So uh, how is Rufus so strong?

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Uh, actually no he didn't, seeing as how President Shinra loved his son very much and wanted him to inherit the company. Murdering your dad just so you can be a billionaire and leader of a company is a selfish, and sociopathic thing to do.

AVALANCHE did that at first, and they realized they were wrong. So I don't know how you could even compare the two. And his efforts to avert the Meteor Crisis were bullshit. Firing a rocket at Meteor wouldn't do shit except waste materia that could be used to actually stop the source; Sephiroth.

Did you just suddenly forget the entire plot and themes of FFVII in your Rufus fapping or something? He's still a prick.

Well, just to make sure we're all on the same page, I looked up the definition of 'prick [obscene insult]' and the sites I consulted tended to agree it meant someone who is worthless, stupid, and ridiculous. I would not want to claim that Rufus is a nice guy or a heroic self-sacrificing saviour of the world, but I do contend that he is not worthless, not stupid, and not ridiculous. So maybe we are merely arguing over semantics.

I think we had the discussion about Shinra's plans to avert the Meteor crisis on another thread, and the concensus was that if they'd had all the huge materia it might possibly have worked. It certainly wasn't bullshit, and given that Rufus knew nothing about what Aerith had done, was just about the only hope anyone had to offer.

After nearly dying, Rufus also subsequently realised he was wrong. I realise this is debateable, but DOC makes it clear, I think, that Rufus is sincere about atoning.

No, Mako, I have not forgotten the plot or the themes, or the fact that in this game nobody is either perfectly good or perfectly bad (except maybe Aerith) and everybody has a shot at redemption, though not all of them take their chance. To dismiss Rufus as a mere worthless and ridiculous person is to misunderstand his character and the role he plays in the story.

 

[Makoeyes987]

What? Where in the world was it ever said that using all of the Huge Materia could've worked and stopped Meteor?

For one, if you let them do their plan in FFVII, it does absolutely nothing because Meteor can regenerate itself. It's not a true Meteor. It's a spell. Blowing it up does absolutely nothing. It's a waste of materia.

And now you're arguing semantics. A vernacular insult such as "prick" has more than one meaning depending on its context since it's a pejorative slang insult. That wasn't my meaning of the word at all, nor anyone else's.

 

[Alex]

So uh, how is Rufus so strong?

Furious masturbation.

 

[Bex]

every time i read threads like these i wonder if anyone else realises that video games do, in fact, transcend reality.

 

[Max Payne]

every time i read threads like these i wonder if anyone else realises that video games do, in fact, transcend reality.

Especially when they're so painfully anime.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Have we really come to the point that we expect only people from SOLDIER to be strong?

The rest of the cast of FFVII shows us otherwise. And the Turks as well. Rufus isn't just some run of the mill, average joe. He's a rich, elitist prick, but clearly he'll throw down if he has to.

I'm not arguing his capability to be strong, I'm just wondering how it happened.

What? Where in the world was it ever said that using all of the Huge Materia could've worked and stopped Meteor?

For one, if you let them do their plan in FFVII, it does absolutely nothing because Meteor can regenerate itself. It's not a true Meteor. It's a spell. Blowing it up does absolutely nothing. It's a waste of materia.

And now you're arguing semantics. A vernacular insult such as "prick" has more than one meaning depending on its context since it's a pejorative slang insult. That wasn't my meaning of the word at all, nor anyone else's.

What Gale is saying here is that Rufus did everything in his power and knowledge to avert the crisis and stop Sephiroth. Granted, it was for his own selfish reasons, but come on, who really wants to die?

I mean, as far as stopping Sephiroth and Meteor, Rufus was being logical. He threw his entire company into trying to find a way to stop what was going on. I mean, from his perspective, what else could he have done? He had no reason to believe Cloud and C.o could do it.

 

[Roger]

What? Where in the world was it ever said that using all of the Huge Materia could've worked and stopped Meteor?

For one, if you let them do their plan in FFVII, it does absolutely nothing because Meteor can regenerate itself. It's not a true Meteor. It's a spell. Blowing it up does absolutely nothing. It's a waste of materia.

