Significant Differences Between English and Japanese

[Eerie]

Aerith swearing is just as off-putting given what she says in JP though. She *never* swears in the JP, or is sassy how she is in English. She talks a lot more like a little kid. So it's just more of the same stretching of the characterization to fit what different fans want out of their characters.

And one of the things the English fanbase wants is more trash-talking out of the girls so the localizers have them trash-talk more.

Also, ToTP *did* confirm there's some kind of religion that uses judeo-christian terms for what is in it... so "oh my god" would fit the setting now....

That's true for Aerith swearing and sounding more childish in JP and other languages, I'm not fan of the swearing actually. And I think that Intermission really threw off people who played in English because you can see Aerith's true way of speaking there, as there was no way to turn her lines with sassiness.

As for the religion, sure but... Tifa isn't religious, she hasn't got any religious background (that's why I said I could see Aerith saying it, but not Tifa). When religion is not a thing, these kind of terms just... don't exist. At all. Because what is "god"? The answer is they don't know. Especially not Tifa, we see it with her mum's death and what she thought about it. If she had known or believed about a god, she'd have mentioned it there. To me it's jarring because it should not be there. Yes, I understand it's innocuous, but the translators forgot that there is no god in FFVII.

Also, I want to add a little bit of context because the translator gushes a lot about English being more natural than the Japanese; having talked to Peko, who is native, the dialogues are natural in Japanese too - as they are in French, and I suppose in Italian and German. That's the thing that kind of grates me, when someone says "oh it doesn't sound natural in xx language" just because the English is *heavily* localised. Because it is natural. But of course when you have to translate, it sounds weird. Because there are things in Japanese that cannot be translated but that give life to characters (thinking about Reno's speech for example), so other languages have to rely on other things to fully convey the characterisation.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Is there a particular reason we have to look at it as a signal towards religious connotation, though? And not just by the simple fact Tifa, amongst others in this world, could use that vernacular in the general way that a lot of ENG speaking people do?

To be fair, as a term, especially in fantasy settings, I agree it can mostly certainly be a showing of the ideals of the world (e.g. like the high fantasy of FFXIV's world and saying "by the gods"—you hardly get that pluralism in most ENG-speaking settings in real life). However, just the conceptual usage of the term, and existence thereof, doesn't always go that deep in reflecting one's religious beliefs (or an exact established one), similarly in real-life. Gods/Goddesses can and have been used to simply convey those higher-status beings too, after all, and that could easily be how it becomes a part of the vernacular too. I don't think it's really worth investigating, though. Outside of analyzing religious thematic things of representation in characters/themes as has already been done (like w/ Sephiroth and Jenova), questioning the inner-workings of simply using/the existence of the term "god" in FFVII seems silly when we have an antagonist who is trying to basically become one and we already have the term "goddess" used in the world's literature—both "god" and "goddess" as terms in-world don't always signify a link to a specific religious function or a specific fantasy deity, yeah?

 

[Eerie]

Again, look at us French people who really don't use "oh mon dieu" that easily. That's why I tend to think it's a mistake. The fact that it's everywhere in American and pervasive doesn't mean we should not look at it for what it is: the use of that vernacular is widespread because religion is widespread in the US - even if you are atheist, the majority of people there aren't. I feel it's a small thing that just threw me off - and the English localisation is used for everyone who doesn't have a translation in their own language, remember.

 

[MelodicEnigma]

Yes yes I know! It is a small matter after all—I'm mostly just addressing that the reasons it's used in the US (which isn't limited to or origin of—the phrase isn't an American thing necessarily) doesn't have to be extrapolated to the same prospects of the game. In that, thinking Tifa "shouldn't" say it because she hasn't established her own religious beliefs or there isn't that same specific establishment in the game's world, isn't really needed to justify the usage of the term. Really in any language, I suppose. If other non-ENG speaking find it odd considering their background, it's understandable of course, it's just not necessarily weird for the game or from a localization point of view. It's just more to experience when crossing into different language regions at the end of the day!

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

So "Oh my god" would appropriate for an English localisation, because everybody says it, to the extent that it has even been shortened to "OMG!". It doesn't indicate that the speaker is religious in any way; it's become completely detached from any religious association. This is true in the entire Anglosphere, not just the USA. If Tifa avoided it - avoided 'taking the lord's name in vain' - that would sound wierd. But it wouldn't be appropriate in French.

That said, in French Canadian most of the really powerful swear words are Catholic in origin, eg. "Tabernac!" and they are used by all Quebecois regardless of religious affinity.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I don’t imagine there’s a lot of people of the intended audience, that being English speakers, that were put off by the use of the term though. Actually, I was surprised by how much swearing was in the English script because normally one of the biggest things I dislike about English dubs of Japanese games and anime are how unnatural the swearing sounds but the remake just makes it sound pretty normal.

Regarding Aerith, she does sound a bit too childish for my liking in English but generally that’s been the case with a lot of Japanese “cutesy” characters for me. I dunno how much of that can be attributed to either the writing or Briana White’s delivery but I find a lot of Japanese cuteness to feel so manufactured and exagerrated when translated to English.

