So where do we stand on the big remake mystery now?

[Roger]

However, if one assumes for a moment that Zack is in another timeline from the party's, then none of the above issues exist. Why is Stamp's breed different? It signifies that an alternate timeline exists with a slightly different history. What happened to the versions of Barret, Tifa, Aerith, and Red XIII already living in that alternate timeline? They're going about their lives. What happened to the mako-poisoned Cloud travelling with Zack? Well... he's with Zack!

Sure these problems still exist! WHY is there a second Cloud? A second Midgar? Why did Zack's survival create second planet, a second sun, a second Lifestream, a second everything, why does this exist? Where does the energy to make a second Lifestream equal to our own come from? If there was always a multiverse with infinite possibilities, why the heck were the whispers so bent out of shape? Why were the whispers interfering with Zack's battle if his survival would just be dealt with by creating another universe from nothing where such things can take place without issues? Why can't that work for everything the crew did in Midgar?

By assuming there's an alternate timeline, or a multiverse as I call it, the only question remaining is "how will Zack's survival affect the party?" Though it should be noted that none of the other theories answer that either. And, considering Remake ended with the party fighting the embodiment of fate, I don't think crossing between timelines / universes is out of the realm of possibility for this series moving forward.

So yeah, that's what I always get caught up on. And just to be clear, even though I think Zack and the mako-poisoned Cloud are in another universe, I'm not putting them there to "hide them away" from the main story. The exact opposite actually. I think Zack and the multiverse will play a major role in the Remake Project moving forward. It will have planet-shattering ramifications.

If crossing between timelines is a problem in at the end of Part 1, can you please explain why it would not be a problem afterwards? Whenever Zack starts interacting with events of the main story, presumably he is still gonna have another Buster Sword, another Cloud with him, and probably another Aerith.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

The idea that the main party of five didn't die and still made it out of Midgar and then just poofed when the singularity closed does make more sense narratively even if it seems silly logically. That way we don't have Barret coming home and Marlene being like "but you died!" That said, it does take the popular "Aerith's church is full of mourners because she died" theory off the table.

 

[cold_spirit]

This is when he'd go to the church to speak with Aerith, only to find her missing. He'd learn that Avalanche had fled Midgar, maybe from Elmyra, and head out to follow them.

To me, the tone of the church scene in Intermission's ending implies a whole lot more than just "Aerith is with Cloud and the party", but I won't argue this point further. To each their own.

Meanwhile, this alternate version of Avalanche would be overwritten with the version of them we actually played as after they leave the singularity

The idea that the main party of five didn't die and still made it out of Midgar and then just poofed when the singularity closed does make more sense narratively even if it seems silly logically.

As TurquoiseHammer said, the idea that another party out there was overwritten is silly. However, I disagree that it makes more sense narratively. I think the existence of a multiverse, where the party's planet and Zack's planet can exist independently, will be used to do a whole lot more moving forward in the Remake Project.

Guess the whispers weren't around to influence Shinra's PR anymore.

Is this to say that the defeat of the Whispers undid other events throughout history? If so, why some events and not others? For example, why didn't it undo Barret's survival? This is partially a rhetorical question to represent my doubt, I know we don't have the answers.

Frankly, I expect everything besides "Zack is alive now!" to be brushed aside with little explanation.

I think the one and only point here is "Zack's alive now!" and don't think too hard about the implications beyond that lol.

Personally, I feel like you're cutting the storytellers a little short here. They are thorough enough to publish an Ultimania that asks these questions to begin. With Remake they left no stone unturned. For example, they even go so far as to list every appearance of Sephiroth and the Whispers with explanations. As such, I think that future games / Ultimanias will dive deep into these new mechanisms added to the world of FFVII.

But what you're saying is that there was always a terrier timeline, and all we did was somehow nudge that one into having Zack live.

Yep!

Sure these problems still exist! WHY is there a second Cloud? A second Midgar? Why did Zack's survival create second planet, a second sun, a second Lifestream, a second everything, why does this exist? Where does the energy to make a second Lifestream equal to our own come from?

Hold up here. As I've stated repeatedly, I think the Beagle and Terrier universes have always existed, along with other universes out there. Zack's survival did not create a "second planet, a second sun, a second Lifestream, a second everything." These other universes exist now and they don't just provide a setting for Zack's survival, they may also provide a source for Aerith's other memories.

