Significant Differences Between English and Japanese

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Re Betrayal: It's true that Fuhito had broken away from Rufus' control by the time of the Corel incident - if he was ever under Rufus' control in the first place. It would probably be truer to say he'd been playing Rufus fo a mug all along, milking him for all the gil he could get. However, at no point did Rufus betray Avalanche to Shinra, whereas he frequently betrayed Shinra and the Turks to Avalanche.

It's true Elfe has very few memories of her life before Avalanche - although she does recognise her father unprompted - but it's possible that, like Tifa, she believes in their goals (I mean, who wouldn't?) even if she deeply regrets the methods she was persuaded to use.

Rufus already knows that Veld isn't dead. In BC he helps Tseng fake Veld's death. Rufus knows that Veld and the other BC Turks aren't dead.

I don't have the World Preview Book so I can't say anyting about that. When did it come out? However, there's a clear difference between BC Avalanche, which was comprised solely of Fuhito and his cohorts, and Remake Avalanche, which contains at least three separate groups (Barret's, Fuhito's defunct group, and HQ) and probably more.

If you've got one enemy you might as well have two and try to get them to fight each other....

 

[ph14basicbitch]

There is a timeline difference with how the events of BC made it into Remake, versus how they were in the Compilation, but we don't know the extent of that yet. The ending of BC in the Compilation has Tseng, Reno and Rude officially becoming Rufus's property right as Cloud and Barret blow up the reactor. However, in the Remake Ultimania, the Shinra hierarchy chart in the book notes that the Turks have a connection to Rufus, and they've taken a lot of jobs from him despite being under Heidegger officially. In order for them to get a bunch of work from Rufus, their relationship logically has been going on for longer than chapter 1 of Remake.

Or, I don't know, did Reno chug Red Bull and pull an all-nighter and complete 100 things for the VP before going to Sector 5?

Personally, I would not rely on the World Preview book, as it was released before Remake came out (in Japan), before they showed their hand with the plot ghosts. An example of how I think it clearly was written before the actual plot was developed is how, under the same part where it talks about Rufus being put under house arrest following Corel, it mentions "Yuffie leaves Wutai to become a materia hunter". (Intermission spoilers)

 

[ph14basicbitch]

Okay I'm too dumb to use forums apparently, I messed up my spoiler tag lmao.

Spoiler: Intermission Spoilers

Does that make sense to anyone that Yuffie still left Wutai 4 years ago? In Intermission she says she's there on behalf of the New Wutai Government...

 

[Makoeyes987]

Okay I'm too dumb to use forums apparently, I messed up my spoiler tag lmao.

Spoiler: Intermission Spoilers

Does that make sense to anyone that Yuffie still left Wutai 4 years ago? In Intermission she says she's there on behalf of the New Wutai Government...

I mean, its not the most irreconcilable thing. She could have left Wutai to hunt materia, come back or met with whatever agents of the Wutai government exist now and then go from there to the plot.

I mean, I dunno. It's all in flux now so it just depends on how all the narrative pieces land.

 

[ph14basicbitch]

Yeah, she could be taking remote assignments. Tho, I genuinely believe the WP book was made before they had developed certain plot points.

Another example: The World Preview book says Midgar started being constructed in 1976. But the Remake Material Ultimania, which came out last year after Remake came out, has a timeline of Midgar's construction, and it puts the starting date as 1969. This timeline includes little diagrams showing you how far along Midgar has been built. The 1976 entry shows that Midgar is far from "starting to be built", and the text notes they've moved on to beginning the construction of Reactor 08. I point this out because I don't think you can reconcile the World Preview starting year w/what the Material Ultimania shows you lol.

And if you ask me which book I'm going to believe -- the World Preview book that came out with a seemingly copy/pasted info from their website and a condensed Compilation timeline, or the Material Ultimania book which has a ton of design and development documents in general... mm yeah I'm gonna pick the Material Ultimania.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think the World Preview Book definitely gives only a partial look of all the FFVII Series info, given that yeah, it came earlier before the Remake. Like all things with this FFVII canon, the most recent info is usually best and most up to date. Glad to know they gave a solid date and everything for Midgar's full construction!

