SPOILERS So let's say that [spoiler] was really alive...

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
I think I am not clear enough, but the CC ending that does exist in Remake timeline is the timeline we play in (probably). What I am talking about, the specific point is the timeline where Zack is "alive". And it's very different from the CC ending.

Well that's the thing. Him coming back to knock at the church's door IS very reminiscent of Clay returning to Elmyra.
His death happen after we see him and Aerith cross paths.

He continued his search of Aerith from his death
I know what you meant and it's clear to me, but it's not. Because Zack's death would be more like Marcellus case, not Clay. And if he already met her like Marcellus case, it makes sense that in CC ending he accept his fate and not searching her, trusting Cloud to take care of her. And TOTP gives us that idea.

This is clear that Remake gives him a very different fate from CC because if he's dead, he would be pretty aware. No way he is unaware of his death when the original makes him accept his fate and dissolve into lifestream consciously. Lingering attachments to life have traditionally been associated with ghost stories, and in Final Fantasy, they're always things to overcome. It would be OOC and ruin his character if he became not resting spirit in the Lifestream like Sephiroth, lingering to the livings (Aerith). Zack is Nojima's baby. The idea I could accept is he picking Aerith away to the sky when she died just like Angeal did to him, just at that time... not because he keeps searching for her in death. Heck, even Clay is aware that he's dead but he just wanna see Elmyra for the last time before disappearing, too bad, she can't see him, only Aerith. But here, after the victory, Zack walks, and then arrives at the church, opening a physical door. He looks for her because he's alive!

The possibility is just the point one you mention. I'm not convinced that Aerith is dead on his timeline, but it's possible.
On the contrary Zack himself can't believe he survived, suggesting that they may have helped him. Couldn't it be, maybe, that the Planet decided to save him to counterbalance the changes that happened in the Remake timeline?

They defeated fate, which will necessarily have consequences. I have no idea what role Zack will have in this situation, but I have a feeling he will show up at the Temple of Ancients.

My headcanon is the whispers are the ones who "help" the troops by bugging Zack. We see they're capable to touch people when they threw Cloud & Aerith to the other room of the church and when they threw Wedge from Shinra building. Although their concept is new and created for Remake, think that they always exist in Compilation universe and we just didn't see them visibly on CC ending. I think they always helped Zack dodging the Turks and the troops on the run, helped Cloud by bugging them when they're trying to take him away from where Zack was in distance to fight, for example (I mean we see him dropping Cloud at the wood in Last Order when the troops chase him). Why did they help Zack & Cloud? Because it's Cloud's fate to survive and they need to ensure Zack survive to wasteland because it's his fate to die there. And that's the time when they finally turn side. But Aerith and co. mess with Singularity. Whispers are gone and Zack has no restriction to fight the troops, thus he wins.

I dont think it's The Whisper's need to save Zack as a sort of Planet 'secret weapon' against Sephiroth or something balance. The concept is them being defeated so destiny changes... and it means, Zack isn't dead where he should be. I think it's a simple and clear narrative the devs want to convey, like it or not. @Eerie Zack's arrival in the church just as a spirit in Lifestream realm doesn't fit that narrative. Dead is dead, no difference, no help. There's no secret hidden between Remake ending and Intermission ending that he died in between. And what we're supposed to looking forward to in the next part is the consequence of that change. The unknown one.

Is it worse than Original?
Or is it better?

But I believe freedom has a price. If Zack & Aerith was alive and gained the freedom taken away from them in Original, there would be a price and it's steep. And it's scary to think what it is like. Both Zack & Aerith already told you that.

I also think he would show up either at Nibelheim or at Temple of Ancient, depend on the ending of part 2 would take place. But I'm sure Zack will show up at ending. One of two Clouds would probably become a full of Sephiroth Copy and Zack would take Black Materia to keep it safe from them, who knows.
 
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Did they defeat fate, or did they make fate happen?
I don't remember any watery passage. It never occured to me that that fight took place literally inside the Lifestream. Is that canon? Is the Aerith's world v Sephiroth's world canon? Is Zack in Sephiroth's world?
Are there two Hojos?
Wouldn't Sephiroth want to go back in time to a time when Gast was still alive?
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
No the battle didn't "happen in the Lifestream."

