So what's canon now?

[Makoeyes987]

Sure, those things are in Remake's continuity now, but besides looking similar/identical, they don't have to share the same backgrounds and continuity as Compilation.

So then the question would be, why were they re-used? There's obviously an intention behind it. Nomura said there wasn't "continuity between the Remake of FFVII and the Compilation at this time", but then he proceeds to reuse the Compilation of FFVII's visual design elements in depicting the original plot of FFVII.

So in re-designing the characters and scenario concepts of FFVII, Nomura decided to adhere to the continuity of depiction of several elements that originated from the Compilation of FFVII. Rather than use FFVII's design, he adhered to continuity from the Compilation. So if he continues to do this, what does that mean? There's obviously a disconnect here. Regardless of what he says, his actions are what remain and matter in analysis.

The look alone of something itself serves as a visual, thematic and artistic cue of continuity in the visual background and world building of a series and its characters. That's simply what it's appearance is. In this case, carry over of visual and world building aesthetics that originated from the Compilation.

You say they don't "share the same backgrounds or continuity as the Compilation," but what are you talking about? This is the plot of FFVII, there was never anything else. The emblem of SOLDIER and the Buster Sword are themselves, their continuity and background. The Buster Sword resembles the Buster Sword shown in Crisis Core, period. The SOLDIER emblem from the Compilation of FFVII... Is just that, the Compilation of FFVII's SOLDIER emblem.

So how can they not have continuity to the Compilation, again? That simply doesn't make sense when they look the same.

What other background or continuity is there?

 

[hleV]

Because it looks nice! There's no contradiction. They don't have to be in same continuity, they just look similar. It really is that simple.

I'm 100% sure that by "coherence to Compilation", he meant the events, not visuals.

 

[InterfaceLeader]

So then the question would be, why were they re-used? There's obviously an intention behind it. Nomura said there wasn't "continuity between the Remake of FFVII and the Compilation at this time", but then he proceeds to reuse the Compilation of FFVII's visual design elements in depicting the original plot of FFVII.

Why is there 'obviously' an intention behind it beyond 'it looks cool'? I think you are giving Nomura credit for a way more nuanced understanding of theme and design than he's ever demonstrated before


To answer your original question Liquorice: I personally think we'll see a split into OG and Remake 'canons' for a while, but overtime it will become blurred, with favourite elements of each being taken to create a new Fanon universe. I kind of see this with Advent Children et al, with people writing fic set in OG universe but with cherry-picked stuff from the compilation.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Because it looks nice! There's no contradiction. They don't have to be in same continuity, they just look similar. It really is that simple.

I don't understand how you're saying there's no contradiction. Their presence is a "contradiction" to what Nomura stated.

If they look similar/exact, then that's the same look that originated from the Compilation. That, is really that is simple. It looks nice and it came from the Compilation. It's presence originated from the Compilation.

When Return of the Jedi was remastered by George Lucas to replace Sebastian Shaw with Hayden Christensen as Anakin's Force ghost at the end, Lucas chose to retroactively make the original movie in continuity with his prequels. That was a choice that undid the original depiction of what Anakin Skywalker looked like in Return of the Jedi, to make it adhere to the prequels continuity of events and depiction. This was hated because if a viewer chose to ignore every aspect and plot point that was introduced in the prequels, the presence of that change in the original movie, served as a visual reminder of the continuity and design aesthetic of the prequels.

Regardless of the original Return of the Jedi having absolutely no direct continuity or connection to the prequels, that replacement served as a call back and connection to the prequels that was obviously placed by Lucas for that purpose. When asked, Lucas said a Jedi's "Force Ghost" is the image the Jedi had of themselves when they died. So again, there was a logic behind his decision. It didn't just happen at random.

In the end, it's presence served as a visual connection to what Lucas' created after the trilogy.

The designs referred to here aren't of the same magnitude as replacing an actor's head with another, but it is still, replacing the original outfit of Cloud and SOLDIER 1st Class, with what was made after in the Compilation. When Nomura said he wasn't going to do that. That's just an outright contradiction regardless of how you may feel about it.

Why is there 'obviously' an intention behind it beyond 'it looks cool'? I think you are giving Nomura credit for a way more nuanced understanding of theme and design than he's ever demonstrated before
.

