So where do we stand on the big remake mystery now?

What is going on with Zack?

  • He's in an alternate timeline, and we'll follow his adventures there, similar to a Laguna approach.

    Votes: 9 18.0%
  • He's in an alternate timeline, and eventually he will find a way to cross over to the main one.

    Votes: 12 24.0%
  • He's dead and in the lifestream, shown by the constant pure white backgrounds.

    Votes: 6 12.0%
  • He's in the main timeline with Cloud and co!

    Votes: 22 44.0%
  • He's in the main timeline but he's a ghost, that is why no one in the church reacts to him.

    Votes: 1 2.0%

  • Total voters
    50

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I don't think it shits on anything? The idea of clone Cloud and real Cloud merging in the lifestream sounds like an interesting way of handling things, and could also work if we have two timeline Clouds, where neither is a clone. If there is a clone, Clone Cloud could have actual Cloud's memories thanks to Jenova mimicry and then we get a new angle on the core FFVII themes of identity, resolved by the two combining in the lifestream. I don't know if that's what we're gonna get (and it's probably unlikely) but I don't think it's a theory that needs discussion shutting down, any more than anyone's theories do.

It literally shits on Cloud's progression as a character, the bonds he makes with everyone - and not only Aerith - on what the game shows you (true Cloud telling him how he only scrapped his knees back then), on what the devs say (true Cloud actually does show up for Tifa in her resolution scene, and his true personality also comes up around her). Literally everything is screaming that this cannot be a clone, if it's a clone it shits on every party member, on the player, but most of all, on Cloud himself. Like, you cut off the link we've made during TWO games with Cloud if you go "haha kidding it's just a clone after all!"

What's the idea behind this except "OMG shocking!"? There's no point. ZERO. It's not the story of FFVII. Why would we care more for real Cloud than for his clone? The party members would maybe prefer his clone with whom they've created bonds and trust?

People just go for the most shocking theory, really, they don't step back and look at the entirety of the story that's being told and why it's interesting.
 

Leafonthebreeze

Any/All
AKA
Leaf
To be clear, i think it's really unlikely that they are going to go with the clone Cloud idea, but I think you're taking a very narrow view of what could be done with a clone Cloud, that it would be played for shock value or a "haha gotcha" moment for the player, or that a clone Cloud is automatically completely worthless as a character. I think that there's interesting stuff that could be done with, for example, a clone with Cloud's memories (real or false) and a "real" Cloud with no memories. Especially if they come to connect at the end, and sort themselves out in the lifestream, it leads to really interesting questions about what makes a person, which truly is the real Cloud. You still end up with a "true Cloud" at the end, Tifa still helps him sort his memories, Aerith still has to sort through the existential question of who she's in love with. The gang still meet and make a connection with who they think is Cloud, and it isn't that different thematically to the og where they're connecting to a fake persona built on Zack. Again, I really highly doubt this is where they're going with this, I just disagree that it's a plot point that would just be for shock value or that it goes against the themes of ffvii. If anything it takes the identity theme and makes it way more literal and on the nose.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Are we really gonna go round and round with this? I say over and over that to me and countless others, Remake took a dump on the core themes and events, and you keep saying that it’s not a position that ppl are taking??

Disagreeing with the position is your privelege, but saying that the game doesn’t deliberately take actions that create the position is simply false.

How do you know the core themes are dumped on when the series isnt even half way done? You have an assumption. Unless you're aware of something I'm not, to somehow pre-emptively accuse it all of being shat on is your prejudgment. I'm going by what's here so far. Not a theory of what's to come.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
I'm going by what's here so far. Not a theory of what's to come.

Literally same. Your other mistake, that you keep making, is that this is some pre-judgement. Rebirth and FF7R3 could perfectly recreate every scene for the rest of the game, expand nothing, add no extra dialogue, change nothing, never refer to the deviations of Remake, and it wouldn’t change my position on this at all. It’s already happened.

FF7 Remake (and there is only one) appropriated the events of the Midgar section to tell a new story.

FF7 Rebirth will do the same with the next series of events from the OG.