 

[ForceStealer]

Again, look at us French people who really don't use "oh mon dieu" that easily. That's why I tend to think it's a mistake. The fact that it's everywhere in American and pervasive doesn't mean we should not look at it for what it is: the use of that vernacular is widespread because religion is widespread in the US - even if you are atheist, the majority of people there aren't. I feel it's a small thing that just threw me off - and the English localisation is used for everyone who doesn't have a translation in their own language, remember.

What about when Cid insists you have some goddamn tea?

Or how religious do you regard Scarlet?


"God" references are throughout the OG English script.

 

[ph14basicbitch]

What about when Cid insists you have some goddamn tea?

Speaking of which, and in the spirit of this topic, that line was originally "Guests, sit down on those chairs and keep quiet" in Japanese. Nowadays, people would probably consider that kind of thing a huge difference between JP and EN.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

What might sound quite blunt in Japanese can, when translated literally, come across as very polite in English.

 

[ph14basicbitch]

Yeah "Guests, sit down on those chairs and keep quiet" probably doesn't sound very Cid-like to anyone, does it? (I admit, it's an intentionally bad translation on my part for illustration purposes.)

 

[Obsidian Fire]

If you go far enough back, just about *all* "swear words" in English are either religious in nature or refer to sexual intercourse (the US for sex references more so than in Europe). "Bloody" (as in "bloody hell") in England is a reference to "Christ's blood". You'll see a similar reference in Middle English with "'swounds" or "zwounds" which is the shorted form of "Christ's wounds" (on the cross). "Damn it" is the shorted form of "damn (it) to hell".

It's not just in English either. Historically *many* languages would involve whatever the local religion was into their expletives... It's only with the decrease in the importance of religion that there's less "religious" expletives... but the ones that are already in languages tend to stick around for a *while*. In fact, the term "swear word" itself is a lingering vestige of when swearing oaths (often on religious relics!) to show how serious someone was about something was important. Before it inevitably ended up being cheapened into just a catch all term about how strongly a situation makes someone feel... strong enough to swear an oath!

Looking up how different languages get their expletives is a really fun cultural study TBH... as is how as time goes on, more and more of them have to be piled on top of each other to make a situation seem more serious as their use is normalized... And can also explain why some people didn't think using them was good thing...

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Granted, that kinda side-steps the question of if I can see Tifa and Aerith swearing the way swearing happens in English given how they're portrayed in Japanese... And... I really can't? Tifa more so than Aerith for sure. There are words/phrases that function as swears in Japanese. Characters like Barret, Cloud, Jessie and even Tifa do at times. While Aerith... just doesn't use any of those Japanese words/phrases. So hearing Aerith use their equivilant in English just... feels odd.

Which circles back to what is done with character archtypes that don't really exist in other cultures.... do you just make that character another character archetype they originally weren't or do you keep their personality even if it confuses the other culture... or some kind of middle road.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

There's no easy answer to that question. It depends on what's more important, the character itself or the way the audience perceives the character. I wouldn't say a western audience's response to a Japanese Aerith is confused, per se, just different. One isn't more right or wrong than the other. I mean, the English version of FFVII is a translation, so it has to be meaningful within the context of the target culture, not just the originating culture, otherwise it's nothing more than an anthropological primary source.

 

[Eerie]

What about when Cid insists you have some goddamn tea?

Or how religious do you regard Scarlet?
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"God" references are throughout the OG English script.

Although to be fair, I did play in French the first time around, and I didn't really care about the EN translations because all translations of the OG are notoriously bad. Just saying that in Remake, seeing it writte made me pause. I know others don't! It's really a small thing as I said, but it threw me off like "mmh whaaaaaaat", and I say this as someone who, in English on Twitter with my friend, does use "OMG!" (and never "oh mon dieu!" XD). So I am aware of how pervasive it is in English (one of my French friends absolutely abhors it), but in my mind, none of the characters Aerith aside should truly say it. It doesn't fit the world. It's really a small world-building detail, but it's the kind of things I care about

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Fair enough

 

[KindOfBlue]

Granted, that kinda side-steps the question of if I can see Tifa and Aerith swearing the way swearing happens in English given how they're portrayed in Japanese... And... I really can't? Tifa more so than Aerith for sure. There are words/phrases that function as swears in Japanese. Characters like Barret, Cloud, Jessie and even Tifa do at times. While Aerith... just doesn't use any of those Japanese words/phrases. So hearing Aerith use their equivilant in English just... feels odd.

Which circles back to what is done with character archtypes that don't really exist in other cultures.... do you just make that character another character archetype they originally weren't or do you keep their personality even if it confuses the other culture... or some kind of middle road.

I guess the frequency and intensity of the swearing matters as well. This is what I remember off the top of my head so there might be some missing:

Aerith:
- “Shit!”
- “Dammit…” (if Tifa is chosen in the sewer)
- “Yeah, so what? Screw him.”