Because that's not how design choices are made. An artist makes a conscious choice in design and creating a visual artwork. Creation isn't random. In discussing their art, an artist explains how they make a choice. And if you are going to claim "it' was cool" was the reasoning for the decision, you have to actually provide proof. Otherwise, what is your basis for that conclusion?

If I said Nomura did it because someone threatened to bust his kneecaps if he refused, wouldn't I have to prove that was the reason? I mean, come on. The fact remains that in the face of what he said, he made the conscious choice to reuse several elements. Why? The real answer is, "we don't know."

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Don't think this is worthy of the existential crisis you're giving it, Mako. We're talking about Nomura here -- the guy who gave one version of Cloud some of Vincent's clothes without any known story developments giving a reason for them to get from a version of Vincent to that version of Cloud.

Nomura is going to do what he wants, and Kitase is going to let him. One of the reasons I'm highly trepidatious about this project.

 

[Roger]

Where is this discussion coming from? Cloud's had the new SOLDIER logo on his own belt this entire time. The person that said they don't currently have continuity with the compilation knew that. Even Cloud in Smash with his purple uniform and classic Buster Sword, which certainly has no contuity with anything, has that new logo. Square does not like the old logo.

 

[Keveh Kins]

^They did use the old logo for the Deepground lads, though. Which is naff, I've always preferred the original SOLDIER logo, stands out more

 

[ForceStealer]

Ever since the 2015 PSX remake trailer Cloud's belt has had the Compilation SOLDIER emblem, I'm not sure I see why you expected different, Mako?

Oops, ninja'd

 

[Kai Schulen]

Anyways, didn't I disprove that the belt Sephiroth is wearing is not the one from Dissidia?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Don't think this is worthy of the existential crisis you're giving it, Mako. We're talking about Nomura here -- the guy who gave one version of Cloud some of Vincent's clothes without any known story developments giving a reason for them to get from a version of Vincent to that version of Cloud.

Nomura is going to do what he wants, and Kitase is going to let him. One of the reasons I'm highly trepidatious about this project.

Well it's not an existential crisis, I was just pointing out the glaring inconsistency of his statement versus his actions. I mean, he's literally saying one thing, while doing the opposite. Visual/artistic continuity is obviously a facet of continuity and he either doesn't know that or just said something on the fly without giving it much thought.

I mean I agree, he's always gonna do what he wants and just say whatever. Hey, I don't think it's gonna turn out badly, I mean. He works best when part of a group. This isn't like he's just in control and free to write however he wants.

Anyways, didn't I disprove that the belt Sephiroth is wearing is not the one from Dissidia?

Yes, I see that. That was just an observation I made earlier in regards to it's similarity. That wasn't my main point though, but they do still look a tad similar. It's more a callback, than an outright lifting from the previous design.

Ever since the 2015 PSX remake trailer Cloud's belt has had the Compilation SOLDIER emblem, I'm not sure I see why you expected different, Mako?

Oops, ninja'd

No, I didn't expect different. I promise

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Visual/artistic continuity is obviously a facet of continuity and he either doesn't know that or just said something on the fly without giving it much thought.

It's that second one.

This isn't like he's just in control and free to write however he wants.

Okay. Keep that optimism!

 

[Makoeyes987]

LOL you don't have any optimism for this?

And yeah Nomura has always said things that were either outright false, or clearly just contradictory to what's apparent to the viewer. Like in reference to KH3, didn't he say that the player would control Aqua's fate in the story? That literally never happened.

So yeah, I'm not surprised.

 

[Kain424]

I think, in regards to the "coherence" thing, things simply changed after he said that. Now there is some level of continuity.

 

[Roger]

I think, in regards to the "coherence" thing, things simply changed after he said that. Now there is some level of continuity.

We have no reason to believe there was ever a point where they weren't retaining the new SOLDIER logo.

 

[Kain424]

Aside from that initial "coherence" line, I definitely agree. And even then, it's a loaded word. But it does make me wonder now if there will be other little references and things throughout the new game that could lead to either the current Compilation or a new one.

 

[XxREUNIONxX]

My personal view of "canon" has more to do with plot elements as apposed to design elements. Sure, SE has included design elements from the compilation. That, however, doesn't necessarily mean that the plots and characters from the compilation will be directly referenced.