If is has been so far faithful to what you liked about the OG, that’s perfectly fine. But you must concede that it deviated enough to garner a hugely negative reaction as well as a positive one. And this deviation is in regards to the core themes and events.
 
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Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
This is why I think it's better for the overall series to have a different goal from OG FF7. I know some like Ite will probably still feel lied to or robbed, but on the whole if the Re- series doesn't share intentions with the OG, then it'll be easier to accept as it's own thing.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I'm not sure what core themes are so violated in part 1 of Midgar but....

Rebirth and FF7R3 could perfectly recreate every scene for the rest of the game, expand nothing, add no extra dialogue, change nothing, never refer to the deviations of Remake, and it wouldn’t change my position on this at all. It’s already happened.

If you put it that way... :monster:

Well, I'm not sure how it can "appropriate" what it's meant to depict, but it can adapt it in a variable way. I don't know if the story is going to be all new or not, but if it isn't, I'm not sure how that equates to an appropriation for...whatever. Ultimately, that's just a media adaptation. And deviation in adaptions happen all the time.
 

Ite

Save your valediction (she/her)
AKA
Ite
This is why I think it's better for the overall series to have a different goal from OG FF7. I know some like Ite will probably still feel lied to or robbed, but on the whole if the Re- series doesn't share intentions with the OG, then it'll be easier to accept as it's own thing.

Totally. I’m actually coming around to the idea, and will be picking up Rebirth at launch. As a mind-bending time travel sequel, it’s certainly the best thing the Compilation has produced. But it ain’t no remake, and I will forever be butthurt — not about the prank, I love a good prank, but because… now there won’t be a remake.
 

MelodicEnigma

Pro Adventurer
There are different lines of thoughts, I'd say.

"The Remake deviates from core themes and events"—for the events, in a literal sense this is true. One doesn't need to do a scene by scene comparison to know this. But for core themes—are we comparing the core themes introduced in OG's Midgar to that of Remake's Midgar? Or, is this for the entire OG game and what was then expected to be compiled in the Remake's Midgar section? Is it that we're saying the Remake leans on themes that betray the core themes of the OG, or that the Remake just didn't hit the OG's themes enough in the first game? I'm a little late on this, but there's a back and forth happening here without much specific points in my eyes.
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
you can extrapolate the core themes of something from one entry in a series tho? eg GoT doesn't exactly change wildly from the point Ned Stark gets the call to King's Landing to Danerys living her Nibelheim fantasy. The story makes its thematic stance in season 1 alone.

This "you don't know the themes because the story is only one part of the whole" is a some really weird literary revision as to what a theme is.
 
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Golden Ear

Pro Adventurer
AKA
M. Prod
One thing I remember people complaining about after Remake (part 1) is that the theme of loss is no longer a core theme. The reasoning was because if characters can just keep getting revived because of the plot ghosts or because they live in a different timeline then we will never have our characters experience loss PERIOD.

I really don't understand this reasoning. Did people not understand that we defeated the plot ghost and what that means going forward? Characters can die now, the theme of loss can still be a central theme. Just because we currently see Zack alive doesn't negate loss being a central theme going forward. Tifa and Cloud's Resolution Scene in the garden was dealing with the loss they experienced in their life's, their hometown and now sector 7. The whole reason why Tifa is so afraid to confront Cloud about what happened to him is because she's afraid of losing him, this is still present in Remake. Tifa is still dealing with the loss of her father. Barret backstory is still setup to show how he has experienced loss and probably will still experience the loss of Dyne. Aerith has still dealt with the loss of her mother, Elmyra has dealt with the loss of her partner. Yuffie is dealing with the loss of pride of her homeland as well as her father who is in Jail, In intermission she experience the loss of Sonon. There is no reason why Red XIII is not still setup to show the loss of his father Seto. There is a good chance that Jessie actually died. Even if Biggs survived that would be a great way to have Biggs come to terms and deal with the loss of Jessie and possibly Wedge too. We even saw Leslie deal with the loss of a loved one. Heck if Zack is in an alternate timeline, he could be first hand experiencing the loss of Aerith (end of intermission) instead of the other way around which would be an interesting flip.