Why did the storytellers add a multiverse to FFVII? Because that's what they wanted to do. Yes, I know it's not in the original game, but neither is time travel, which is what I think you're implying is happening.

As I always say, "Spider-Man didn't start with the Spider-Verse". These elements are added over time as the creators deem fit.

If there was always a multiverse with infinite possibilities, why the heck were the whispers so bent out of shape? Why were the whispers interfering with Zack's battle if his survival would just be dealt with by creating another universe from nothing where such things can take place without issues? Why can't that work for everything the crew did in Midgar?

If we assume there's a multiverse, which I sure do, then it's clear from Zack's scenes that the Whispers operate across universes. Their goal is presumably always the same: to ensure the events of the original game more or less happen everywhere. Why? We don't know. That's one of the questions the Ultimania presents to readers: "What is the goal of the Whispers?" I wish I knew too.

If crossing between timelines is a problem in at the end of Part 1, can you please explain why it would not be a problem afterwards? Whenever Zack starts interacting with events, presumably he is still gonna have another Buster Sword, another Cloud with him, and probably another Aerith.

The ending of Remake shows Zack and a mako-poisoned Cloud walking past our Cloud and Aerith. Additionally, as the Ultimania states, this can't be happening in the same time and place. If the storytellers wanted to show that Zack crossed over to the party's universe, or that the party crossed over to Zack's, then why show a scene where they don't see each other? If they wanted to show the past changed, why show another version of Stamp?

I don't "have a problem" over when Zack crosses over. I'm just going by what the game shows us. Remake shows us two Stamps, then that Zack and the party don't see each other during the ending even though they're on the same cliffside. Taking these two things together, I'm led to believe that there is a multiverse.

If that Terrier Stamp didn't exist, I would say that the defeat of the Whispers changed the past. However, it's there in plain sight and I think it's a big clue as to the greater mechanisms at play here.

Bedtime!

 

[Odysseus]

Is this to say that the defeat of the Whispers undid other events throughout history? If so, why some events and not others? For example, why didn't it undo Barret's survival? This is partially a rhetorical question to represent my doubt, I know we don't have the answers.

Yeah I can't really say.

Personally, I feel like you're cutting the storytellers a little short here. They are thorough enough to publish an Ultimania that asks these questions to begin. With Remake they left no stone unturned. For example, they even go so far as to list every appearance of Sephiroth and the Whispers with explanations. As such, I think that future games / Ultimanias will dive deep into these new mechanisms added to the world of FFVII.

In my view, reviving Zack was the whole point of the first part of the project. One of those early decisions they made when starting out. So they did what they had to to get there. I'm sure there will be explanations on the hows and whys, I just wrote a big long one myself lol. I just don't think it'll be as important as you do.

If we assume there's a multiverse, which I sure do, then It's clear from Zack's scenes that the Whispers operate across universes. Their goal is presumably always the same: to ensure the events of the original game more or less happen everywhere. Why? We don't know. That's one of the questions the Ultimania presents to readers: "What is the goal of the Whispers?" I wish I knew too.

But your argument relies on a difference to distinguish the universes. While a dog mascot may not seem important, the butterfly effect exists for a reason. Why would that slip through the cracks if every universe is supposed to be the same up to a point? The whispers are also shown to be spread thin on a number of occassions, (that's how wedge managed to survive for a while) they aren't all powerful, so I dunno about them managing infinite realities.

The ending of Remake shows Zack and a mako-poisoned Cloud walking past our Cloud and Aerith. Additionally, as the Ultimania states, this can't be happening in the same time and place. If the storytellers wanted to show that Zack crossed over the party's universe, or that the party's crossed over to Zack's, then why show a scene where they don't see each other?

I don't get why everyone is ignoring that Zack's thing was over a month prior to the Remake's ending scene. It was framed that way because both things happened in the same location. Even the page I linked said they weren't happening at the same time. I know you have your whole thing about "temporally displaced timelines" but that's very speculative.

 

[Roger]

but neither is time travel, which is what I think you're implying is happening.

...I wasn't. I dunno why you thought that. I don't particularly understand why you see it as being a binary choice between Zack timetravelling forwards to the time of the Singularity battle or different timelines. Zack surviving and not travelling in time, therefore not seeing Cloud and Aerith because they are on that cliff months later then him is also an option.