It happened in the Singularity. However, the Singularity is a space created by and filled with the Whispers, which are beings of spirit energy that are from the future meant to protect the Planet's fate. So, it's a space composed of spirit energy. So one can say accurately it's a space similar to the Lifestream, but to say it is the Lifestream is speculation at best.

Furthermore, the commentary about Aerith's world of water reminiscent of Holy and Sephiroth's world of Meteor is from the Ultimania, and it's describing the artistic scene direction and composition of the cutscene before the final battle with Sephiroth begins. It's a statement of artistic direction. Whether it's textually literal is anyone's guess but it does speak to the fact that they are in a spiritual space within the Singularity. And it's reflecting the intentions of both.

And why would Sephiroth care about Gast of all people? Sephiroth clearly only cares about averting the world's ultimate end in the distant future, which only he clearly seems to know about. Gast wouldn't be someone able to avert that fate. Cloud however is.
 
All worlds have to end eventually.
It's such a wierd change of direction for a villain who originally wanted to sail through the cosmos using the husk of the planet as his vessel. Did he reach that point and realise he'd been wrong all along?
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Sephiroth wants to live forever, so naturally he'd want the world he wishes to claim to exist forever as well.

....Maybe, he decided to sail the cosmos in search of a new planet with the remains of a dead one because he realizes his plan failed. Therefore he wants to try again :awesome:
 

Thenir

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nirnaeth
I dont think it's The Whisper's need to save Zack as a sort of Planet 'secret weapon' against Sephiroth or something balance. The concept is them being defeated so destiny changes... and it means, Zack isn't dead where he should be. I think it's a simple and clear narrative the devs want to convey, like it or not.
Yes but the group defeated the Harbinger 3 months after Zack's death. The natural expectation is that nothing will interfere from now on with any possible future change.
But what we saw in Zack's sequences is a retroactive change of a past event, that seemingly didn't alter the present timeline (Cloud is still SOLDIER-Cloud, which requires Zack's death). Something else must have happened to allow such a big change, be it Aerith's spell on the dimensional portal (in that case, is she even aware of it?), Sephiroth or whatever else.

their concept is new and created for Remake, think that they always exist in Compilation universe and we just didn't see them visibly on CC ending.
True, but I think the whispers appear just when something/someone messes with the preconstituted order of events, meaning that whatever characters do and say is already part of a determined fate. The whispers don't interfere with it: Zack died because the army overwhelmed him; Cloud survived because the infantrymen left him die alone.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Just to be clear, yes, this is what I was talking about:


They are quite clear that Aerith represents the Lifestream and Sephiroth the world of Meteor.

Audrey said:
Here's the Japanese quote for the Lifestream vs Meteor comment: エアリスを象徴するライフストリームの世界とセフィロスを象徴するメテオの世界の対峙は、二人の対決を暗示している重要なシーンです。最強の敵セフィロスの登場にふさわしい、破壊しつくされたメテオの世界にぜひ注目してください

Chapter 18 is typically a reference to CoLW vs CoLB. To me, it's very clear. We see both fighting through Cloud. The shenanigans definitely happen with Zack though.
 

ultima786

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ultima
Just to be clear, yes, this is what I was talking about:


They are quite clear that Aerith represents the Lifestream and Sephiroth the world of Meteor.



Chapter 18 is typically a reference to CoLW vs CoLB. To me, it's very clear. We see both fighting through Cloud. The shenanigans definitely happen with Zack though.
This would be worth getting a second translator’s eye on it… @Ultimasamune ??? Luv u
 

LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
I've been rethinking about the few Zack scenes we got, plus the Ultimanias and ToTP, plus reading here and there theories about Zack being already dead. I must say that this theory does hold a lot of merits, especially in the light of ToTP, but I think... it's a little bit different. The devs have made too many comments about the different Stamps, but also if characters that should be dead aren't, then maybe it's in another world.


