and personality aspect from younger years of his existence. I think there's significance to that.

I dunno, maybe it's not indicative of him yet to fully regaining his full knowledge, power and dark divinity, but... It means something. I think it's a significant detail and it would make sense that he'd forget somethings after years upon years of existence.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

How would the differences in "ore" and "watashi" indicate missing memories? Choice of personal pronoun in Japanese is determined by how well you know the person you're speaking to, your social status, and the degree of masculinity (authoritativeness?) you wish to project. If I had to guess, and given that I don't know when in the Remake he uses ore and when he uses watashi, I'd say he uses watashi when he's an illusion, memory, or being embodied by a clone, and ore when he is speaking with the full authority of his genuine self. If he refers to himself as "ore" when he's a clone or illusion, then I'm obviously completely wrong.

 

[ForceStealer]

I dunno about memories missing or whatever. But the big pronoun shift for Sephiroth is that he uses "ore" up until the Nibelheim Incident, and from that point on uses "watashi."
Before that point, he's a cocky SOLDIER. Afterwards he's a self-apointed god-figure and thus, polite. At least that has been my reading on it

Could just be that he's appealing to Cloud's memory of him by using "ore" again, but

 

[Makoeyes987]

How would the differences in "ore" and "watashi" indicate missing memories? Choice of personal pronoun in Japanese is determined by how well you know the person you're speaking to, your social status, and the degree of masculinity (authoritativeness?) you wish to project. If I had to guess, and given that I don't know when in the Remake he uses ore and when he uses watashi, I'd say he uses watashi when he's an illusion, memory, or being embodied by a clone, and ore when he is speaking with the full authority of his genuine self. If he refers to himself as "ore" when he's a clone or illusion, then I'm obviously completely wrong.

Your personal pronoun is usually what your pronoun is. Sephiroth's change is unusual and it happened upon his first "death." While alive he used "ore," a masculine, youthful and common pronoun used by young adult men. When he died and became part of the Lifestream, he changed. His mindset changed. All throughout FFVII, AC and anytime he's a villain, he uses watashi. It's old fashioned, refined, professional/polite and more gender neutral. The only time he used "ore" was before his madness and during the Nibelheim Massacre.

In FFVII-R he uses watashi except in Chapter 18. The Sephiroth at the Edge of Creation uses "ore." This is a significant deviation that's brought to our attention in the Ultimania.

Could just be that he's appealing to Cloud's memory of him by using "ore" again, but

Maybe, but would that actually work? Cloud hates him and he knows that. He tells him to "hold onto that hatred." I think that would be more for Sephiroth's benefit or identity than Cloud's.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

That's a great explanation of the distinction between ore and watashi, but it doesn't establish any connection between the pronouns and having partial memories. If he's speaking to Cloud using "ore" it means, presumably, that he thinks of himself and Cloud as peers. The likeliest change, then, is in the way he perceives Cloud, his relationship to Cloud, and Cloud's relationship to him.

 

[Odysseus]

The big difference with Sephiroth in the remake is that he's directly appealed to Cloud for assistance on multiple occassions. I don't think his change in pronoun is a memory issue, I think it's closer to what Lic said.

 

[Makoeyes987]

But he's appealed to Cloud for strength before and used "watashi."

It's only in the Edge of Creation such a shift has been witnessed. Maybe it is a hope or some sort of mind game towards convincing Cloud, but that seems rather clumsy and naive. Like, you don't go from taunting your archenemy with their Mother's last words and telling them to "hold onto that hatred" but then try to be chummy with them. Like, that just seems uncharacteristically naive.

Maybe it is, I just figured it represented a past state of Sephiroth's perception of himself and his identity.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'll tell you honestly, Mako, no messing, I really wish I could completely grasp your understanding of this game.

 

[ForceStealer]

Like, you don't go from taunting your archenemy with their Mother's last words and telling them to "hold onto that hatred" but then try to be chummy with them. Like, that just seems uncharacteristically naive.

I'd make that observation over what happens, irrespective of pronouns, though. He does go from taunting him to asking for his help.

 

[waw]

I feel like, at some point here, we jumped on an assumption and are running with it, which is really unlike this group.

It makes perfect sense if you consider that Sephiroth doesn't have all of his memories.

I need to go back over the Ultimania stuff, but this idea with multiple Sephiroths running around, is it confirmed that one doesn't have all his memories?

And then, the memories missing, is about the one person capable of screwing him up? He remembers Cloud, he remembers Tifa helps Cloud, but he doesn't recall Aerith, that's just the random blindspot? I don't know, everything is so smooth and well built and I feel like we're fan theorizing here that "well he just doesn't remember her" to make things make sense.

We know Aerith has to summon Holy at the Water Alter at the City of the Ancients. So she has to get there first and then summon Holy. How soon she gets there before Cloud and Co. do... that we don't know.