Do we know that Aerith will survive? Do we know that Zack will survive? Maybe we should wait a see if the core theme of loss will continue to play out before jumping the gun.
 
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Golden Ear

Pro Adventurer
AKA
M. Prod

This is a really great video explaining how Remake/Rebirth, while changing plot events, is preserving the story experience of FF7.
 

Wol

None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
AKA
Rosarian Shield
Point at least to me isn't how much is preserving, but how good is preserving it. If every new major addition is KH-levels of random convoluted nonsense then it will only dillute the good parts (also because OG already had a lot of plot elements to deal with).
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I think thematic dilution would be the accurate point in regards to how things could be handled or are handled in the future. Because given what's been known/shown presently, one can argue that addition can dilute whats present. That's not necessarily betraying or discarding it's themes; that's more a matter of execution.

You can absolutely and consistently adapt the core themes of FFVII in a new medium and dilute them because your adaption went too far in the weeds or added things that made them less cogent. Not to say I think that's what's going on here (yet) but it's a valid concern.
 

MelodicEnigma

Pro Adventurer
Mostly that's how I feel. I think I've said it before, maybe in another thread, that the actual telling of the core themes in the OG, i.e. the scenes that represent those things with strong impact, haven't happened yet, and as Golden pointed out, there isn't evidence that stuff WON'T still happen in the same degree we've gotten stuff already. The end result taste may be a bit different because of the other ingredients in the pot, but it's still there—but this is likely how people feel NOW, thus the concern of how the flavoring will continue to shift. Going from "mmm sweet" to "ugh, it's still sweet but now a little sour" can be a big deal for people, or can be welcoming.

I just played through the OG, and I mean, at the end of the day, the Remake fit a bunch of stuff that represents latter things, within it's Midgar section + new stuff to give something that is different, yet similar taste. I always thought that was the intention of the devs, and it's within the bounds of how a remake of something can function. OG Midgar doesn't nearly show as much, and the Remake still hit the same points it made even if in a different way. It is additional, but I can't blame people for not liking a shift in taste. Is what it is, if it's about their taste buds. (I swear I'm not hungry, it's just the best way to put it atm lmao)
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
Not exactly. Because the biggest relevant changes are made only at the last chapter. The KH jank is all there.
If I go by all the previous chapters I also think the game is great but that doesn't mean nothing about if they can pull off new additions (actually, they felt bad).

All the new stuff coming from Compilation or Remake failed to live up to OGs quality, for the most part.
Aerith and Sephiroth’s foresight and the Whispers are woven throughout Remake leading up to the last chapter, though. I’ll agree that the last chapter was kinda jarring but there was buildup towards that direction all throughout the game even going as far as the opening cinematic.

And for as vocal as some people were against the plot changes, do they represent the majority? Because you’d think this direction would be enough to kill the excitement for the rest of the remake if it were such a problem, and I’m sure it has for some people, but by and large it seems to be the thing people are still talking about.

One thing I remember people complaining about after Remake (part 1) is that the theme of loss is no longer a core theme. The reasoning was because if characters can just keep getting revived because of the plot ghosts or because they live in a different timeline then we will never have our characters experience loss PERIOD.

I really don't understand this reasoning. Did people not understand that we defeated the plot ghost and what that means going forward? Characters can die now, the theme of loss can still be a central theme. Just because we currently see Zack alive doesn't negate loss being a central theme going forward. Tifa and Cloud's Resolution Scene in the garden was dealing with the loss they experienced in their life's, their hometown and now sector 7. The whole reason why Tifa is so afraid to confront Cloud about what happened to him is because she's afraid of losing him, this is still present in Remake. Tifa is still dealing with the loss of her father. Barret backstory is still setup to show how he has experienced loss and probably will still experience the loss of Dyne. Aerith has still dealt with the loss of her mother, Elmyra has dealt with the loss of her partner. Yuffie is dealing with the loss of pride of her homeland as well as her father who is in Jail, In intermission she experience the loss of Sonon. There is no reason why Red XIII is not still setup to show the loss of his father Seto. There is a good chance that Jessie actually died. Even if Biggs survived that would be a great way to have Biggs come to terms and deal with the loss of Jessie and possibly Wedge too. We even saw Leslie deal with the loss of a loved one. Heck if Zack is in an alternate timeline, he could be first hand experiencing the loss of Aerith (end of intermission) instead of the other way around which would be an interesting flip.