If we assume there's a multiverse, which I sure do, then It's clear from Zack's scenes that the Whispers operate across universes. Their goal is presumably always the same: to ensure the events of the original game more or less happen everywhere. Why? We don't know. That's one of the questions the Ultimania presents to readers: "What is the goal of the Whispers?" I wish I knew too.

That makes the problem of the Whispers definitely something beyond the parties abilities to address in any way.

The Whispers clearly needed the events of the original game to happen to Cloud and the party. They will. We'll still do the Reunion, the casting of the Black Materia, the casting of White Materia, the battle with the WEAPONs, the defeat of the Sephiroth and the Lifestream pitching in to destroy Meteor. If they also need to happen in every universe, no matter how different things are, even in the ones where Cloud succesfully leaves AVALANCHE behind, or kills Reno, or prevents the platedrop or Aerith or Barret or other members of the party die in Midgar as they would have in absence of the whispers then it's an effort in fulity. Sephiroth basically already achieved what he set out to do by messing with the Whispers.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I don't get why everyone is ignoring that Zack's thing was over a month prior to the Remake's ending scene. It was framed that way because both things happened in the same location. Even the page I linked said they weren't happening at the same time. I know you have your whole thing about "temporally displaced timelines" but that's very speculative.

Yeah, it seems like people are taking that scene literally instead of as a stylistic choice. Zack's last stand didn't suddenly happen as the party left Midgar. (Probably used those words wrong but I hope people still get what I mean.)

 

[Wol]

Yeah, it seems like people are taking that scene literally instead of as a stylistic choice. Zack's last stand didn't suddenly happen as the party left Midgar. (Probably used those words wrong but I hope people still get what I mean.)

But it was implied that by defeating the Big ghost, the smaller ghosts weren't able to safeguard the timeline anymore.

Or maybe, somehow, the ghosts thought Zack staying alive would help their case... they knew the party was meddling with Big ghost.

OMG this shit is so cracked.

 

[cold_spirit]

Bedtime? Who needs it!

Why would that slip through the cracks if every universe is supposed to be the same up to a point?

I think there can be lots of variations between the universes. For example, Cloud visiting Jessie's home in Remake. Whispers didn't stop that because it's not paramount to the future of the planet. But big things, like Cloud meeting Aerith, that's gotta be maintained. Their meeting is essential.

The Whispers might be "stretched thin", which might be why they allow variations.

Terrier Stamp is one of those variations. It's inconsequential! However, I think the storytellers included it to hint that Zack's scenes are happening in another universe altogether.

Even the page I linked said they weren't happening at the same time.

I agree with the page you linked to wholeheartedly, that the two perspectives could not happen in the same time and place. One is happening in the "Beagle universe" in December, the other in the "Terrier universe" in September.

I don't think that idea is radical. Let's use Into the Spider-Verse as an example. In that film, the universe of Spider-Man Noir, which takes place in New York during the Great Depression, is happening concurrently with the modern-day universe of New York that Miles Morales lives in. One universe is in the 1930's and the other in the 2010's, happening side-by-side. You wouldn't call Into the Spider-Verse a time travel story because the universes are independent. Additionally, Spider-Man Noir will not lead to Into the Spider-Verse. They're different continuities.

Given how Zack's scenes are always presented as happening at the same time as the party's, I think the multiverse in FFVII will function similarly to Into the Spider-Verse.

...I wasn't. I dunno why you thought that. I don't particularly understand why you see it as being a binary choice between Zack timetravelling forwards to the time of the Singularity battle or different timelines.

I think my usage of "time travel" was poor. I don't think anyone believes that Zack time traveled forward or something. When I say time travel, I'm referring to the interpretation that the party's past was influenced by their actions (i.e., Zack survived in the party's past because of the defeat of the Whispers). I don't personally think that's the case because it creates additional questions, like why show a new version of Stamp, but I'm also repeating myself at this point, so I'll leave it at that.

If they also need to happen in every universe, no matter how different things are, even in the ones where Cloud succesfully leaves AVALANCHE behind, or kills Reno, or prevents the platedrop or Aerith or Barret or other members of the party die in Midgar as they would have in absence of the whispers then it's an effort in fulity. Sephiroth basically already achieved what he set out to do by messing with the Whispers.