And now you're arguing semantics. A vernacular insult such as "prick" has more than one meaning depending on its context since it's a pejorative slang insult. That wasn't my meaning of the word at all, nor anyone else's.

A waste of Materia as opposed to... What? It's not like AVALANCHE even had an alternative at the time. They did the only they could to stop the Meteor.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Unless people have forgotten what materia is, it serves no purpose to destroy a shit load of Ancient planetary wisdom that could be used to actually oppose the person who cast the spell that's potentially going to shatter the planet. It was Shinra that caused the situation in the first place thanks to their biological research that birthed Sephiroth, and considering Cloud and the others were the only ones who were actually confronting their self-created threat humanity, it seems silly that they wouldn't listen to what they knew of it, and instead...opted to just publically execute them.

Yeah, Rufus was trying to save the planet, but he wasn't exactly doing it the best possible way either, since he was purposefully going against the very group of people who knew of what Sephiroth was doing personally and instead, opted to scapegoat them instead of use their knowledge and experiences to his advantage to stop them.

A waste of Materia as opposed to... What? It's not like AVALANCHE even had an alternative at the time. They did the only they could to stop the Meteor.

Their alternative was to kill Sephiroth, who was holding back Holy which would stop Meteor and avert the crisis. That's what they were doing and Cloud's party knew that was the only way to avert disaster.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Their alternative was to kill Sephiroth, who was holding back Holy which would stop Meteor and avert the crisis.

That's what they were trying to do, and they may have succeeded if they didn't fall apart and AVALANCHE did it first.

Unless people have forgotten what materia is, it serves no purpose to destroy a shit load of Ancient planetary wisdom that could be used to actually oppose the person who cast the spell that's potentially going to shatter the planet. It was Shinra that caused the situation in the first place thanks to their biological research that birthed Sephiroth, and considering Cloud and the others were the only ones who were actually confronting their self-created threat humanity, it seems silly that they wouldn't listen to what they knew of it, and instead...opted to just publically execute them.

Yeah, Rufus was trying to save the planet, but he wasn't exactly doing it the best possible way either, since he was purposefully going against the very group of people who knew of what Sephiroth was doing personally and instead, opted to scapegoat them instead of use their knowledge and experiences to his advantage to stop them.

Keep in mind Mako, I'm not arguing that the Huge Materia thing could have worked, it couldn't have. I'm just saying that Rufus really was doing what was available to him and everyone else at Shinra. I doubt the plan was just Rufus yelling 'DO IT!'. While there wasn't really too much time to spare, Rufus seems to have at least an ounce of intelligence to have the idea researched and revised before doing it (no doubt it was a rush job, though). Granted, they were wrong, but there are a lot of things that end up not working that were researched with the best knowledge that was available at the time.

However you're right that Rufus fucked up on trying to execute Cloud and Co. instead of at least calling a mutual truce until Sephiroth was defeated. However, Rufus has no special reason to believe that Cloud, etc were capable of stopping Sephiroth/Meteor (especially after Aerith died, and if she didn't, Shinra would have definitely tried to capture her to figure out a way out of being Meteored), especially when they have a world government, a professional army, several special forces, and total control over the weapons trade and research.

I mean, who would, really?

 

[Makoeyes987]

That's what they were trying to do, and they may have succeeded if they didn't fall apart and AVALANCHE did it first.

You really think that?

For one, no one in Shinra would've been able to handle all the monsters and shit Sephiroth threw at them. Then of course Jenova. And all forms of Sephiroth that are fought. And then there's Sephiroth's spirit that only Cloud could've fought in the first place.

Keep in mind Mako, I'm not arguing that the Huge Materia thing could have worked, it couldn't have. I'm just saying that Rufus really was doing what was available to him and everyone else at Shinra.

I'm not saying that's not true, either. My point is, though, is that they weren't enough and instead of just relying on themselves, when they were the ones that caused the shit in the first place, Rufus could've worked WITH Cloud and the others. But he was too arrogant to think of that. He would've chosen to kill them instead.