Ironically though, the World Preview Book is the actual first time the FFVII Timeline has ever been published in English. So it gets point just for that simple groundbreaking achievement alone lol

 

[ph14basicbitch]

A participation award for the World Preview book, then.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Interestingly, it's not Remake that retconned that there is another branch of Avalanche and that Fuhito's isn't the main one. It was Crisis Core: -The Complete Guide- that did so... It also specifies that Elfe was *not* the first leader of Avalanche, but the second leader and then offers no explanation as to why she's the second leader. So... it seems that BC Avalanche not being the original Avalanche has been around for a while in the dev team's mind.

I just took that to mean the original leader died and Elfe inherited leadership. I don't think it was meant to be indicative of a separate faction.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

But the Remake Material Ultimania, which came out last year after Remake came out, has a timeline of Midgar's construction, and it puts the starting date as 1969. This timeline includes little diagrams showing you how far along Midgar has been built. The 1976 entry shows that Midgar is far from "starting to be built", and the text notes they've moved on to beginning the construction of Reactor 08.

Do you have the first Material Ultimania, and if so, do you feel like it's still worth getting? I missed my chance and now the price is super inflated online. I've already seen most of the content from this 4k flipthrough, but the most interesting pages, which have to do with Midgar, it's history, architecture, politics, etc., are written too small to make out.

Edit: Oh snap, I just realized I can make it out!! I must not have had 4k selected.

Edit 2: Cooool. There's so much detail here. So the Sector 6 plate partially collapsed in 1976. Remember when we all thought Zirconiade caused it? Good times.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The ending of BC in the Compilation has Tseng, Reno and Rude officially becoming Rufus's property right as Cloud and Barret blow up the reactor. However, in the Remake Ultimania, the Shinra hierarchy chart in the book notes that the Turks have a connection to Rufus, and they've taken a lot of jobs from him despite being under Heidegger officially.

No, at the end of BC they don't become Rufus' property "officially"; they were always under Heidegger officially, but their alliance with Rufus, though unofficial and, one would guess, not known to the rest of the Board, takes precedence.

I still think Yuffie left Wutai to become a materia hunter and is lying about being an official agent of the new Wutai government. I mean, girl does tell the occasional lie now and then.

 

[ph14basicbitch]

Do you have the first Material Ultimania, and if so, do you feel like it's still worth getting? I missed my chance and now the price is super inflated online. I've already seen most of the content from this 4k flipthrough, but the most interesting pages, which have to do with Midgar, it's history, architecture, politics, etc., are written too small to make out.

Edit: Oh snap, I just realized I can make it out!! I must not have had 4k selected.

I've turned into a filthy collector so I buy all of this shit anyway.

The book is still normal price on Amazon Japan, and is eligible for shipping to various countries for a fairly low cost because Amazon has a contract w/DHL: https://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/475756869X/

Edit: By the way, the official English version of this book is coming out in December, including as an Amazon Kindle e-Book - https://smile.amazon.com/dp/1646091213/

No, at the end of BC they don't become Rufus' property "officially"; they were always under Heidegger officially, but their alliance with Rufus, though unofficial and, one would guess, not known to the rest of the Board, takes precedence.

I wasn't really talking about the Shinra hierarchy structure nor did I say they were not under Heidegger. Just meant the Ultimania is suggesting there is more time between the events at the end of BC and the start of Remake (in order for the Turks to be taking a lot of assignments from Rufus). (edit: and also for them to have a connection with him)

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

Not to derail the topic but that Midgar timeline is really interesting. It confirms that Zack died in the Remake timeline we play through (so, no, we aren't in some kind of loop as some people speculated); and it also mentions Genesis, which I haven't seen before in other Remake material, unless I'm forgetting something obvious.

Edit: Scooped by Audrey again!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

There is a timeline difference with how the events of BC made it into Remake, versus how they were in the Compilation, but we don't know the extent of that yet. The ending of BC in the Compilation has Tseng, Reno and Rude officially becoming Rufus's property right as Cloud and Barret blow up the reactor. However, in the Remake Ultimania, the Shinra hierarchy chart in the book notes that the Turks have a connection to Rufus, and they've taken a lot of jobs from him despite being under Heidegger officially. In order for them to get a bunch of work from Rufus, their relationship logically has been going on for longer than chapter 1 of Remake.

In fairness, there's a little over two months between Rufus assisting in the faked deaths of Veld and Elfe and that moment at the end of BC when the alert about the reactor goes off. Plenty of time for the Turks to already feel indebted to Rufus before he saved their skins again at the board meeting.

