So where do we stand on the big remake mystery now?

[KindOfBlue]

As far as Cloud’s development supposedly being ruined if he were to encounter Zack before the Lifestream, it all boils down to execution. Though an illusion, technically we already saw Cloud responding to seeing Zack in the OG and it made him trip the hell out, so imagine how much more confusing it would be if Zack actually was alive. If we do end up going as far as the Northern Crater, maybe they can reimagine Sephiroth taunting Cloud by now throwing a living Zack at him somehow.

Big up Jessie yo

J***** will remember that.

 

[Golden Ear]

I was discussing this topic with someone on Resetera and I'll post what I said here as well since I think it sums up my point well.

The problem with the theory of a single terrier timeline that the party have found themselves in after defeating the whispers ties in with the principle of chekhov's gun in story telling.

At the end of Remake Part 1 we see all the Shinra characters with Rufus taking the throne of his father followed be Hojo laughing maniacally after Jenova has been taken. These scenes are a direct result of the Beagle timeline that we just played. If Cloud and party found themselves in a Terrier Timeline, what happened to all the events that led up to what we see of these scenes? Why even show these scenes if they just get replaced by the Terrier Timeline?

Remake Part 1 has all ready set up character arcs that should continue to play out according to chekov's gun. It wouldn't make any sense to have Rufus, Scarlet, Hojo, Tseng, Rude, Reno, Heidigger, or even Marlene, Leslie, Roche and Yuffie to have started story and character arc events to just have them replaced by a Terrier Timeline.

If Cloud and party got sent to a Terrier Timeline where Zack survived while carrying a version of Cloud and that alternate Cloud dies, then none of the events that led to Cloud and Party meeting any of the characters I described above would have happened in this new timeline.

Let's take Roche for example, do you think they set up all the character interaction and rivalry between him and Cloud just for it to be erased? It's very clear that the writers are setting something up to continue in Part 2 "See you on the road my friend!" Even in the Yuffie DLC they emphasize that Roche is looking for Cloud and is obsessed with him. If Cloud would have never met Roche in this new Timeline , what would be the point of setting these interactions up? Maybe you could say "We'll they'll just create story where they get re-introduced", but what would be the point of that? If that's the case why wouldn't they have just waited for Part 2 to introduce him in the first place?

 

[Eerie]

I think you may think too much about this, really. No matter what, the multiple timelines can only have plot holes, but it doesn't mean they're not going that way. They will simply ignore those plot holes XD And this is coming from someone who believes that Zack dying is an important part of FFVII and Cloud's story, how and why he acted the way he did/does in the OG/Remake. This is something that simply cannot be undone, Cloud has had to live through it for him to become who he is right now in Remake.

Now I agree on one thing: Remake has set up everyone's arc quite nicely, and to me the trailer showed that, as the devs promised, we are going to follow FFVII story. So I do not think Zack can interact with the main party - thinking about it, if he could, would Aerith really reach out to Cloud in her GS date? I don't think so.

 

[Golden Ear]

Not sure if you're disagreeing with me, I'm not arguing against multiple timelines. I'm presenting a case where the result of Remake Part 1 being now a single terrier timeline seems very unlikely.

 

[Roundhouse]

Zack being a ghost solves all these issues, I must admit.

 

[Eerie]

Not sure if you're disagreeing with me, I'm not arguing against multiple timelines. I'm presenting a case where the result of Remake Part 1 being now a single terrier timeline seems very unlikely.

Sorry! It was just your train of thought that was very similar of mine when we first started theorising here, but I was told it just didn't matter if they went the multiverse - they already did something similar, so it could happen again!

 

[Roger]

I was discussing this topic with someone on Resetera and I'll post what I said here as well since I think it sums up my point well.

The problem with the theory of a single terrier timeline that the party have found themselves in after defeating the whispers ties in with the principle of chekhov's gun in story telling.

At the end of Remake Part 1 we see all the Shinra characters with Rufus taking the throne of his father followed be Hojo laughing maniacally after Jenova has been taken. These scenes are a direct result of the Beagle timeline that we just played. If Cloud and party found themselves in a Terrier Timeline, what happened to all the events that led up to what we see of these scenes? Why even show these scenes if they just get replaced by the Terrier Timeline?

