So uh, how is Rufus so strong?

[Makoeyes987]

I forgot about Jenova. Shit. That might shit in Shinra's cereal just a little bit, huh?

However, I'm not arguing that the monsters would cause heavy casualties among the armed forces. However, casualties in the big picture isn't really too much of a deterrent, because they all just die either way. If Shinra by some miracle wins the battle in the Crater with a tenth of their army remaining, it's still a victory because they aren't all dead.

Yeah, Jenova is a threat as well, and would definitely kill quite a few people. But even if there are survivors who make it to Sephiroth, don't you think they'd be fatigued, wounded, and not at their best, thanks to the sheer numbers and strength they've lost making it there? The climb, the fighting, etc? These people, who aren't as strong, or as experienced, would have a much more difficult time zerg rushing these things, than a smaller force, who is experienced, and is stronger.

Also, remember that the actions of an army aren't just 'go kill stuff'. There are attack formations, tactics, data from their last incursion in the Crater, and all that other stuff. One advantage an army has over AVALANCHE is that Cloud and co. had very little choice but to brave the depths of the crater with no backup, no intel, no recon, no nothing. They could have been eaten by one of those big ass worm things from Star Wars for all they knew.

True, but if all of those monsters and shit, are alerted to the presence of a huge number of people going into the crater, Sephiroth would send more out in force to thwart them. And Cloud's group is smaller, thus stealth would be on their side.

Alright, I'll give you that. Still, they're not entirely worthless.

No, the Turks aren't, and they were able to defeat one of the strongest summons in FFVII. But Sephiroth isn't a summon, and they wouldn't just be fighting him. Before Crisis shows that while the Turks are smart, and strong, they can be overwhelmed by sheer power.

Alright, so they possibly don't have their robots on their side. Still, they have a giant army.

Well like I said, it wouldn't be impossible, but it'd be a miracle, and even then, they're fucked either way cause Sephiroth would win even when dead thanks to his will.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

I think the fact that Rufus has pulled off as much shit as he has without any enhancements, while nearly all the other characters are scientifically enchanced or professionally trained or whatnot, is a testament to the badass that he really is. I mean he's not as strong as a lot of other characters, but all of those characters are...special. And he isn't.

Or something.

 

[Max Payne]

I doubt it never occurred to rufus that he could make use of all of the biological enhancement technology at their disposal.

There are more ways to make yourself a badass than Jenova cells.

 

[Ravynne Nevyrmore]

Not saying it never occurred to him. Maybe he felt himself to be above that.

 

[Roger]

Jesus, you people talk fast.

Their alternative was to kill Sephiroth, who was holding back Holy which would stop Meteor and avert the crisis. That's what they were doing and Cloud's party knew that was the only way to avert disaster.

Cloud and the part weren't even aware that Holy had been cast yet. AVALANCHE had just spend a week being entirely ineffectual without Cloud's guidance and with Tifa unconcious, they had no reason to expect anything from them.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Who says it was a week? And even then, by the time Cloud recovered they were aware Holy was cast...did you forget them going into the Forgotten Capital with Bugenhagen and seeing/hearing Bugenhagen's explanation of Holy?

 

[Shademp]

Who says it was a week?

When Tifa wakes up Barret tells her she has been sleeping for a week (since the Weapons emerged).
Coincidentally, when Tifa and Cloud had their little accident as children Tifa fell into a coma for seven days.
Yet again, coincidentally, right after Cloud and Co. stopped the Sister Ray, Red XIII says that Bugenhagen predicts Meteor will fall in seven days.

(These other two events are not related but I just wanted to mention them )

 

[Makoeyes987]

When Tifa wakes up Barret tells her she has been sleeping for a week (since the Weapons emerged).
Coincidentally, when Tifa and Cloud had their little accident as children Tifa fell into a coma for seven days.
Yet again, coincidentally, right after Cloud and Co. stopped the Sister Ray, Red XIII says that Bugenhagen predicts Meteor will fall in seven days.

(These other two events are not related but I just wanted to mention them )

Oh! That part, I thought he was talking about the search for the Huge Materia while Cloud was in Mideel. Nevermind. I see what he's talking about now, thanks

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I might have to concede on the point of Shinra being able to take out Sephiroth on their own. However, just much much stronger are AVALANCHE than everyone else on the planet? Wouldn't a group of say, 20 1st Classes, or even 40 2nd Classes be more or less equal to them in fighting capability?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I might have to concede on the point of Shinra being able to take out Sephiroth on their own. However, just much much stronger are AVALANCHE than everyone else on the planet? Wouldn't a group of say, 20 1st Classes, or even 40 2nd Classes be more or less equal to them in fighting capability?

That would make for an awesome mini-game in a remake

I think there comes a point where sheer numbers would eventually override the advantage and strength the heroes would have. So yeah, 20 or 30 1st Class SOLDIERs attacking them all at once would definitely put them at a disadvantage.

But then again that's what Ultima is for..

 

[Tetsujin]

That would make for an awesome mini-game in a remake

I think there comes a point where sheer numbers would eventually override the advantage and strength the heroes would have. So yeah, 20 or 30 1st Class SOLDIERs attacking them all at once would definitely put them at a disadvantage.

But then again that's what Ultima is for..

Don't forget that all SOLDIERs would be equipped with materia too, some maybe with Ultima and shit as well. Or summons.