I doubt the plan was just Rufus yelling 'DO IT!'. While there wasn't really too much time to spare, Rufus seems to have at least an ounce of intelligence to have the idea researched and revised before doing it (no doubt it was a rush job, though). Granted, they were wrong, but there are a lot of things that end up not working that were researched with the best knowledge that was available at the time.

Uh, how would he have researched anything with Hojo going utterly fucking insane, and choosing to blow up Midgar for Sephiroth? Again. There was no way Shinra could've won. They were doomed. There was no way they could've kept themselves together perfectly. It was all built on a foundation of lies, and insanity.

However you're right that Rufus fucked up on trying to execute Cloud and Co. instead of at least calling a mutual truce until Sephiroth was defeated. However, Rufus has no special reason to believe that Cloud, etc were capable of stopping Sephiroth/Meteor (especially after Aerith died, and if she didn't, Shinra would have definitely tried to capture her to figure out a way out of being Meteored), especially when they have a world government, a professional army, several special forces, and total control over the weapons trade and research.

I mean, who would, really?

Cloud and the others were the only ones who came close to Sephiroth and actually understanding what his aims were. That alone is enough credence to listen to them, and he did hear what they had to say somewhat when they were on board the Highwind, but guess what he opted to do.

Kill them to gain publicity. Bullpies, he was a wanker and he made a shit choice due to his own ambition and fucked up personality back then. He and Shinra knew they were in the wrong and this was a crisis of their own making, but they chose to shove it off on Cloud's team and score big with the people.

There wasn't a way for Shinra to win by themselves.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

For one, no one in Shinra would've been able to handle all the monsters and shit Sephiroth threw at them. Then of course Jenova. And all forms of Sephiroth that are fought. And then there's Sephiroth's spirit that only Cloud could've fought in the first place.

Their professional army. SOLDIER. The Turks. And in light of the Compilation, Deepground (and possibly Weiss and Friends but I don't know exactly what they were doing down there at that point in the timeline). And if they were really smart, they would have tried to forge some sort of alliance with the Wusheng since all of them were going to die anyway.

That last point is a longshot, but still, they have more of less the entire armed forces of the planet on their side. Among fictional depictions of the end of the world, Gaia is actually lucky in the fact that there aren't a bunch of countries kicking each others asses while the doomsday clock is counting down; anyone important with guns in FF7 works for Shinra.

I mean would you really expect them to just sit on their asses? The world was ending, they had to try.

Uh, how would he have researched anything with Hojo going utterly fucking insane, and choosing to blow up Midgar for Sephiroth? Again. There was no way Shinra could've won. They were doomed. There was no way they could've kept themselves together perfectly. It was all built on a foundation of lies, and insanity.

Hojo isn't the only one in the Science Department, he's not their only competent mind, and if anything it's their bad they listened to his crazy ass as long as they did. They really should have fired/killed his ass as soon as he served his purpose. Nobody would have missed him.

I'm not saying that's not true, either. My point is, though, is that they weren't enough and instead of just relying on themselves, when they were the ones that caused the shit in the first place, Rufus could've worked WITH Cloud and the others. But he was too arrogant to think of that. He would've chosen to kill them instead.

Cloud and the others were the only ones who came close to Sephiroth and actually understanding what his aims were. That alone is enough credence to listen to them, and he did hear what they had to say somewhat when they were on board the Highwind, but guess what he opted to do.

Kill them to gain publicity. Bullpies, he was a wanker and he made a shit choice due to his own ambition and fucked up personality back then. He and Shinra knew they were in the wrong and this was a crisis of their own making, but they chose to shove it off on Cloud's team and score big with the people.

Yeah I agree this is what fucked them over.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Their professional army. SOLDIER. The Turks. And in light of the Compilation, Deepground (and possibly Weiss and Friends but I don't know exactly what they were doing down there at that point in the timeline). And if they were really smart, they would have tried to forge some sort of alliance with the Wusheng since all of them were going to die anyway.