What I'm saying is that before the Whisper's defeat, all universes needed to follow the big events. So there were no universes where Cloud didn't meet Aerith and so on. But after Remake? It's all fair game. I believe this is exactly what Sephiroth wants. He wants there to be universes where events are allowed to be so different that his Meteor scheme succeeds.

Why? Because he wants the opportunity to win? True to an extent, but I think there's more. Look at the Edge of Creation scene. Sephiroth has learned that the planet with join "it" someday, leading to the end of himself and Cloud. Whatever "it" is, it sounds a whole lot bigger than the stakes as we know them from the original game. This is why I feel a multiverse is appropriate.

Alright, let's get real. It's been two years since the release of Remake and we're all solidified in our interpretations. I probably won't convince you or anyone else. However, I do hope I've laid it out in such a way that everyone can see how I came to my conclusion.

To put simply: the existence of two Stamps and the placement of Zack's scenes could imply to some people (only me?) that there's a multiverse. It's wild, it's new, but I think it's absolutely plausible.

 

[Odysseus]

We've hit the speculation wall again where evidence is irrelevant because it can be twisted any way we please, so I'm out.

 

[Roger]

I don't think that idea is radical. Let's use Into the Spider-Verse as an example. In that film, the universe of Spider-Man Noir, which takes place in New York during the Great Depression, is happening concurrently with the modern-day universe of New York that Miles Morales lives in. One universe is in the 1930's and the other in the 2010's, happening side-by-side. You wouldn't call Into the Spider-Verse a time travel story because the universes are independent. Additionally, Spider-Man Noir will not lead to Into the Spider-Verse. They're different continuities.

Given how Zack's scenes are always presented as happening at the same time as the party's, I think the multiverse in FFVII will function similarly to Into the Spider-Verse.

Those continuities don't have a Midgar and a Shinra corporation. That is sucking up the lifeblood of the planet and killing it, which is resolved only through very specific intervention by Aerith during Meteorfall and the elimination of Shinra's executive board by the Weapons and AVALANCHE. Even with a Stamp design that is so different, I think the reactors of the city Zack is headed for probably function in a very similiar way to the ones we are already familiar with. You can leave Spider-Man Noir to it's own devices and trust it'll work out. Any world that resembles the FFVII world to the extent that Zack's does, not so much.

 

[Clement Rage]

Dunno. Still dunno.

 

[Roundhouse]

The closeness of the poll is intriguing...

 

[Prism]

I have no idea and I won’t even pretend to know! Though I think there’s enough information for the rest of your guys’ speculation to have foundation.

I guess I just don’t see how he can be meaningfully be added back into the story, given that he’s portrayed as this tragic mystery looming over the plot of the original. That’s a very specific role. I guess if they go totally off the rails with the story, they could find a place for him.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I guess I just don’t see how he can be meaningfully be added back into the story, given that he’s portrayed as this tragic mystery looming over the plot of the original. That’s a very specific role. I guess if they go totally off the rails with the story, they could find a place for him

You change the mystery entirely. That's what they're doing.

Instead of Zack being a phantom existence that Cloud's not aware of, they've shifted the identity crisis in a different direction. Instead of Cloud having zero recognition or memory of Zack, Cloud does remember him.

But apparently, he remembers him and his own identity wrong.

That way of recontextualizing the core themes of the original story is what I feel they're going for.

I can't help but feel like they'll be doing the same thing with the Promised Land too.

 

[Roundhouse]

The main arguments against Zack coming back and engagng with the main party are:

A) It ruins Cloud's persona arc.

Something we should remember, though, is that it would only ruin it prior to Cloud's breakdown. After that point Zack could absolutely join, and in fact it would be perfect timing because there is that stretch of time where Cloud is missing. This means he would be able to join up with them for the huge materia quests, the return to Midgar, the final fight with Sephiroth, and any other new things added for remake.

B) Cloud would surely have a Jenova type mental attack simply seeing Zack, so it could never work.

I remember people arguing this, and it sounds reasonable. But if Cloud really does remember Zack now, this begins to get a bit more flexible and interesting...

C) Zack must be kept away forever! This is Cloud's story!

It still is, but, to paraphrase from the BOTW trailer, the story of Cloud is also the story of Zack, particularly due to Crisis Core and Advent Children.