Remake Part 1 has all ready set up character arcs that should continue to play out according to chekov's gun. It wouldn't make any sense to have Rufus, Scarlet, Hojo, Tseng, Rude, Reno, Heidigger, or even Marlene, Leslie, Roche and Yuffie to have started story and character arc events to just have them replaced by a Terrier Timeline.

If Cloud and party got sent to a Terrier Timeline where Zack survived while carrying a version of Cloud and that alternate Cloud dies, then none of the events that led to Cloud and Party meeting any of the characters I described above would have happened in this new timeline.

Let's take Roche for example, do you think they set up all the character interaction and rivalry between him and Cloud just for it to be erased? It's very clear that the writers are setting something up to continue in Part 2 "See you on the road my friend!" Even in the Yuffie DLC they emphasize that Roche is looking for Cloud and is obsessed with him. If Cloud would have never met Roche in this new Timeline , what would be the point of setting these interactions up? Maybe you could say "We'll they'll just create story where they get re-introduced", but what would be the point of that? If that's the case why wouldn't they have just waited for Part 2 to introduce him in the first place?

What about Biggs? The events where he died didn't happen. The Zack timeline where nothing you described happened wouldn't see him waking up bandaged either.

 

[waw]

I voted that Zack (and the Cloud he's carrying) are in the main timeline. This is a bit wild, but this my theory:

I don't believe Remake Cloud is "real." I think he's a thoughtform created by Sephiroth to do his bidding a la earlier FF7 drafts and stories. I think Zack and Cloud really survived everything in this Remake timeline due to the Whispers. They always showed up to Midgar, they always lived, but they never made it to the Church in time and we'll see that story. Sephiroth created a Fake Cloud to take on his role and empower him even more.

In the end, we'll see Fake Cloud's memories/being merge with Real & Sick Cloud, restoring the Cloud we know and love. But this will give us a gameplay period where Zack will have to fill in until then. It's a way of giving a whole new twist to the game that means they aren't spoiling the Cloud-Zack twist with CCR. Our Fake Cloud player can be a villain/boss of Rebirth and set up Part III to be really dark and frightening.

The gameplay and story will largely follow all the events of the OG, but we'll lose Fake Cloud at the Temple probably, gain Zack and Sick Cloud in some form, see Fake Cloud try to kill Aerith in the Forgotten Capital (whether successful or not) and face off against Fake Cloud at the end. I imagine we're leaving Sick Cloud in a place like Mideel or Gongaga and will pick up on that story in Part III.

No, I don't have evidence. I think there are context clues that can make us all go "Woah, okay, I get it." But nothing until the big reveal.

 

[Eerie]

@waw this feels so very wrong though, it would mean Aerith never meets up with Cloud at all? That the real Cloud doesn't have a bond with her? I don't believe this at all. And it's only the beginning, I can point out that Cloud remembers the promise scene with Tifa by himself; this can only happen if he's the real Cloud.

Because Sephiroth is unable to understand caring about /loving others, he would not be able to manipulate or create a Cloud who acted like he did in Remake. Definitely not. Cloud in Remake is way softer already than what he was in the OG.

 

[Ryeleigh]

You know, it kind of feels like people are making mountains out of molehills in regards to Zack XD Like, people come up with so many reasons why Zack being alive wouldn't work and yeah, a lot of it is valid. But like, it's the job of a good author to make it work regardless.

And yeah, we all have our theories and what we'd like to happen so we argue from that direction. Personally, I think Zack's alive because that's what the ending seemingly told me. Granted, about 10 minutes of screentime and 30 seconds in a trailer isn't a lot of information to go on. For selfish reasons, I hope Zack's alive because I really want to see him interact with the rest of the gang. *crosses fingers*

I also don't think there are multiple timelines or universes, or that we need to worry about the devs undoing anything that happened in Part 1. I think there's just the one timeline and the butterfly effect of retroactively saving Zack's life. Which retroactively changed the Stamp mascot but... it could be just a sign that "things are different now". Or, another example off the top of my head, since Stamp was created for propaganda purposes maybe something in Shinra's propaganda retroactively changed as well when the Whispers were destroyed? *shrugs*

But anyhow, for an example, Harry Potter 3 had time travel. The story also never addressed that Hermione created multimillion time loops in the course of a year. Because, you know, most authors ignore things that aren't conducive to telling the story they want.