Seeing as how Deepground was at the time, completely free of the control of the Restrictors, and they hated Shinra with a passion, and were actually hoping for the end of the world, I highly doubt Rosso, Azul, Nero, or Weiss would be inclined to do anything Shinra said for the sake of humanity. They would not give a fuck at all, but would just enjoy the chaos and bloodshed. The Turks could barely handle AVALANCHE and Zirconaide. Reno and Rude had trouble with Sephiroth's remnants in AC. And Shinra's best SOLDIER 1st Class either defected, died, or turned into their enemies. Jenova was able to slaughter several grunts and MPs. Sephiroth would massacre them. And even if by some miracle they were able to win, his spirit would still exist and keep Holy back and they'd fail and die.

Hojo isn't the only one in the Science Department, he's not their only competent mind, and if anything it's their bad they listened to his crazy ass as long as they did. They really should have fired/killed his ass as soon as he served his purpose. Nobody would have missed him.

Hojo is the only scientist who knows anything conclusive regarding Jenova and its project history. And he destroyed all of Gast's notes and the only record that exists within Shinra are in his head. No one, save for Cloud and the rest, know as much about Jenova save for him.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Seeing as how Deepground was at the time, completely free of the control of the Restrictors, and they hated Shinra with a passion, and were actually hoping for the end of the world, I highly doubt Rosso, Azul, Nero, or Weiss would be inclined to do anything Shinra said for the sake of humanity. They would not give a fuck at all, but would just enjoy the chaos and bloodshed. The Turks could barely handle AVALANCHE and Zirconaide. Reno and Rude had trouble with Sephiroth's remnants in AC. And Shinra's best SOLDIER 1st Class either defected, died, or turned into their enemies. Jenova was able to slaughter several grunts and MPs. Sephiroth would massacre them. And even if by some miracle they were able to win, his spirit would still exist and keep Holy back and they'd fail and die.

Like I said, I wasn't aware of what Deepground was doing at the time.

However, the full mobilization of the entirity of their armed forces, including what was left of SOLDIER (and yes, SOLDIER still existed, regardless of how comparatively small it is now, Shinra still has a special forces of super soldiers under their thumb.)

The efforts and possible outcomes of a full scale mobilization and attack of an army are a bit (a lot) different than the results of isolated incidents such as Jenova's rampage through Shinra HQ and whatnot. Such an invasion could be staged in a manner where each aspect of Shinra's armed forces would tackle what would be capable for them; i.e. the Turks wouldn't be the ones facing off the monster hordes, however they could scout out the best possible path for the army to handle them, while SOLDIER mounts a forward attack against the stronger beasts and eventually to the heart of Sephiroth himself.

Yeah his will would have won out anyway but it's not like Shinra had absolutely nothing in their court either.

Hojo is the only scientist who knows anything conclusive regarding Jenova and its project history. And he destroyed all of Gast's notes and the only record that exists within Shinra are in his head. No one, save for Cloud and the rest, know as much about Jenova save for him.

I'm not talking about that aspect, remember, I was talking about the viability of using Materia to put in a rocket. Like I said, it didn't work and it couldn't have worked, but Rufus probably had the idea researched by the science department.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Y
Cloud and the others were the only ones who came close to Sephiroth and actually understanding what his aims were. That alone is enough credence to listen to them, and he did hear what they had to say somewhat when they were on board the Highwind, but guess what he opted to do.

Kill them to gain publicity. Bullpies, he was a wanker and he made a shit choice due to his own ambition and fucked up personality back then. He and Shinra knew they were in the wrong and this was a crisis of their own making, but they chose to shove it off on Cloud's team and score big with the people.

There wasn't a way for Shinra to win by themselves.

Yes, but hang on - when they last saw Cloud, in the Crater, he gave the Black Materia to Sephiroth for a second time, and apparently contributed to unleashing the Weapons on the world. How exactly is this meant to win his allies credence in the eyes of Rufus and Shinra?