The chapter that changes everything is called Destiny's Crossroads and we see Zack seemingly alive at the end. The interesting points:

- we see Zack in his Last Stand and Aerith is taunted by Sephiroth to... do whatever she does to the portal, creating a Singularity (and more?) with this vision
- we see Zack victorious... but we also see an ads with a different Stamp than the one we saw and were pointed at several times during part 1
- Zack is seen alive and carrying Cloud after his famous Last Stand where he should have died - but the OG depicted him dying to 3 mere grunts
- Aerith reacts to this by mourning Zack (the sky... I hate it) - Nomura casually dropped that she hates the sky because it took away her beloved ones, Ifalna AND Zack
- Zack is seen alone at the church in sector 5, with the church full of people
- in ToTP the way Aerith describes Elmyra's husband returning to her lets one think about Zack at the end of Intergrade: he does not realise he's dead and "walked" a long journey to come back to her; in the same way people don't seem to notice Zack in the church, as if he was not there
- the devs insist that the story of FFVII will go on as we know it - and FFVII is Cloud's story, a story of loss and life

This begs a few questions:

- what did Aerith do exactly?
- why is Zack alone in front of the church - where is Cloud?
- who are the people in the church?
- in parallel, is Biggs truly alive, and if so, are Jessie and Wedge also alive?

So, my current theory is that... Zack is neither dead or alive (no please don't run!).

It all comes down to Aerith being taunted by that vision of Zack's Last Stand. As per Crisis Core, Zack should have died there. As per the OG, he died killed by three grunts. So if Remake is a reinterpretation of the OG+Compilation, it does make sense that we have Zack having his Last Stand and then being killed by three grunts. Except for all the hints that something else is going on.

We also know that Zack's death has a huge impact on Cloud and it has to happen; so it did, in our timeline anyway. Did Aerith change the past with her singularity? Did we get a new timeline with Zack going on in adventures on the side, trying to find wtf happened to Aerith? Maybe. As @ultima786 pointed it in this thread, there is some WTF copying of Midgar going on at that point of the story. So we know it is possible to have a copy of the real world inside the Lifestream (ha, you see me coming back with my idea that the Lifestream connects all those realities, uh? XD).

So do I think Zack died? In a way, yes. He was shot by those three grunts after coming out victorious from his Last Stand (as this diverge from CC, Stamp is different because a new timeline/world has been created to contain this). BUT Aerith did save him in a way; her singularity has some deep shenanigans going on. Zack did not realise that he had died, in his quest to reunite with Aerith - as such we know that the souls who are like him usually travel through the Lifestream until their goal is reached. But he did not exactly end up in the Lifestream. He ended up in a copy of it, in a parallel world, where those who do not wish to die (or realise) but died ended up - the people in the church are I think also dead. They are in a new reality that is slightly different from our timeline, and contrarily to souls in the Lifestream, they don't dissolve in it. It may simply cover all the souls that died in the time covered by the singularity (starting end of September then, when Zack fought his Last Stand, until the party escaped Midgar).

Why? I think the first idea is to touch death and its aftermaths differently than what they did in the OG. In the OG, they made us attached (or not :D) to Aerith right before killing her and cruelly taking her away. Of course, this will also happen in Remake; but it won't have the same impact as it did the first time around. I remember that before Remake was released, I chatted with @Maidenofwar and told her that it would be great for Aerith fans if we could see what she did in the Lifestream after her death this time around. Ultimately, this is what is, IMHO, happening. They are just preparing this; I also thought that with Intergrade they amped up the Zerith reunion and I do think it will happen there, in this sort of afterlife. It is most probable that they will also show up in the final fight against Sephiroth. but why the need to create an alternative world for this? This alternative world, that is definitely located *inside* the Lifestream, also allows for characters to not dissolve yet and to expand on the afterlife. We know only rare souls can not dissolve in the Lifestream through their strong resolve, and it's not what's happening there. This new world was created to protect Zack by Aerith, even if unknowingly. This would explain why she has that line about the sky, because she knows that Zack is not here anymore, and it would also explains why he shows up alone in front of the church (where is Cloud in this scene?? Where are Zack's wounds???). But he's not truly dead in the sense of FFVII yet. Hence why Zack is neither dead or alive.