 

[Golden Ear]

What about Biggs? The events where he died didn't happen. The Zack timeline where nothing you described happened wouldn't see him waking up bandaged either.

I think he didn't actually die! I admit it would be on of those things that needs explanation, did someone save him? Cait Sith I'm looking at you...
I think Jessie did in fact die, but Biggs might have just fell unconscious.

 

[Golden Ear]

You know, it kind of feels like people are making mountains out of molehills in regards to Zack XD Like, people come up with so many reasons why Zack being alive wouldn't work and yeah, a lot of it is valid. But like, it's the job of a good author to make it work regardless.

And yeah, we all have our theories and what we'd like to happen so we argue from that direction. Personally, I think Zack's alive because that's what the ending seemingly told me. Granted, about 10 minutes of screentime and 30 seconds in a trailer isn't a lot of information to go on. For selfish reasons, I hope Zack's alive because I really want to see him interact with the rest of the gang. *crosses fingers*

I also don't think there are multiple timelines or universes, or that we need to worry about the devs undoing anything that happened in Part 1. I think there's just the one timeline and the butterfly effect of retroactively saving Zack's life. Which retroactively changed the Stamp mascot but... it could be just a sign that "things are different now". Or, another example off the top of my head, since Stamp was created for propaganda purposes maybe something in Shinra's propaganda retroactively changed as well when the Whispers were destroyed? *shrugs*

But anyhow, for an example, Harry Potter 3 had time travel. The story also never addressed that Hermione created multimillion time loops in the course of a year. Because, you know, most authors ignore things that aren't conducive to telling the story they want.

It's possible that they just sloppily mushed Zack being alive into our journey and that's basically it, I agree it would make things easier and less convoluted.

The ending of intermission really hints that Zack walked into some kind of situation where something (presumably bad) as happened in relation to Aerith. But Aerith's fine because she's just with us going to Kalm soooo......what would that mean?

We talk about red herrings and mis-directs, but when you careful construct a scene from a cinematic story telling perspective with musical hints and then just fade to black on the name "Aerith....?" it most logically means they're setting up something with that going forward.

 

[Roundhouse]

Hence the big 'Aerith is dead in Zack's timeline' theory, hmm....

I kinda hope that's not the case, although if it's true, I wonder if this then means main timeline Aerith has a better chance of living.

 

[Roger]

@waw this feels so very wrong though, it would mean Aerith never meets up with Cloud at all? That the real Cloud doesn't have a bond with her? I don't believe this at all. And it's only the beginning, I can point out that Cloud remembers the promise scene with Tifa by himself; this can only happen if he's the real Cloud.

That's not true, Cloud can and did use Jenova's Mimic ability on Tifa to help construct this SOLDIER identity and she remembers the promise scene. Cloud also can and did use Jenova's Mimic ability on Zack to help construct this SOLDIER identity. If there's also another Cloud running around that he could've theoretically used his Mimic ability on, there's not really anything he can say or remember even in the Lifestream that proves he is real. Hojo or Sephiroth are just gonna have to be kind enough to vouch for him. Granted EoC Sephiroth might actually be that kind.

I think he didn't actually die! I admit it would be on of those things that needs explanation, did someone save him? Cait Sith I'm looking at you...
I think Jessie did in fact die, but Biggs might have just fell unconscious.

Having Zack survive due to the elimination of the Whispers and then show Biggs survive and then have it be in spite of the Whispers is gonna be quite the thing to sell to an audience you've already purposely led to think the opposite. The Whispers hounded Wedge for days afterwards. Mind you, Tifa and Barret leave Wedge alive and do not interact with him again all the way out of Midgar. The Whispers attacked Wedge and push off a ledge all the same, just to have him be dead regardless how that effects the main parties decision making. Biggs survived the Whispers being the same way about him, while unconcious. I'll have to see it to believe it.