Anyway, MOG, to answer your original question, I'd speculate that he got strong at least in part by being so close to the Turks for more than three years. Exactly what they did to keep him busy and occupied during his long imprisonment is not specified, but they could have been training him.

 

[null.]

Is this the same Rufus that got shot in the face by a fucking WEAPON and lived? He's a boss, man. (Literally and figuratively!)

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah his will would have won out anyway but it's not like Shinra had absolutely nothing in their court either.

Well I agree with that. But yeah, in the end, if by some miracle Sephiroth somehow lost in a battle, he'd still win in the end. But I'm still dubious of the claim that they'd be able to beat him in all out war. Save for them being able to land a direct hit on him with the Sister Ray (which they couldn't since he's underground and the cannon ended up going to shit thanks to Hojo) I don't think anyone else could've stopped him. At least, anyone who would be willing to challenge them and help save the world.

Yes, but hang on - when they last saw Cloud, in the Crater, he gave the Black Materia to Sephiroth for a second time, and apparently contributed to unleashing the Weapons on the world. How exactly is this meant to win his allies credence in the eyes of Rufus and Shinra?

Considering by then, if Shinra were smart, they'd at least hear the explanation as to why it happened and it being a result of their own Jenova Project, I don't think Shinra would be in any position to hold that against him. Since..they were the ones responsible for Sephiroth having control of several people who endured Shinra's human experiments.

Is this the same Rufus that got shot in the face by a fucking WEAPON and lived? He's a boss, man. (Literally and figuratively!)

I'm only replying to this to say your icon is win.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Well I agree with that. But yeah, in the end, if by some miracle Sephiroth somehow lost in a battle, he'd still win in the end. But I'm still dubious of the claim that they'd be able to beat him in all out war. Save for them being able to land a direct hit on him with the Sister Ray (which they couldn't since he's underground and the cannon ended up going to shit thanks to Hojo) I don't think anyone else could've stopped him. At least, anyone who would be willing to challenge them and help save the world.

I think the problem with this rationale is that it assumes that there is absolutely nobody anywhere near the level of Cloud and Co. on the entire planet. I agree that Cloud's party was the single most powerful group of people on the planet, and they won due to 1. Cloud and his fighting ability and will 2. Group coherency and competency 3. Their knowledge on Sephiroth and his plans. Besides Cloud's will being the only one that could overcome Sephiroths (which would be the reason that I agree Shinra would have lost in the end no matter what), there is no particular special quality that AVALANCHE possesses that nobody else has when it comes to combat potential.

Genetically enhanced supersoldiers? Shinra has those by the assload. Martial artists with super strength? It could be argued that Rude is about as strong/skilled as Tifa. Reno and Tseng might be as competent as Barret and Cid, and so forth.

Yes, AVALANCHE is amazingly strong. But Shinra also has an organized army, massive numbers, and individuals that aren't too far from AVALANCHE on an individual basis (and more of them).

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think the problem with this rationale is that it assumes that there is absolutely nobody anywhere near the level of Cloud and Co. on the entire planet. I agree that Cloud's party was the single most powerful group of people on the planet, and they won due to 1. Cloud and his fighting ability and will 2. Group coherency and competency 3. Their knowledge on Sephiroth and his plans. Besides Cloud's will being the only one that could overcome Sephiroths (which would be the reason that I agree Shinra would have lost in the end no matter what), there is no particular special quality that AVALANCHE possesses that nobody else has when it comes to combat potential.

There probably isn't a "special quality," but excluding Deepground's Tsviets, who would be anywhere close to them in terms of power? Where in FFVII is it shown there to be anyone near that level of power? If there was, wouldn't they have been thrown at Sephiroth or AVALANCHE in the first place? The best they had were SOLDIER and the Turks, which Cloud and the others were able to beat. All other forces were either killed, sealed up, or not interested in participating.

Genetically enhanced supersoldiers? Shinra has those by the assload. Martial artists with super strength? It could be argued that Rude is about as strong/skilled as Tifa. Reno and Tseng might be as competent as Barret and Cid, and so forth.