Do we know that Aerith will survive? Do we know that Zack will survive? Maybe we should wait a see if the core theme of loss will continue to play out before jumping the gun.
This is pretty much why the idea of Remake abandoning the themes of the OG sounds like hyperbole to me. I think it’s absolutely fair to point out that the remake isn’t finished adapting the rest of the OG because it’s the OG as a whole story that established those themes in the first place. Ody’s point about looking at the remake as having a different goal from the OG is pretty fair, though by no means do I think this precludes this project from still being considered a remake. It’s a modern recreation of an older work, that is a remake regardless of whether it follows arbitrary rules of what a remake “should” be.
 

Kain424

Old Man in the Room
I think it's fair to point out how that final chapter essentially feels like it comes out of left field. While, sure, one can go back and see elements being set up over the course of the game, that final bit still leaves the player feeling it was unearned. We don't really learn the nature of the Whispers, their abilities, who controls them, what they're actual function is within the story and on and on. But we're still expected to fight them. We had to find out in an Ultimania the three main ones we battle operate as some sort of past-future boomerang spirits of characters from an entirely different piece of media. And then we're battling Sephiroth? This section is not well set up, nor is it concluded in any way that really makes sense. Everything, for the most part, seems to reset to where we were at by this point in the original game... so what are we supposed to take from this?

That said, I have to take exception to the assertion Remake is some "Kingdom Hearts bs", because frankly, it's not. I am not a huge fan of Kingdom Hearts, but I did play through them. Those games establish a world, it's rules, and its values. And then doesn't really stray from there. You see things coming, and they remain remarkably consistent across titles, if overly maudlin. There is no Chapter 18-style wild turn into something the game never was to that point. So this is a silly thing to say.

I think it’s absolutely fair to point out that the remake isn’t finished adapting the rest of the OG because it’s the OG as a whole story that established those themes in the first place.

I agree. One could, having never experienced the original game, come to the conclusion the game is about the need to defy fate. Hell, one could still come to the same conclusion if operating under the assumption the game is a sequel to the original game in some form. But if events still play out the same... if Aerith still dies where we know she died before, then it's really just the same thing with extra steps, isn't it?

As for our main Mystery, it's definitely a tough one. But just as Sephiroth was more present in Remake, I think we can expect the Zack mystery to also take much more center stage time here in Rebirth. Whether that's a dealbreaker for some remains to be seen.
 

Roundhouse

Pro Adventurer
This is where I'm currently at:

The Very Interesting Direction:

Zack is in the same timeline. What we see at the end of remake is what happened due to the defeat of the whispers -- the past was changed to where he lived, which also resulted in the change in the crisp wrapper for some silly reason, and whatever else. When we see Zack walking past Aeris and co, it's not a literal thing, it's just showing that they are walking over the exact same spot that Zack dragged Cloud over for dramatic impact. Either there is some silly handwavey explanation for two buster swords, or there is only one buster sword and as people have suggested, we only see Zack before Cloud has taken it. The only real issue to sort out with the second option is when the Zack at the church scene takes place.

The Interesting Direction:

Zack is in an alt timeline. Eventually he will find a way to engage with the characters from the main line, but it's hard to say when this will happen. This has some potential! They can use the alt timeline to do all the wacky and weird stuff that scares fans in the normal timeline. Star Trek has had fun with this kind of thing in the past, with a 'mirror universe'. Unfortunately it can also become cartoonish and out of control if handled badly. It's also harder to care when there are two different universes.