 

[waw]

I've since read through the thread a bit more and have some thoughts to chime in on.

Not sure what would cause a change in opinion thus far. However I will say I think he's definitely in an alternate timeline given the fact he has his own version of Cloud, his own Buster Sword, a different version of Stamp, and he's shown doing things in the past that are completely paradoxical and contrary to the past that matches with Cloud in FFVII. Namely...Living and keeping the Buster Sword

So I wanted to address Mako's points here as they're probably the big smoking guns for any theory, right?

The other Cloud is incredibly important people keep saying things like how can there be more than one Cloud? (Or they forget Cloud and just talk about Zack's alive!) The Ultimania makes a point to tell us that there are 4 Sephiroths (but also there aren't. It's complicated, isn't it?) And I think the same can be said for Cloud. We're seeing two Clouds that can exist and can't in the same unvierse due to weird FF7 shtuffs.

The Buster Sword? In the idea of a Fake Cloud, yeah, Sephiroth could manifest a Fake Buster Sword. No problem.

I'm not sure why there are two stamps. I think this means we either don't have alternate timelines or the Beagle Stamp is used specifcally and always by Avalanche folx. Yes, that means deeply embedded in Shinra then. But we know that can be true. At best, two Stamps probably mean alternate universes? But I'm not sold on it.

And of course, Zack living. I think Zack could totally be alive and around during what we saw in Remake, just in a different place/slum/plate, etc.

I'm all in on alternate timeline / universe and believe this will impact the party's journey in a big way. Previously wrote about it at length here. Reposting my theory below for good measure.

I've seen your theory, and what it should add to your illustration is the OG timeline. This would then occur simultaneous with it in some way, like post DoC being the same time or something as the Singularity. All of that coudl work for me. My only issue with this theory is that as this is the final installment of the FF7 Compilation from what the devs have said, it makes me feel that we're getting resolutions to an alternate new universe rather than our original characters and that just feels off to me.

@waw this feels so very wrong though, it would mean Aerith never meets up with Cloud at all? That the real Cloud doesn't have a bond with her? I don't believe this at all. And it's only the beginning, I can point out that Cloud remembers the promise scene with Tifa by himself; this can only happen if he's the real Cloud.

Yeah, the Aerith-Real Cloud connection could be weird in all this. But I think Fake Cloud will connect with Real Cloud and reconcile those notions. I also think this is going to involve Future Memory Cloud/AC/DoC dude who had all those memories of/with Aerith. I think by the time it is all done, our original Cloud will be back with his/our memories. I honestly think your worry here would be fully addressed and dealt with. I also think the Compilation has leaned far heavier on the notions that Cloud has a romance with Tifa, and Aerith has one with Zack. Not to start up the LTD thing here, but my above theory points strictly to a Cloud-Tifa romance and that Zack and Aerith have theirs. I do think that's currently supported with everything since the OG.

I'm not sure that a Sephiroth-created Cloud couldn't remember the the promise scene with Tifa. If Sephiroth has anchored himself to Cloud the way we understand it, I don't see why he couldn't create those memories to to manipulate Cloud.

Because Sephiroth is unable to understand caring about /loving others, he would not be able to manipulate or create a Cloud who acted like he did in Remake. Definitely not. Cloud in Remake is way softer already than what he was in the OG.

No. This is already debunked in Remake. Sephiroth uses Cloud's mom and the threat of killing Aerith and the others as ways of manipulating and scaring Cloud. If Seph can understand that Cloud loves those characters, then he can understand loving and caring. CC Sephiroth cares about Angeal and Genesis. He's not exactly a sociopath. Maybe after he connects with Jenova he becomes one, but that brings to the Watashi and Ore stuff. The Sephiroth mucking things up in Remake is an Ore Seph, so somehow connected to Pre-Nibelheim Seph and that guy seems to understand connections and emotions.

Honestly, I don't know where this notion comes from.

You know, it kind of feels like people are making mountains out of molehills in regards to Zack XD Like, people come up with so many reasons why Zack being alive wouldn't work and yeah, a lot of it is valid. But like, it's the job of a good author to make it work regardless.