The trouble is... Sephiroth sees the scene when Aerith tells Cloud in a dream that she is going to do *something* only she can do and then leaves Cloud and the group at the Temple of the Ancients. And then Sephiroth follows her. Or rather, he tell Cloud that Aerith is up to something so he better had follow her. And then Sephiroth decides not to kill Aerith before she even gets to the City of the Ancients even though he has been following her the whole time and knows she's going to do something against him before she even does it.

Sephiroth has every reason and opportunity to kill Aerith long before she can cast Holy and... he doesn't take the opportunity to do so... He instead waits until Cloud gets to where Aerith is (after Holy has been cast) and tries to make Cloud kill Aerith. And when Cloud manages to resist Sephiroth, only then does Sephiroth kill her. Sephiroth also is holding Holy back as soon as it is cast, so weather or not Holy is cast doesn't really matter to him.

So yeah... Sephiroth... really majorly messed up if his goal was to kill Aerith before she cast Holy. If he wanted to play around with Cloud's mental state though... A+ on his part.

There's a jump in here. This part is the assumption:

Or rather, he tell Cloud that Aerith is up to something so he better had follow her. And then Sephiroth decides not to kill Aerith before she even gets to the City of the Ancients even though he has been following her the whole time and knows she's going to do something against him before she even does it.

Sephiroth has every reason and opportunity to kill Aerith long before she can cast Holy and... he doesn't take the opportunity to do so... He instead waits until Cloud gets to where Aerith is (after Holy has been cast) and tries to make Cloud kill Aerith

We don't know that Sephiroth could get to Aerith on her journey to the City of the Ancients, and we don't know that Sephiroth was just lying in wait there. Now, yes, both of those things make sense, but I don't think those things are ever confirmed, are they? Just because Sephiroth knows Aerith is heading to the City of Ancients, why do we assume he's just right there waiting for her the entire time?

Underestimating his opponents is his defining character trait. He underestimated Cloud in Nibelheim and died from it. He jerked Cloud and co. around five years later instead of just killing them, then they killed him as he was preparing to ascend to godhood. He again focuses on taunting and torturing Cloud in AC/ACC instead of just finishing him off at the first available opportunity, and he dies yet again.

I wouldn't call it his "defining character trait" but yeah, I get your point. Just... having your supervillain know the entire script and still be arrogant that they can't stop him is rather pointless of a character change.

"Ah you defeated me before Batman when I lifted this bomb just like this... so I'm going to do the exact same thing with no changes!!!!" It defeats the purpose of the character having any wider knowledge... unless the purpose of being aware of the future events is just so Square can change some scenes, which is rather pointless.

Basically, if Seph knows the future, or some of it, it needs to impact the story. Underestimating the character(s) in the exact same way really renders that impact non-existence. I really, really could be wrong here... but I'm puzzled by it if I am.

Why would he not have all his memories or all the details? He even knows he killed Aerith before. He comes off as the only one who's already read the whole script.


More of a McMuffin. Timing decides whether there's a smooth transition or you're just stuck in the shitter.

^This.

Re: Ore
What ForceStealer said, Sephiroth isn't necessarily rendered into some sort of lesser form or younger form here, to me. He's humbled asking Cloud for help, to change the future. He's genuinely asking for his help and that means changing your pronouns. It's a HUGE deal in Japan when someone of a higher rank humbles themselves when talking to someone of lower rank.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Why would Sephiroth ever be humble??

That... Makes zero sense. No, Sephiroth is not "genuinely" asking for help, in an authentic sense. There's an ulterior motive. There's a thing called "in-character" and consistency, and that's not it, given what he literally just did and said throughout fighting everyone. I'm merely theorizing on why Sephiroth would use that pronoun and perhaps not be as hyper-aware of how his orchestration of events could leave him vulnerable. But I definitely don't think this is something where Sephiroth is playing this role or plea for help straight. That's not him. It would be extremely gullible to take Sephiroth's words at face value that he's somehow authentically pleading for help and humbling himself to Cloud... The one man he carries an intense hatred and fixation towards.

We don't know that Sephiroth could get to Aerith on her journey to the City of the Ancients, and we don't know that Sephiroth was just lying in wait there. Now, yes, both of those things make sense, but I don't think those things are ever confirmed, are they? Just because Sephiroth knows Aerith is heading to the City of Ancients, why do we assume he's just right there waiting for her the entire time?

Yeah he definitely can. Sephiroth can teleport, traverse vast distances through flight, and his strength gives him the power to easily pick off Aerith if he wanted to. There was absolutely nothing that prevented Sephiroth from killing Aerith on her way to the Forgotten City. He let her go there. I don't see what manner of defense Aerith could have mounted to have protected herself from him alone. Why are you saying that this is somehow a leap?