 

[Eerie]

Something we should remember, though, is that it would only ruin it prior to Cloud's breakdown. After that point Zack could absolutely join, and in fact it would be perfect timing because there is that stretch of time where Cloud is missing. This means he would be able to join up with them for the huge materia quests, the return to Midgar, the final fight with Sephiroth, and any other new things added for remake.

I want to be able to have Tifa and Cid as the leaders of the party though, something that would never happen with Zack around. I am not sure how Tifa would trust or not Zack at this point too, and we need to feel her loss from the party when she decides to remain in Mideel. We also need to understand her reasons better - tho I'd say this is on the way, if I have compare with what they did in Remake - because when you get there the first time, I think most people did not understand why she stayed in Mideel (I sure didn't). It is an important decision and moment in her arc and we definitely need more hindsight about it; the beginning of part 3 should definitely be Tifa searching for Cloud, because that's what she does in the OG, and it doesn't make sense if she's not the party leader to let her do that.

Also at this point, Cid is the only one whose arc isn't closed yet, so it's interesting to see the crew and others reacting to him as the leader. Cid is recognised as a guy with true leadership by those men, so I want to see it for what it is.

Edit: I forgot a word

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's like people deadass forget there are other characters in the story lol

 

[Lestat]

Big up Jessie yo

 

[Roundhouse]

Ah, in that case Eerie, he could be moved to the return to Midgar bit, and then the final Seph battle. That way everything works out.

 

[Torrie]

I'm on the same page with Prism on that. Voted for the "Zack = ghost" variant simply because I can't outsmart the creators, I HAVE NO CLUE. Once again, I'm fascinated by everyone being able to craft theories but I just want to be excited as SE have always been telling us to be, and prepare myself for literally anything that can happen.

A part of me secretly hopes to see an outcome that will disprove all the currently existing theories hahaha

 

[Kain424]

I'm still on the same "Zack is dead" platform from two years ago. I just find it odd how we've only seen Zack in either the general vicinity of his original demise or in an awfully suspicious manner otherwise.


Until I see him interacting with Barret or some other unlikely character, I'm not sure I can move from this perch.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Zack still being dead at this point would be such an intense troll-y red herring I'd have to admire the balls the writers would have to just sell something so deceptively to the audience. Like, that'd be fucked up but also hilarious.

 

[Kain424]

I'm telling ya. If we don't see Zack interacting with people we know to be around, in the present, with our group here... it's going to become more and more clear that is exactly the case.

 

[Ryeleigh]

@Makoeyes987 @Kain424

Eeeh, I've considered the whole "Zack is still dead" thing but personally it doesn't appeal to me. Like, Zack's character arc was already complete. He left peacefully (in CC). So to imply that they brought him back to life (for whatever so far unknown purpose) only for them to go "psyche! he was dead all along, he just wasn't aware of it!" just -- well, feels like a shitty move towards the character. Like, if that's the case then just keep him dead, you know?

 

[Eerie]

I'm still not sure about Zack's fate tbh. To me, that's really the big mystery; it seems obvious though that they want new players to be aware of him and his role in FFVII/R, so I would say him being a ghost stuck between the Lifestream and the living world (precluded by Jessie's father, the ghosts in chapter 11 and Cloud himself in the OG) wouldn't deteriorate his fate. If that would be the case, we could imagine that the white feather is Angeal's who wasn't able to welcome him in the Lifestream, for example.

Aerith seems to think that the sky robbed her of Zack, but we know that's not the case - because of the Singularity, because of what she did herself, taunted by Sephiroth. So this time, Angeal waited for nothing, and this is the unexpected turn; did Zack die, or did he not? Is he stuck somewhere? Why wouldn't he be able to recognise that he's dead, this time around? What kind of shenanigans would there be?

Also, the fact still remains that Stamp looks different. But we may have to wait that the party stumbles on Stamp again for us to understand if Zack is in another universe, or if a new timeline was created altogether for our party.

Last, and seeing how the 25th anniversary video went on, they sure are hyping up the reunion of Aerith and Zack, which we have never seen. So I'm very interested to see if they'll finally show it (my guts is yes; if only because dead!Aerith in her resolution looks awfully sad), and what kind of influence this will have on the story (I would say that they will be necessary in some way to defeat Sephiroth).