So uh, how is Rufus so strong?

[Gale]

You know if Shinra wasn't so stingy with it's materia their armed forces would probably be a lot more intimidating.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well DG sure had some fucking awesome materia. I mean, Azul used that same materia that made him completely immune to gun fire and physical attacks. And then those DG Elites had it that made them immune to gunfire. I mean, could you imagine running into a whole army of those?

I think that'd definitely be trouble.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

They probably don't want to expend the time, money, and training required for all of their armed forces to use Materia effectively. Given enough time, Materia use would have been more widespread in their armed forces.

 

[Max Payne]

I never thought that just anyone could use materia.

I mean if they could, then Wutai and several other militias would have devastated Shinra.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I don't think it's a special skill inherent to only certain people. While of course, one person can be better at materia and casting spells than the next, I figure it was something that took either special training or talent to really be worth something.

Also, Wutai and such didn't mass produce Materia like Shinra did. Before Shinra, Materia was a very rare thing.

 

[Mitch Connor]

And any SOLDIER 1st Class could take AVALANCHE? Rofflecopter. Sure. Okay. Care to cite any type of reasoning there? Barring their strongest SOLDIERs, their 1st Class members had trouble with fucking AVALANCHE in BC and monsters in the Shinra Building. I doubt they'd have a cake walk beating down the heroes themselves. Save for maybe Cait Sit h who's just a plushie.

Wow, BC really portrayed SOLDIER as being so weak to the point where 1st class SOLDIER's had trouble fighting normal monsters in the Shin-Ra building? Wtf. that's news to me... I mean SOLDIER, especially 1st class, are supposed to be the most powerful fighters known to the world and they are having trouble with THAT? I know CC made 3rd class look like a joke (how the hell does someone who doesn't like fighting even join SOLDIER?) but I always figured there was a relatively large gap in abilities between 3rd class and the other 2 classes. Honestly the way the compilation has made SOLDIER look, how can they even be referred to as "elite" anymore...

I'm not too surprised about them having trouble with AVALANCHE, as back then they had a special force on the level of SOLDIER anyways.

 

[NoenGaruth]

Food for thought, if indeed Shinra has all this good materia (from what I remember the player had Summons and whatnot in BC) why didn't they give anything decent to Reno, Rude, Tseng and Elena? After all they were fully trained professionals unlike your everyday MP (Elena is a newbie yes, but she has been through the shinra academy so that would still give her a lot of training, plus she fought at Reno and Rude's level when you battle them in the midgar subway). I mean if those guys could've called out Bahamut or used ultima they'd have given AVALANCHE a run for their money.

 

[Max Payne]

I don't think it's a special skill inherent to only certain people. While of course, one person can be better at materia and casting spells than the next, I figure it was something that took either special training or talent to really be worth something.

Also, Wutai and such didn't mass produce Materia like Shinra did. Before Shinra, Materia was a very rare thing.

Materia occurs enough naturally for Avalanche to have found it all over the place, and I've never of Wutai not producing it's own materia.

There's no way Wutai held Shinra back without having it's own supply of materia.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Materia occurs enough naturally for Avalanche to have found it all over the place,

But think about it though, yeah, the player (AVALANCHE) finds a relatively good amount of natural materia, but that's relative because it's only used between 9 (later 8) people and they were traveling all over the world. I don't think there's enough naturally producing materia to supply armies laying around.

and I've never of Wutai not producing it's own materia.

Me neither, but it seems implied that Shinra only had the technology/resources/whatever to mass produce them. It's also stated that Shinra was the one to develop the technology.

There's no way Wutai held Shinra back without having it's own supply of materia.

Good point. I dunno, man!

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Wow, BC really portrayed SOLDIER as being so weak to the point where 1st class SOLDIER's had trouble fighting normal monsters in the Shin-Ra building? Wtf. that's news to me... I mean SOLDIER, especially 1st class, are supposed to be the most powerful fighters known to the world and they are having trouble with THAT? I know CC made 3rd class look like a joke (how the hell does someone who doesn't like fighting even join SOLDIER?) but I always figured there was a relatively large gap in abilities between 3rd class and the other 2 classes. Honestly the way the compilation has made SOLDIER look, how can they even be referred to as "elite" anymore...

yeah i dont get this either

 

[Makoeyes987]

Food for thought, if indeed Shinra has all this good materia (from what I remember the player had Summons and whatnot in BC) why didn't they give anything decent to Reno, Rude, Tseng and Elena? After all they were fully trained professionals unlike your everyday MP (Elena is a newbie yes, but she has been through the shinra academy so that would still give her a lot of training, plus she fought at Reno and Rude's level when you battle them in the midgar subway). I mean if those guys could've called out Bahamut or used ultima they'd have given AVALANCHE a run for their money.