The best SOLDIERs are dead or gone by the time of FFVII. It's just reduced to a bunch of faceless, non-legendary members. They're strong but nothing to write home about.

And Rude being as strong or skilled as Tifa? Rofl. No. Look at AC, and the fact Rude got his ass handed to him repeatedly while not demonstrating anywhere near the level of skill Tifa did.

Yes, AVALANCHE is amazingly strong. But Shinra also has an organized army, massive numbers, and individuals that aren't too far from AVALANCHE on an individual basis (and more of them).

The only way they'd put up a fight is by sheer number of people, and even then, they'd probably all die from the massive amount of monsters residing in the Northern Crater, and Jenova. They wouldn't be able to make a bee-line to Sephiroth, they'd have to do what Cloud and the others did, and fight their way through the entire crater. And again, you're assuming that there would be individuals as powerful as Cloud when the evidence to them existing outside of Deepground, is not even there. Deepground houses the superpowered freaks. And they're not available.

Crisis Core shows that when they examined the crater the first time, they couldn't handle the monsters then. What makes you think they'll be able to handle the shit load of monsters Sephiroth controls now?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

There probably isn't a "special quality," but excluding Deepground's Tsviets, who would be anywhere close to them in terms of power? Where in FFVII is it shown there to be anyone near that level of power? If there was, wouldn't they have been thrown at Sephiroth or AVALANCHE in the first place? The best they had were SOLDIER and the Turks, which Cloud and the others were able to beat. All other forces were either killed, sealed up, or not interested in participating.

AVALANCHE as a whole is stronger than the Turks, the army, and SOLDIER, but what I'm saying is that there are more of them. If say, Cid happens to die, it's a real blow for the team because there goes 1/9 of their entire fighting potential. If SOLDIER 1st Class Billy Bob gets gutted by an Iron Giant, whoops, no big deal, there's about twenty more of those.

The best SOLDIERs are dead or gone by the time of FFVII. It's just reduced to a bunch of faceless, non-legendary members. They're strong but nothing to write home about.

But there's a lot of them.

And Rude being as strong or skilled as Tifa? Rofl. No. Look at AC, and the fact Rude got his ass handed to him repeatedly while not demonstrating anywhere near the level of skill Tifa did.

Tifa fought Loz. Loz beat her ass. Effortlessly. Rude fought Loz. Loz beat his ass. Effortlessly. Yes, Tifa is stronger than Rude, but not exponentially or anything. Tifa did the stuff she did like fighting Bahamut and the Shadow dudes because she got the chance to and Rude didn't.

The only way they'd put up a fight is by sheer number of people, and even then, they'd probably all die from the massive amount of monsters residing in the Northern Crater, and Jenova. They wouldn't be able to make a bee-line to Sephiroth, they'd have to do what Cloud and the others did, and fight their way through the entire crater.

I'm not saying they could or should make a beeline to the crater, they would have to fight through the monsters, but they have the entire armed forces of the planet, plus robots to do that.

Crisis Core shows that when they examined the crater the first time, they couldn't handle the monsters then. What makes you think they'll be able to handle the shit load of monsters Sephiroth controls now?

Because it wasn't the end of the world back then. Back then, exploring the Crater was more of a side project they had along dealing with AVALANCHE, Genesis, and the Wutai remnants. Now, they don't really have any of those problems, and there's no reason why they can't or shouldn't throw their entire armed forces at the Crater.


Keep in mind that none of this happened because of the internal power struggles and Rufus being blown away, keep in mind I'm arguing if hypothetically Shinra tried to send in their forces.

 

[Max Payne]

You seem to forget that Loz was only able to beat Tifa by using his weapon to boost his speed, Rude couldn't handle Loz at all at his base strength and speed.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I got the impression that Loz flat out didn't give a shit during the entire battle and using his speed when he got his phone call and had to 'hurry up and wrap it up' was an example of him showing that, not that he needed it to beat her.