Another example: The World Preview book says Midgar started being constructed in 1976. But the Remake Material Ultimania, which came out last year after Remake came out, has a timeline of Midgar's construction, and it puts the starting date as 1969. This timeline includes little diagrams showing you how far along Midgar has been built. The 1976 entry shows that Midgar is far from "starting to be built", and the text notes they've moved on to beginning the construction of Reactor 08. I point this out because I don't think you can reconcile the World Preview starting year w/what the Material Ultimania shows you lol.

Most of the info in the Midgar timeline from the Remake Material Ultimania is in red text, which has this headnote: 赤字は新規(裏)設定として組み込む内容 ("Details in red included as new backstory"), so we can't hold much against older books. =P

They've simply done here what should have been done a while ago and made 1976 (when Shin-Ra moved its headquarters to Midgar) the timing for when the reactors and plate were completed. I always thought it made more sense for Shin-Ra to move the headquarters once the city was basically done, but the timelines in all previous books have been specific that "construction begins" then. Even a nice, brief "Midgar constructed" notation would have been ambiguous enough to leave the room for it.

 

[ph14basicbitch]

Not to derail the topic but that Midgar timeline is really interesting. It confirms that Zack died in the Remake timeline we play through (so, no, we aren't in some kind of loop as some people speculated); and it also mentions Genesis, which I haven't seen before in other Remake material, unless I'm forgetting something obvious.

Yeah, I was wondering about that too when I saw the timeline... I do think it's the first mention of Genesis in Remake anything. The WP book doesn't mention him either.

Time to make a dumb argument like "WP book doesn't say anything about Genesis, thus it's invalid".

In fairness, there's a little over two months between Rufus assisting in the faked deaths of Veld and Elfe and that moment at the end of BC when the alert about the reactor goes off. Plenty of time for the Turks to already feel indebted to Rufus before he saved their skins again at the board meeting.

I've considered this as well, but I have 2 issues with it. Whether you share these concerns about this scenario is up to you, of course, as they're more like speculations on the situation on my part of what we don't see during that 2mo time period in BC.

1. Would the 3 remaining Turks, who are in some shit w/the executives, be allowed to roam around and do things and still be taking missions in the time leading up to the hearing in December? Something about how the hearing scene starts off with them being sentenced to death says "no" to me lol.
2. When Rufus appears at the December hearing, Scarlet says something along the lines of, "What are you doing here? I thought you were on a business trip?" Even though Rufus was freed from his baby jail by Dad Shinra long before this, we have no idea where he's been for the past 2 months cause apparently he hasn't been at the office. So, even if the Turks were still able to do [whatever] back in Midgar, was Rufus even there at the same time as them?

On the other hand, Scarlet looks like she could eat some little blonde twink for breakfast after crushing him under her high heels, so it's also possible that Rufus has actually been at the office this entire time, but avoiding Scarlet. Hmm.

Most of the info in the Midgar timeline from the Remake Material Ultimania is in red text, which has this headnote: 赤字は新規(裏)設定として組み込む内容 ("Details in red included as new backstory"), so we can't hold much against older books. =P

Pff, I'm not sure I would call it "older" lol. It came out what, 10 days before Remake was released? Which is why I think people are thinking it's timeline relates to Remake's to begin with.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I do think it's the first mention of Genesis in Remake anything. The WP book doesn't mention him either.

He's actually in a screenshot on pg. 142 of that "Walking Around Midgar" ("Midgar no Arukikata") book! Part of a section mentioning LOVELESS.

 

[ph14basicbitch]

Lmao the only parts I remember from the Arukimania are the bit about Shinra guard hounds playing with basketballs and Rufus's hair being SILVER instead of BLONDE.

Well, that settles it. The Arukimania and Material Ultimania are clearly the better books because they weren't afraid to mention Gackt.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

He's actually in a screenshot on pg. 142 of that "Walking Around Midgar" ("Midgar no Arukikata") book! Part of a section mentioning LOVELESS.

Whaaat. How have I never heard of this? Is it worth looking into? Any scans or summaries anywhere if so?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Whaaat. How have I never heard of this? Is it worth looking into? Any scans or summaries anywhere if so?