Tifa:
- “Dammit!” (when she gets knocked down in battle)
- “You’ve seen how much ass I can kick.”
- “That bastard!” (if Aerith is chosen in the sewer)

Aside from Aerith’s “shit” which I’m pretty sure was intentionally meant to be funny because it’s her of all people, her and Tifa’s swearing is pretty mild compared to Cloud and Barret’s uses of “shit”, “bitch” and “goddamn” along with the aforementioned words.

Although to be fair, I did play in French the first time around, and I didn't really care about the EN translations because all translations of the OG are notoriously bad. Just saying that in Remake, seeing it writte made me pause. I know others don't! It's really a small thing as I said, but it threw me off like "mmh whaaaaaaat", and I say this as someone who, in English on Twitter with my friend, does use "OMG!" (and never "oh mon dieu!" XD). So I am aware of how pervasive it is in English (one of my French friends absolutely abhors it), but in my mind, none of the characters Aerith aside should truly say it. It doesn't fit the world. It's really a small world-building detail, but it's the kind of things I care about

I mean shouldn’t you judge the English dub by English standards and not French?

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

Just putting this in here for posterity:

In Chapter 8 when you first get to the Sector 5 Slums, after the news segments with Scarlett, the monitor defaults to a loop of a TV reporter commenting on the blast and Shinra's response to it. In the English localization, the reporter mentions that the Wutai ceasefire was signed five years ago, which is one year less than the official timelines tell us. This is likely a simple localization error, as the Japanese version of the monitor script makes no mention of the ceasefire or when it was signed. Alternatively, it's possible the ceasefire wasn't technically signed until a year after hostilities ended for miscellaneous bureaucratic reasons. Either way, I don't think we can read anything into it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

You get the idea what she [Aerith] *should* come off as is a grown-up Precocious Child who never lost the precociousness.

That's pretty much precisely how she comes across in the English dub to me, so I would say mission accomplished.

As for the religion, sure but... Tifa isn't religious, she hasn't got any religious background (that's why I said I could see Aerith saying it, but not Tifa). When religion is not a thing, these kind of terms just... don't exist. At all. Because what is "god"? The answer is they don't know. Especially not Tifa, we see it with her mum's death and what she thought about it. If she had known or believed about a god, she'd have mentioned it there. To me it's jarring because it should not be there. Yes, I understand it's innocuous, but the translators forgot that there is no god in FFVII.

We now know unequivocally that the concept of something like the Judeo-Christian God exists in that world, though. And even when we only had the original game, that church was still there.

Dirge of Cerberus would later place one with similar design sensibilities in Kalm as well.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Precocious kids are usually pretty annoying, but Aerith isn't annoying. To me she comes across as a pretty typical young woman, assertive, likeable, and fun-loving, who moves confidently through her world, and only occassionally lets slip that she has some rather unusual abilities that make her someone out of the ordinary. I also really like the fact that she isn't vain, yet also gets a huge kick out of dressing up all gorgeous for the Corneo mission.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I usually find precocious kids endearing, but I've also never been a teacher outside Sunday School.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Maybe we mean different things by precocious?

I mean, I didn't get the impression the writers (Nojima et al) wanted Aerith to come across as some kind of child genius, or a kid who has more worldly wisdom than you'd expect in someone her age. She's just a normal kid in extraordinary circumstances, afflicted with some strange abilities she doesn't really understand. That's how kid-Aerith and teenager-Aerith came across to me, anyway.

 

[Eerie]

I just learned about the difference on Bigg's line when he tells Cloud to modify the Buster sword on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1507127534772649987

In French, it's "did you promise yourself to keep it as is?"

I think it's annoying how, even though it's a great localisation, it misses subtle hints like these.

 

[ph14basicbitch]

Imo, the "on that sword" part is that person's mis-interpretation of whatever the other person told them. The difference being "swore an oath on that sword" is saying that Biggs is suggesting Cloud has sworn something but is not saying what he swore. But contextually, the JP dialogue is just Biggs asking him if he swore not to change the sword, and you can tell from the 2 or so lines before Biggs's line.

 

[Eerie]

Eh I think it's just with Biggs' line in English, it's hard to get the pointer towards CC, while it's clear that it's there at least in Japanese. As noted by @odekopeko it's also a reference to bushido (it was already in CC, with the whole honour stuff, swearing and oath to your sword), but the clear reference to CC kind of disappear in English, and that's what makes me a little sad.

With the French translation, I really can't tell because I haven't watched CC in French ^^' so I only knew the English line. But the line makes it very clear that the Buster sword is very special to Cloud, unlike the English line, IMHO. Unless I'm missing something, that's how I, a non-native, takes this line.

 

[ph14basicbitch]

Oh nooo I'm not saying that the "swear an oath" part is wrong or anything lol. The JP dialogue is like, Biggs observes that Cloud has never modded the Buster Sword, Cloud gets defensive and says he doesn't need to juice up his weapon etc, and Biggs reacts to him and goes, "Is that some kinda oath?"

I think the "on that sword" part seems like a miss. ("He asks Cloud if he “swore an oath” on that sword.") And IMO, this distinction does matter in English.