 

[Max Payne]

Loz clearly was trying to hurt her the entire fight. It was obvious that he was about on the same level as she was during the fight. It was until his speed boost that he had the advantage.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I agree, but it was more of a 'hey I'm trying to hurt you but eh' until the phone call, and then it was 'okay im done' and then he beat her.

 

[Makoeyes987]

AVALANCHE as a whole is stronger than the Turks, the army, and SOLDIER, but what I'm saying is that there are more of them. If say, Cid happens to die, it's a real blow for the team because there goes 1/9 of their entire fighting potential. If SOLDIER 1st Class Billy Bob gets gutted by an Iron Giant, whoops, no big deal, there's about twenty more of those.

Roffle, I get your point. But the thing is, is that, that's gonna be happening a lot because most of them probably wouldn't be able to handle the zerg rush of monsters and shit there. By the time they make it to Sephiroth, their numbers would've taken a significant hit. If it was just up to them getting to Sephiroth, I'd agree but Sephiroth has the monsters of the Northern Crater, and Jenova as back up as well.

Tifa fought Loz. Loz beat her ass. Effortlessly. Rude fought Loz. Loz beat his ass. Effortlessly. Yes, Tifa is stronger than Rude, but not exponentially or anything. Tifa did the stuff she did like fighting Bahamut and the Shadow dudes because she got the chance to and Rude didn't.

Key difference being Loz had to go all out and use his weapon and speed to beat her, whereas Rude couldn't even handle Loz holding back. The creators say the Turks are at a significantly lower level of strength than the characters, so I'd say thats a large margin.

I'm not saying they could or should make a beeline to the crater, they would have to fight through the monsters, but they have the entire armed forces of the planet, plus robots to do that.

Perhaps, but again, the monsters would still pose a problem, and who's to say the mako and shit of the Northern Crater wouldn't cause the machinery and mechas to go haywire like it did back when they tried to make it to Minerva? I'm not seeing it.

Because it wasn't the end of the world back then. Back then, exploring the Crater was more of a side project they had along dealing with AVALANCHE, Genesis, and the Wutai remnants. Now, they don't really have any of those problems, and there's no reason why they can't or shouldn't throw their entire armed forces at the Crater.

Interesting point, I'll give you that. But I still think a shitload of Tonberries, Dragon zombies, Iron Giants, and Jenova and her babies and of course Sephiroth would eventually just win the war by sheer attrition.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Roffle, I get your point. But the thing is, is that, that's gonna be happening a lot because most of them probably wouldn't be able to handle the zerg rush of monsters and shit there. By the time they make it to Sephiroth, their numbers would've taken a significant hit. If it was just up to them getting to Sephiroth, I'd agree but Sephiroth has the monsters of the Northern Crater, and Jenova as back up as well.

I forgot about Jenova. Shit. That might shit in Shinra's cereal just a little bit, huh?

However, I'm not arguing that the monsters would cause heavy casualties among the armed forces. However, casualties in the big picture isn't really too much of a deterrent, because they all just die either way. If Shinra by some miracle wins the battle in the Crater with a tenth of their army remaining, it's still a victory because they aren't all dead.

Also, remember that the actions of an army aren't just 'go kill stuff'. There are attack formations, tactics, data from their last incursion in the Crater, and all that other stuff. One advantage an army has over AVALANCHE is that Cloud and co. had very little choice but to brave the depths of the crater with no backup, no intel, no recon, no nothing. They could have been eaten by one of those big ass worm things from Star Wars for all they knew.

Key difference being Loz had to go all out and use his weapon and speed to beat her, whereas Rude couldn't even handle Loz holding back. The creators say the Turks are at a significantly lower level of strength than the characters, so I'd say thats a large margin.

Alright, I'll give you that. Still, they're not entirely worthless.

Perhaps, but again, the monsters would still pose a problem, and who's to say the mako and shit of the Northern Crater wouldn't cause the machinery and mechas to go haywire like it did back when they tried to make it to Minerva? I'm not seeing it.

Alright, so they possibly don't have their robots on their side. Still, they have a giant army.