The Turks had some high level materia, just not super awesome, curb stomping materia. There aren't that many characters in SOLDIER we see with high level materia like Ultima, or summons, save for Genesis, Zack and Sephiroth.

I mean, Reno can restrain you in a golden pyramid you can't get out of, lest someone from the outside shatters it. Rude knows mid-to high level cure magic and fire, and Elena can....throw grenades at you and flirt with you, making you confused.

Actually, they apparently seem to have used their materia for elemental defense since they all absorb various elements in their fights. Maybe they just don't...like using that much materia, which makes sense.

 

[ForceStealer]

I never thought that just anyone could use materia.

I mean if they could, then Wutai and several other militias would have devastated Shinra.

I think its somewhere in between. I do think that anyone can use materia, in the sense that its not some innate ability that you either have or you don't. But at the same time, I think it would take training/practice to really know HOW to use it (feeling its power and focusing it and that kinda stuff). I always kinda thought of the in-game materia tutorial was Cloud actually training Barret on how to cast it. And then of course people could be more adept at it than others.

Also, although its the MATERIA that grows in power, not necessarily the person, I don't think just any random schmuck couldn't pick up a mastered Bolt materia and start orchestrating a huge thunderstorm. (I always thought it'd be kinda funny if instead of throwing that materia at Loz, if Marlene cast this little static shock )

I know this tugs us further off-topic, but the world's creatures/monsters. They have magical abilities (sometimes Enemy Skills), do they just have these skills innately or can they also use materia? I guess they would have things innately just like humans have often-magical limit breaks. But could your cat summon Ifrit in the middle of your house should it come across the materia?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I don't think just any random schmuck couldn't pick up a mastered Bolt materia and start orchestrating a huge thunderstorm.

Even within the game, it takes a shitload of MP to use the higher level spells. Hell, you could even look at Sephiroth's inability to use the Black Materia by himself as a storyline adaptation of him not being able to have enough 'MP' to ever cast it without outside assistance.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think its somewhere in between. I do think that anyone can use materia, in the sense that its not some innate ability that you either have or you don't. But at the same time, I think it would take training/practice to really know HOW to use it (feeling its power and focusing it and that kinda stuff). I always kinda thought of the in-game materia tutorial was Cloud actually training Barret on how to cast it. And then of course people could be more adept at it than others.

Materia usage and skill is linked towards your mental power, and intelligence. It takes mental concentration, and skill to use, and eventually it exhausts you physically and mentally. Anyone could do it with practice, but it's like with any other skill or mental exercise. It takes practice.

Also, although its the MATERIA that grows in power, not necessarily the person, I don't think just any random schmuck couldn't pick up a mastered Bolt materia and start orchestrating a huge thunderstorm. (I always thought it'd be kinda funny if instead of throwing that materia at Loz, if Marlene cast this little static shock )

You're right. It also takes spirit energy. A high level, mastered materia would eventually require more mental and spiritual power to fully use. If someone who had no skill or idea of what they were doing, tried to use a high level materia that required a high level of spirit energy and skill, like Ultima, they'd probably end up hurting themselves to the point of exhaustion, or miscasting the spell, like Yuffie did in BC.

I know this tugs us further off-topic, but the world's creatures/monsters. They have magical abilities (sometimes Enemy Skills), do they just have these skills innately or can they also use materia? I guess they would have things innately just like humans have often-magical limit breaks. But could your cat summon Ifrit in the middle of your house should it come across the materia?

How would a monster use materia?

Enemy skills are just that..skills that are inherent to the monster.

I doubt a cat would be able to use materia since it requires intelligence and a mind to use materia.

 

[ForceStealer]

Well, there are intelligent monsters.

And Yuffie miscast in BC? Interesting, I didn't know about that.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well, there are intelligent monsters.

And Yuffie miscast in BC? Interesting, I didn't know about that.