This. I've seen folx raise every possible theory about Zack in this, and every theory has a big glaring "BUT THAT DOESN'T WORK" angle to it in which we all think it was a bad story. I think most FF7 fans felt at least a little apprehension about an early appearing Sephiroth and the presence of the Whispers, even a surviving Zack. But it seems from what I can tell that FF7 Remake is widely loved far more than it isn't, and I've seen countless responses of "I'm so glad I played it. They actually surprised me with how well this worked" sort of sentiments. Regardless of the theory and actuality of why Zack is around, in whatever capacity, I completely trust the authors to make this work.

The final result could be that Zack is Aerith's physical manifestation after death used to travel back in time and undo her own death so Zack/Aerith Thoughtform could make sweet monster babies with Cloud and Tifa in a happy triangle and I'd honestly bet money that whatever these Devs delivered would make that totally crackpot story work really damn well.

These devs could deliver a redemption story for Sephiroth. I absolutely trust them to deliver whatever it is that they deliver. My response to any theory isn't "But that would make a bad story." I 100% think that's up to the creators to deliver and tell in a way that resonates with fans. And I 100% think they will.

 

[Golden Ear]

Having Zack survive due to the elimination of the Whispers and then show Biggs survive and then have it be in spite of the Whispers is gonna be quite the thing to sell to an audience you've already purposely led to think the opposite. The Whispers hounded Wedge for days afterwards. Mind you, Tifa and Barret leave Wedge alive and do not interact with him again all the way out of Midgar. The Whispers attacked Wedge and push off a ledge all the same, just to have him be dead regardless how that effects the main parties decision making. Biggs survived the Whispers being the same way about him, while unconcious. I'll have to see it to believe it.

I actually completely agree with you, its weird AF! All of the stuff involving the Whispers trying to kill off avalanche needs more explanation.

Also:

Why specifically is Biggs alive?

Why not Jessie?

Does Jessie glove and bandana mean she is alive, or where they just grabbed in the act of saving Biggs for some reason?

Even if killing the whispers made it so Biggs survived, why did he wake up in a bed in the sector 5 slums?

Zack didn't wake up somewhere completely different when he survived where he normally died. Why didn't Biggs wake up in the sector 7 rubble? Who brought him there?

Why did it take so long for the Whispers to try to kill Wedge again if they wanted him dead? Were they only concerned if he was actively doing something that would alter fate in a big way such as being in the Shinra building for some reason?

Did they leave Biggs alive because they didn't recognize him doing anything that would alter fate in a big way and that's why we see him alive at the end? Were they only concerned with trying to make sure he was dead when he could potentially interfere with fate during the Pillar chapter?

 

[Eerie]

That's not true, Cloud can and did use Jenova's Mimic ability on Tifa to help construct this SOLDIER identity and she remembers the promise scene. Cloud also can and did use Jenova's Mimic ability on Zack to help construct this SOLDIER identity. If there's also another Cloud running around that he could've theoretically used his Mimic ability on, there's not really anything he can say or remember even in the Lifestream that proves he is real. Hojo or Sephiroth are just gonna have to be kind enough to vouch for him. Granted EoC Sephiroth might actually be that kind.

Come on now, the promise scene is the only memory that hasn't been altered by Jenova. And I think it will be very important, even if it is the Mount Nibel scene that proves that Cloud is himself. Tifa may remember the promise scene, but it wasn't prompted by Jenova in this case - Cloud remembered it alone in Remake, unlike the OG where it was prompted by Tifa.

But I think Fake Cloud will connect with Real Cloud and reconcile those notions.

And now I remember it, the devs did say that true Cloud surfaced during Tifa's resolution, as he wanted to comfort her. So case closed lol.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415587635469307907

 

[Roger]

Come on now, the promise scene is the only memory that hasn't been altered by Jenova. And I think it will be very important, even if it is the Mount Nibel scene that proves that Cloud is himself. Tifa may remember the promise scene, but it wasn't prompted by Jenova in this case - Cloud remembered it alone in Remake, unlike the OG where it was prompted by Tifa.

None of it was prompted by Jenova, Cloud isn't running around thinking he is a SOLDIER First Class because Jenova really wanted to impress Tifa, that's all Cloud. To do that he used Jenova's abilities to take what he need from Tifa's memories to become a Cloud she would remember, their last meeting at the watertower isn't inexplicably safe from this.