It's nothing particularly special:

 

[KindOfBlue]

Part of a section mentioning LOVELESS.

Because of COURSE he is…never change, Genesis, never change lmao

 

[Eerie]

I think a lot of people will enjoy this comparison script of some scenes between the OG and Remake, both in English and Japanese, as Mrs Bushouse certainly has took a long time to gather all of this.

I must say so far the thing that really threw me OFF from the localisation in English is seemingly nothing:

ティファ
　お化粧してる？　その格好！
Tifa
Oh my god, that makeup! And that dress!

To me, this is really a faux-pas, Tifa should NEVER be saying "Oh my god!" which makes no sense for her character - at least Aerith I could understand... but Tifa?? I know it's totally innocuous in American, but... I think it's a detail translators should not add just because everyone says it all the time in the US. FFVII is not the US, even if heavily inspired by it. It's something I'm extra careful about in my writing and I would be pissed if someone mistranslated something like this. Maybe it hits me more because I'm French and we do not say "oh mon dieu" as easily as the Americans, and usually we use non-religious expressions (we DO have tons of them mind you, they're out of style tho), but that's typically the kind of things that throw me out of a scene really easily

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Aerith swearing is just as off-putting given what she says in JP though. She *never* swears in the JP, or is sassy how she is in English. She talks a lot more like a little kid. So it's just more of the same stretching of the characterization to fit what different fans want out of their characters.

And one of the things the English fanbase wants is more trash-talking out of the girls so the localizers have them trash-talk more.

Also, ToTP *did* confirm there's some kind of religion that uses judeo-christian terms for what is in it... so "oh my god" would fit the setting now....

 

[KindOfBlue]

Yeah, I dunno if it would make sense to judge the appropriateness of an English localization by comparing it to French standards, in English it’s really just a thing people say.

I wouldn’t think too much about it, though. When people say “hell” or “damn”, is that meant to imply some sort of religious concept of hell in-universe? Probably not, it’s just using the vernacular of the audience.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Ahaha The moments I would look for are that of where vernacular doesn't coincide with the disposition/context of the character and their speaking habits. I would've raised a brow at, say, Vincent popping off with an excited phrase like that, but a character like Tifa? In that situation? Makes a lot of sense from a localization standpoint contextually, for something that has also LONG passed it's actual religious connotation anyway. I really want to say that kind of thing goes beyond just ENG speaking/US people, but different backgrounds and strokes I suppose!

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Maybe Aerith's style of talking is altered in order to present her as the kind of character the localisation audience can recognise. To the best of my knowledge (and I know very little!) young women who talk like little kids are a cute thing in Japan; such a style of speech wouldn't suggest that the young woman is immature (?). Whereas it would be more jarring to a western audience? Also afaik swearing isn't a big thing in Japanese anyway, whereas saying "shit" (or even "fuck") isn't such a big deal in English. Even little kids do it.

And yes, their world does have lingering traces of a religion. I quite like that Tifa says "Oh my god..." Their religion has faded away such as Christianity has faded in the west (with the exception of the southern US) but left traces in their language that people don't even think about, just as in our world. If the translators didn't want to use "Oh my god" or other exclamations with religions associations, I don't know what they could use to replace it. "Wow"?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

To the best of my knowledge (and I know very little!) young women who talk like little kids are a cute thing in Japan; such a style of speech wouldn't suggest that the young woman is immature (?).

Having characters (both male and female) who talk/act in a childlike manner while everyone takes them seriously is... not uncommon in manga/anime. And it's always weird trying to get that across in English. It oftentimes feels like everyone is ignoring what *should* be a glaring character flaw... but instead is just treated like any other character tick no one cares about.

English just seems to... associate "child-like way of talking" with "immaturity of thought". When... Japanese definetly doesn't. It also means you can get characters that are of the Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass variety out easier. Or have characters that look like they're coded for "innocent" turn out to be *anything* but.

Aerith is a good example of the middle of the road. Where she's clearly street-smart and knows more than everyone else does... and then talks/acts like she isn't street-smart... until it turns out she knows all this stuff about Wall Market and what's going on, etc. There's... almost an inherent part of Aerith's character based on the mood whiplash. Where she can turn on a dime from having a really innocuous conversation to noticing something really serious and none of it is out of character for her. You get the idea what she *should* come off as is a grown-up Precocious Child who never lost the precociousness.