For Biggs, the question is more tricky because he's shown in a bed with bandages on his head. Let us say that I think that Toriyama's comment is pointing out at Jessie rather than Biggs... I'd say Biggs is the extra joker card because he's being treaten at the Leaf orphanage, unlike Zack who showed up suddenly without any wound. But maybe it is also including Biggs, I don't know. I've felt strongly that if one of the Avalanche trio should live, then it had to be Biggs because he was the one less expanded upon in part 1, the one we had less chance to bond with.

Thank you for putting up with this crazy theory up until now. I'm off to hide because even per my standards, it's a bit out there lol XD


This has been my theory since the Yuffie DLC came out. I brought it up on here, but didn't use nearly as many words lol. No need to run away and hide. I got the idea from "Maiden who travels the Planet." Even though it's not canon, that doesn't mean the developers can't "pull" from it
 

TurquoiseHammer

Pro Adventurer
This would be worth getting a second translator’s eye on it… @Ultimasamune ??? Luv u
This standoff between the world of the Lifestream, which symbolizes Aerith, and the world of Meteor, which symbolizes Sephiroth, is a pivotal scene that hints at a showdown between the two. Please pay particular attention to the ravaged world of Meteor, a suitable place for our most fearsome villain Sephiroth to make his appearance.

Pretty much the same as Audrey's, although she swapped the symbolizers and symbols.
 

ultima786

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ultima
This standoff between the world of the Lifestream, which symbolizes Aerith, and the world of Meteor, which symbolizes Sephiroth, is a pivotal scene that hints at a showdown between the two. Please pay particular attention to the ravaged world of Meteor, a suitable place for our most fearsome villain Sephiroth to make his appearance.

Pretty much the same as Audrey's, although she swapped the symbolizers and symbols.
You are amazing as always. This really feels like they were trying to make something symbolic, and lots of spiritual energy and imagery is what is happening here. It’s another realm, and this may explain some of the insanity. I hope part 2 alludes more to the imagery powers of Sephiroth
 

Roundhouse

Pro Adventurer
You all should come to the discord too, always theorising there, and some of the stuff you have posted is very interesting to discuss. As for Zack, the most likely secnario to me, at the moment, is the alt timeline scenario...but maybe in a way where the alt line merges with the normal one at one or more points, which will enable him to talk to Cloud and co for the drama. The idea that he is in the actual main timeline is intriguing, but I need more evidence for that before I'm sold on it...
 

Fiz

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Eh?
What I would like to see...

All characters on the table, our decisions change character fates and conclusions. Plot roughly following the OG with deviations leading into multiple ending scenarios.

With the Witcher Season 2 coming I restarted Witcher 3 and went for a different ending and an excuse to play those expansions. I really like the *philosophy* behind that game.

You can mess it up and get a tragic ending, but then you have the good endings - each with a win, but different forms of disadvantage.

The first time I played that game I found those decisions really difficult. I even sat for about an hour considering Yen or Triss... it felt like that shit mattered. It’s not best girl, it’s best future for Geralt, for Ciri and for the world. Then Ciris fate... do you go for what’s best for the world or best for her. The political situation wasn’t easy either - I can argue for and against for both positive conclusion. Who we support in Skellige, another difficult - although easier - decision.

Basically, the dynamic story telling in that game is streamlined into a common central narrative and the decisions we make felt like they carry weight, and aren’t easy because they aren’t good or bad, they’re all just complicated.

I love that; and with “Destiny off the rails”, I’d love to see SE do something with a similar philosophy with 7.
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
I think that people who wish a TW3 kind of game for Remake will be disappointed... there are about 99.99% chances it's simply not happening. Especially not with how ToTP, the backbone of the story, was written. It's 100% FFVII OG that's replaying in front of our eyes, with changes of course, but the main story definitely is on board to remain the same. And we'll have no choice on this.
 

Fiz

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Eh?
I think that people who wish a TW3 kind of game for Remake will be disappointed... there are about 99.99% chances it's simply not happening. Especially not with how ToTP, the backbone of the story, was written. It's 100% FFVII OG that's replaying in front of our eyes, with changes of course, but the main story definitely is on board to remain the same. And we'll have no choice on this.