She blew up an AVALANCHE base in Wutai by accident while playing with the Turk's materia.

Intelligent monsters? Okay, maybe you're referring to those humanoid Jemnezymy, Snow, and Pollensalta ladies. I wouldn't really call them "monsters." They're more like..sexy...seductive cave witches that want to kill you and take your shit.

Can't think of any monsters that are particularly smart.

 

[Max Payne]

She blew up an AVALANCHE base in Wutai by accident while playing with the Turk's materia.

Intelligent monsters? Okay, maybe you're referring to those humanoid Jemnezymy, Snow, and Pollensalta ladies. I wouldn't really call them "monsters." They're more like..sexy...seductive cave witches that want to kill you and take your shit.

Can't think of any monsters that are particularly smart.

That's because they're never presented in any real manner past battle scenes.

I'm sure there are some smart monsters just like there are smart animals in the real world.

 

[ForceStealer]

And then there's those joker things with the cards by Gold Saucer, and the Weapons

And I would have thought even robots or remotely-controlled machines could cast magic due to Cait Sith. But I suppose that's not the case with that stupid "Inspire" stuff.

 

[Makoeyes987]

And then there's those joker things with the cards by Gold Saucer, and the Weapons

That's right. The Jokers... don't know whats up with those guys. Guess they're like a gang of crazy sorcerers or something that like killing people.

WEAPONs are more than just monsters, I'd say.

And I would have thought even robots or remotely-controlled machines could cast magic due to Cait Sith. But I suppose that's not the case with that stupid "Inspire" stuff.

Machinery can somehow be made to use materia. We don't know the specific, but remember, the VR training facilities use biorhythm materia and VR materia to generate all those enemies and locales to test SOLDIERs. And in Before Crisis, the Shinra company had that "Copy" materia that was able to make clones of people and shit.

 

[Max Payne]

WEAPONs are more than just monsters, I'd say.

Yeah, they're big world endy monsters. They're a defense system just like the smoke monster in LOST>

 

[ForceStealer]

Machinery can somehow be made to use materia. We don't know the specific, but remember, the VR training facilities use biorhythm materia and VR materia to generate all those enemies and locales to test SOLDIERs. And in Before Crisis, the Shinra company had that "Copy" materia that was able to make clones of people and shit.

I knew machines could use materia as a source of power, but I did forget about the VR one, good point.

 

[SOLDIERis1337]

Not to bring up an old debate, but I don't think 1st class SOLDIERs are being given enough credit in here. No 1st class SOLDIER has trouble with AVALANCHE in BC, the only ones who striggle were Essai and Sebastian, who were only 2nd class. Every 1st class we're shown in the compilation is on the level of the better fighters in Crisis AVALANCHE, and we don't really have reason to believe there's a bunch of bumbling nameless 1sts hanging out somewhere, everything that speaks on the subject makes it clear the group is tiny and elite.

I don't think we should consider the "1sts" in Midgar to be true 1st class. You have to remember that after all that happened in Crisis Core SOLDIER was left without any of its 1sts and no leader. Leadership fell to Heidegger, whom BC makes clear is an incompetant buffoon, who probably just picked some 2nds at random and told them to change uniforms bevause they were 1sts now.

 

[ForceStealer]

That's could very well be true, but at the same time I think Cloud and friends would be capable of defeating a first class by that point. I mean, they DO kill Sephiroth 7 days later.

 

[SOLDIERis1337]

Keep in mind that they worked as a team to bring down Sephiroth though. Individually I don't think any member of CA sans Cloud and Vincent could equally match a true 1st like Zack.

Look at it this way, until Cloud showed up and curb stomped it CA wasn't really doing anything to Bahamut Tremor, whereas Zack took down two Bahamuts, regular and fury, by himself.

 

[ForceStealer]

Bahamut Tremor is a MUCH more powerful incarnation though, for one thing. The most powerful, correct? AND ...CA (what does that stand for) weren't using any materia while Zack was.

I have no desire to turn this into who-could-beat-who, nor do I downplay Zack's abilities, he did take out most of an army on his own, but it would be interesting. During FF7 I would definitely agree with you...now with them all "at level 99," as Nomura says, I'm not so sure. But still, its not really relevant, yes they worked together to take down Sephiroth, but they worked together to kill the 1sts in Midgar too, so they very well could be "real" 1sts.