For example, in KH2 the FF7 cast appeared in thier AC outfits. Is that supposed to mean that there is a connection canon-wise between kh2 and AC? No. They were simply design elements included as a callback. Referring to another work doesn't always mean that the creators intend it to be viewed as canon material.

It seems that Nomura had left his statement intentionally vague so that, if they chose, they would still be free to include elements from the compilation if it were to line up with thier current vision of the game. Who knows? Perhaps we will get more tie in material from the compilation than initially anticipated. For me, in the time being, I choose not to see these design elements as anything too connected to the compilation. I will not be viewing it as specifically "canon" unless actual plot points are revealed to tie them in more specifically.

 

[Keveh Kins]

Just as an aside, how fucking great is it that this much discourse has been generated out of the design of a logo on a belt on a fictional character?

I fucking love TLS

 

[Kai Schulen]

Just as an aside, how fucking great is it that this much discourse has been generated out of the design of a logo on a belt on a fictional character?

I fucking love TLS

When the remake hasn't even been released yet too.

We're living in a good timeline.

edit: Also, curious what the logo is on his 2nd belt. Is it a feather, or a sword, or a nail bat? compass needle that always somewhere that isn't north? chastity belt to keep away fangirls? what is it?!

edit the 2nd: also, personally, I think it's too early to worry about the Remake's plot coherency and consistency to the Compilation of canon when the remake hasn't come out yet, and all we've had is a handful of trailers that have been all about graphics and gameplay, and hush hush about the plot.

 

[Ite]

It’s hush because the spoopy ghosts might hear

 

[X-SOLDIER]

While Star Wars has always been good about defining "levels" to its canon (Films, Legends, Infinities, Disney etc.) they operate with a heirarchy of content in mind. I think that if we want to look at FFVII's "canon" in discussion, it's best to view it like this:

The OG exists on its own as its own thing
– It just is what it is.
The Compilation titles exist as their own thing
– They reference anything released before them mostly as a source of truth with room for interpretation.
The Remake exists as its own thing
– It's likely to have permutations and adjustments from anything previous in how it builds its story.

I've always felt like whenever FFVII makes a new addition, that gets to act as the new definitive thing that can reinterpret whatever for the sake of its story. That doesn't mean that something established is disregarded, but more that if something was defined, but they can come up with a more interesting interpretation for the lens of that story, that's going to be what gets done. I think that this is also why it's pretty easy for things like Maiden of the Planet & Last Order to be interesting, but not feel like they have to be committed to.

While that's not great for canon or dissecting interactions and relationships between things, it gives them a lot more freedom to adjust things as they will. Depending on who's making what that can be a blessing or a curse. I'm not really too bothered by it since I unabashedly enjoy the Compilation, but it's also why I'm looking to seeing the Remake get to take or leave whatever it feels like without being tied down to anything.




X

 

[Ite]

I feel like their overall approach has always been “you know it’s all fake right?” YES. BUT WE’RE NERDS.

As self contained things, they always seem to follow a kind of internal consistency. With sequels and spinoffs though, they just don’t care about consistency. That’s why it’s a mercy mainline FFs are their own thing.

 

[jazzflower92]

Now all we need to see is Don Corneo in his revolting glory.

 

[Tashasaurous]

Now all we need to see is Don Corneo in his revolting glory.

I have no love for Don Corneo or his gross reputation. I'm more interested in Tifa cutting him off when he attempts to tell his "sad" story in Wutai and then him getting freaked out by Reno's appearance. But all in all, that guy is just gross.

And how he

Spoiler: (A Turks Side Story Spoiler)

survived that fall and ended up back in Midgar in a wheelchair in "A Turks Side Story" book is a big mystery.

I know it's only Compilation Canon in that part.

 

[jazzflower92]

I have no love for Don Corneo or his gross reputation. I'm more interested in Tifa cutting him off when he attempts to tell his "sad" story in Wutai and then him getting freaked out by Reno's appearance. But all in all, that guy is just gross.

And how he

Spoiler: (A Turks Side Story Spoiler)

survived that fall and ended up back in Midgar in a wheelchair in "A Turks Side Story" book is a big mystery.

I know it's only Compilation Canon in that part.

Maybe the universe wants him to have a fate worse than death.

 

[Tashasaurous]

Maybe the universe wants him to have a fate worse than death.

Maybe.