I don’t disagree tbh. It was more what I would like to see. My ideal scenario.

I don’t think it’s as high as 99.99% for it not happening though. I wouldn’t like to put a number on it, but I think it’s a large enough possibility that it’s worth considering, but not worth hedging our hopes on.

It’s 2021, likely 2023 when it drops. The gaming landscape is changing and they seem to be taking risks. So, it’s possible, even if not the most likely scenario.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
The formula might open up a bit more than in Midgar, but the chapter structure isn't going anywhere, and FF7's story isn't really changing at a structural level, so don't expect a "roam wherever you please" sort of game. Even FF7 original isn't really like that until the very end.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
The formula might open up a bit more than in Midgar, but the chapter structure isn't going anywhere, and FF7's story isn't really changing at a structural level, so don't expect a "roam wherever you please" sort of game. Even FF7 original isn't really like that until the very end.

I was noting that the other day when I was thinking about how much they could change stuff around/switch things: the answer is, not that much considering how we were forced to move from a point to another until way down in the story. The only very obvious thing that they can easily skip is Fort Condor since we'll be back there later on. And I'm not even sure we will lol. The geography of the map simply doesn't allow for much free room until we get the Highwind.

Also, technically speaking, Remake gave a game where your choices don't really matter for the story. The resolutions? All happened, even if you get only one. The rest? Literally no real impacting choice. Unlike the OG, I strongly feel that they are telling the canon story and won't let anyone escape it, saying it's all down to player's choice etc. I did feel in part 1 that they were au contraire embracing their canon Compilation, and be like "deal with it". Which is also why I don't see Remake at all like a TW3 type of game.
 
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ultima786

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ultima
I want a really compelling reason for the Whisper Harbinger fight in chapter 18 and the entire Sephiroth battle. My ideal scenario is some sort of Lifestream and Jenova illusion powers. So they need to explain well why Sephiroth has easy access to the spiritual world of FF7 and how he can slice it open anytime, as he did before the end battle opening that portal.

I don’t want the answer to be “Uhh, anime?”
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Smooth Criminal
I mean. You can tell yourself the Whispers are "Lifestream of the future" then. :monster:

In the end, that's simply what they are. They're the spirit energy that exists from the Planet's future, intervening to ensure their existence isn't erased by the present.

I don't see what's so impenetrable about Chapter 18 now that we've had Intergrade, Intermission and the Ultimania Plus to contextualize what went down. The future of the Planet is in play here. The mechanics for how and why are unknown, but we aren't confused about what's happening.

Sephiroth from the far off future is aware of the mortal fate of the Planet and wishes to forestall it for his own selfish reasons. He attempts to do this by cleaving off the Whispers and bending them to his will. Clearly, whatever he intends to do is something that inevitably puts humanity's existence at risk, and puts him in direct opposition to Cloud and the others.

And now, this future Sephiroth's existence and connection to his present self is firmly established. Which, when combined with the Planet being cut off from controlling how things unfold, leaves FFVII's unfolding to experience unknown variances. Including weird unknown shit like Zack seemingly walking around in another world, along with other characters.

So the reason for chapter 18, Intermisson's ending, and everything else, is to make it 100% clear we're not going to just re-experience the very same FFVII; there's something more hidden behind the shadows that connects everything. And clearly Sephiroth knows it too.
 
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Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Maybe they can?

I suppose the Whispers could come back, but I think the implication of the ending makes it clear that the Whispers were shutdown and blown up when Sephiroth was defeated and they all turned into that golden dust. Golden dust that seemingly fell across Midgar and showed us inexplicable happy outcomes we were not aware of, nor were part of what we saw in FFVII.

Pretty sure that's also made apparent when Aerith says she doesn't feel or hear the future anymore in TTP as well. They seemingly were destroyed along with the Singularity and the Planet can't just simply concoct more.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
That's possible too.

We simply don't know :monster:

But I think, just like the Planet can't just keep popping out Weapons when they're defeated, the Planet can't just create an infinite amount of Arbiters of Fate to keep hopelessly fighting battles on the surface. The Planet has it's limits, and the Whispers died.
 
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