 

[Roger]

Who says it was a week? And even then, by the time Cloud recovered they were aware Holy was cast...did you forget them going into the Forgotten Capital with Bugenhagen and seeing/hearing Bugenhagen's explanation of Holy?

That was after they already stopped Shinra's plan to blow away the Meteor with Huge Materia.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That was after they already stopped Shinra's plan to blow away the Meteor with Huge Materia.

Well now that I know what you mean,

Cloud and the part weren't even aware that Holy had been cast yet. AVALANCHE had just spend a week being entirely ineffectual without Cloud's guidance and with Tifa unconcious, they had no reason to expect anything from them.

Do keep in mind they spent that week being ineffectual thanks to Shinra holding them prisoner and intending to execute them instead.

Just because Cloud and Tifa were out of the game temporarily didn't mean they were useless. They were useless because they were prisoners and wanted.

 

[Roger]

Well now that I know what you mean,



Do keep in mind they spent that week being ineffectual thanks to Shinra holding them prisoner and intending to execute them instead.

Just because Cloud and Tifa were out of the game temporarily didn't mean they were useless. They were useless because they were prisoners and wanted.

Uh, was this confirmed? I mean, Barret seemed to be under the impression that they were buds when Tifa woke up. He was all like, that Rufus' got some balls then changing his mind when he found out about the plan to execute. The rest of them didn't seem like they were imprisoned at any point. Barret seemed to have only been there because Tifa was ill and Shinra was taking care of her.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Yeah, that much seems to be true. Barret seemed to be shocked when they found out they were going to be executed, as if their stay in Junon up to that point was okey dokey.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah, that much seems to be true. Barret seemed to be shocked when they found out they were going to be executed, as if their stay in Junon up to that point was okey dokey.

Yeah, because it was trick. They probably told them, "stay in Junon with us, we want to keep you safe and ask for your help in a moment."

You know, something like, "please don't leave Junon for the time being, we'd like you to help us in the future."

You see what I'm saying?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Oh, of course, yeah. Shinra's folly is that they decided to execute them (for a really flimsy reason) instead of asking for their help. While Shinra didn't really have much official reason to believe that AVALANCHE could have stopped Shinra all by themselves, it would have been logical for them to forge some sort of alliance with them instead of killing them for PR.

 

[Aki]

I think its simply because he's a boss. You could argue why Palmer was so strong during the fight in Rocket Town to fight you off at around level 30 if you havnt been boosting. When he's shown as a faggy fat pussy.

SImply just game mechanics.

And I think a Soldier 1st could take any of AVERLANCH, bar Cloud and Vincent.

 

[Max Payne]

I think its simply because he's a boss. You could argue why Palmer was so strong during the fight in Rocket Town to fight you off at around level 30 if you havnt been boosting. When he's shown as a faggy fat pussy.

SImply just game mechanics.

And I think a Soldier 1st could take any of AVERLANCH, bar Cloud and Vincent.

You think wrong.

 

[Makoeyes987]

What? Palmer was never strong. He was easy as hell to beat, since all he did was cast level two magic with a mako gun. That's how he fought you. He was wielding a gun that cast spells at you. A simple Reflect spell, or MBarrier made him a cake walk.

And any SOLDIER 1st Class could take AVALANCHE? Rofflecopter. Sure. Okay. Care to cite any type of reasoning there? Barring their strongest SOLDIERs, their 1st Class members had trouble with fucking AVALANCHE in BC and monsters in the Shinra Building. I doubt they'd have a cake walk beating down the heroes themselves. Save for maybe Cait Sit h who's just a plushie.

 

[Max Payne]

This is going to be another case of "HURR THEY NEVER FOUGHT 1ST CLASS SOLDIERS THAT WUZ JUST GAME MECHANICS" ain't it?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

This is going to be another case of "HURR THEY NEVER FOUGHT 1ST CLASS SOLDIERS THAT WUZ JUST GAME MECHANICS" ain't it?

oh god i hope not

What? Palmer was never strong. He was easy as hell to beat, since all he did was cast level two magic with a mako gun. That's how he fought you. He was wielding a gun that cast spells at you. A simple Reflect spell, or MBarrier made him a cake walk.

I think she's referring to how Palmer managed to even take one hit of Cloud's sword or however you chose to enact AVALANCHE-esque vengeance without dropping dead immediately.

The fat bastard did have a lot of HP. It was probably his cushiony layer of fat from all that lard in his tea.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think she's referring to how Palmer managed to even take one hit of Cloud's sword or however you chose to enact AVALANCHE-esque vengeance without dropping dead immediately.

The fat bastard did have a lot of HP. It was probably his cushiony layer of fat from all that lard in his tea.

That about sums it up.

 

[Gale]

One of the points I think FF7 tries to make is that no matter how super-strong a character is there's always the possibility that someone less strong/skilled/likely can beat or kill them.

Sure Cloud had a lot of innate potential, but when he killed Sephiroth as a kid he was still little more than a scrappy MP. Lifting up the entire Masamune with Sephiroth was definitely impressive, but I always got the impression that more than anything else Sephiroth was just shocked that this hick-kid could manage it and thus couldn't react when he got his ass tossed into a reactor.

And of course there's my ever-favorite hundred-something MP's that wore Zack down enough that it only took three to kill him.

So I think it's fair to say that if Avalanche was suddenly surrounded by Shinra's forces even they would eventually succumb - unless they had a means of escape.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Or if they had that nifty Shield Materia that renders you invincible