 

[Ryeleigh]

It's possible that they just sloppily mushed Zack being alive into our journey and that's basically it, I agree it would make things easier and less convoluted.

The ending of intermission really hints that Zack walked into some kind of situation where something (presumably bad) as happened in relation to Aerith. But Aerith's fine because she's just with us going to Kalm soooo......what would that mean?

We talk about red herrings and mis-directs, but when you careful construct a scene from a cinematic story telling perspective with musical hints and then just fade to black on the name "Aerith....?" it most logically means they're setting up something with that going forward.

Yeah, that's true. But, just to be fair, that could be the red herring. I mean, it is kind of a leap that just because Aerith's not there *at that moment* and the church is full of... refugees? that something happened specifically to her.

 

[Golden Ear]

Yeah, that's true. But, just to be fair, that could be the red herring. I mean, it is kind of a leap that just because Aerith's not there *at that moment* and the church is full of... refugees? that something happened specifically to her.

For sure, it's possible. In my opinion, I think they are hinting at something especially with things like the music and the way it detunes as Zack enters the scene, but none of us know for sure so we're just in limbo. Hopefully there will be some kind of additional scenes for the CC remaster ?

 

[Eerie]

None of it was prompted by Jenova, Cloud isn't running around thinking he is a SOLDIER First Class because Jenova really wanted to impress Tifa, that's all Cloud. To do that he used Jenova's abilities to take what he need from Tifa's memories to become a Cloud she would remember, their last meeting at the watertower isn't inexplicably safe from this.

We know the memory isn't altered nor prompted by Jenova (it's prompted by a fan...) because it's the only one that doesn't start with a greenish tint on screen, unlike every other memory we see.

To be fair, we also don't see it for his dream about his mum (because the chapter starts while he's dreaming), but we do see that Jenova altered this memory with his outfit.

 

[Ryeleigh]

For sure, it's possible. In my opinion, I think they are hinting at something especially with things like the music and the way it detunes as Zack enters the scene, but none of us know for sure so we're just in limbo. Hopefully there will be some kind of additional scenes for the CC remaster ?

Ha ha, that's definitely true. At the end of the day, there just really isn't all that much to go on in the scenes Zack's been in (+ the thirty seconds in the Rebirth trailer). And yeah, I'm also hoping for additional scenes in CCR! Just more scenes between Zack and Cloud, and Zack and Aerith would make me happy. XD

 

[ForceStealer]

I actually completely agree with you, its weird AF! All of the stuff involving the Whispers trying to kill off avalanche needs more explanation.

Also:

Why specifically is Biggs alive?

Why not Jessie?

Does Jessie glove and bandana mean she is alive, or where they just grabbed in the act of saving Biggs for some reason?

Even if killing the whispers made it so Biggs survived, why did he wake up in a bed in the sector 5 slums?

Zack didn't wake up somewhere completely different when he survived where he normally died. Why didn't Biggs wake up in the sector 7 rubble? Who brought him there?

Why did it take so long for the Whispers to try to kill Wedge again if they wanted him dead? Were they only concerned if he was actively doing something that would alter fate in a big way such as being in the Shinra building for some reason?

Did they leave Biggs alive because they didn't recognize him doing anything that would alter fate in a big way and that's why we see him alive at the end? Were they only concerned with trying to make sure he was dead when he could potentially interfere with fate during the Pillar chapter?

It's almost like the whole thing was a terrible idea

 

[Golden Ear]

I'm withholding judgment until it plays out. With 4 years between these games all we can do is wade through insane theory after insane theory(including my own). In fact I think us being exposed to so much discourse and argumentation over what's really going on makes it feel way worse than what actually might be happening. All the noise from the internet creates more additional perceived convolution than what would be otherwise.

So what I'm trying to say is, Yes it was a terrible idea lol!

 

[Fryguy07]

It's almost like the whole thing was a terrible idea

I thînk it was a brilliant idea, officially opening my favorite fandom and video game. The realities of the multi verse, all for our enjoyment. I'm still ecstatic.