The Meh Direction:

Zack is dead and it was all misleading and simultaneously a waste of potential. Could they still find a way to make this good? Maybe? Not sure why people would be interested in this though, aside from it being a way to salvage the original story.
 

ultima786

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ultima
I think I’d be totally cool with Zack being dead and him somehow being a Lifestream ghost who encourages Cloud during his adventure, similar to how they did it with Advent a children, where Aerith and Zack periodically inspire cloud to get over his mental blocks
 

Roundhouse

Pro Adventurer
Zack encouraging Cloud from the lifestream is...fine, but doesn't really gel with the way the ending of remake and intermission are framed, or even the rebirth trailer. They are making it seem a bit too dramatic for that.
 

waw

Pro Adventurer
It literally shits on Cloud's progression as a character, the bonds he makes with everyone - and not only Aerith - on what the game shows you (true Cloud telling him how he only scrapped his knees back then), on what the devs say (true Cloud actually does show up for Tifa in her resolution scene, and his true personality also comes up around her). Literally everything is screaming that this cannot be a clone, if it's a clone it shits on every party member, on the player, but most of all, on Cloud himself. Like, you cut off the link we've made during TWO games with Cloud if you go "haha kidding it's just a clone after all!"
What's the idea behind this except "OMG shocking!"? There's no point. ZERO. It's not the story of FFVII.
Eerie, you seem to have a really strong reaction to this silly theory even being put out on the table. I originally stated very strongly I'm happy to be wrong and likely am, I just see a few pieces that could make this work. That said, in your attacks on this, in your big reaction, you've missed a key piece to what I said:

I absolutely believe if something like this happens, what we're going to see is Real Cloud with Zack just stay in a Mako Poisoned state. We get Fake Cloud, fighting it out, and then the two merge in Lifestream Scene, reconciling the Not-Just-Made-Up-By-Cloud, Cloud, but also generated by Sephiroth. Clone/Fake Cloud and Real Cloud would have to merge. It actually addresses your central complain. The fixed Cloud is both.

And this literally builds on the original Lifestream scene. Folks might forget, but that scene isn't just about getting back to Real Cloud. One of the things that happens is he accepts all of his adventures up to that point. The Mako Bombing, battling Rufus, the Temple of the Ancients? Everything. Though we know he struggles, he has become a hero. He is incredibly powerful and gifted. Those are things Cloud reconciles with. All aspects of his persona. My suggestion is exactly that, just on a two bodied scale.

That doesn't shit on anything, it doesn't render those relationships false or fake, and it doesn't contradict the themes of the Compilation. The entire body-construction thing is a big deal in OTWTAS and is a central element for how AC works. We know those things helped inform Remake. It's not some weird stretch here or an assault on everything you love dear. Frankly, I'm more likely wrong than right.

How do you know the core themes are dumped on when the series isnt even half way done?
I do lean toward Mako on this. So, I know that folks point to the story about Sakuguchi (IIRC) and loss here, about Aerith's death. But we also have some commentary that they're revisiting and closing this story quite some time later. 20 years? 30 years? After you lose someone? You may not be in the same place to say "You know what, we accept these bittersweet losses and just move on." It is silly to think that the story can NOT grow from where it first was. Which it can, and certainly the compilation has added a lot.

So in Remake, we see Whispers save Barret, Biggs seems to be around, Zack is on his feet. Death must be meaningless, right? No sense of loss? There's really many other ways to deal with this that doesn't betray everything in the original. Remake really is the setup, and we do have loss at this point. We experience Jesse's death scene. But I think part of where this theme is evolving is "refusing to let people go." It's a part of that loss, part of those 5 stages of grief, where you do whatever you can to not let go. I expect some of that in this game.

But it's also the final installment of a huge compilation spanning multiple works. I frankly won't be surprised if they overcome those losses or prevent them in some way. I won't feel the story is betrayed. The OG is still the OG and nothing they do here will change that.
 
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Torrie

astray ay-ay-ay
The automated translation keeps suggesting "FFVII Reverse" instead of "Rebirth" and I wonder if I've missed out on something or all these timelines are pulling my leg hahahaha anyway, that would be a perfect R3 title, I guess. Nvm, let's keep on waiting.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I remember all the early fan-translations of Birth By Sleep stuff kept rendering the "Unversed" as "Unbirthed" :lol: Always seemed like an awfully dark/controversial way for KH to go before the official name was announced, lol.
 
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