Sony's Spider-Man: Now a Part of the MCU; And Now Not Again; And Now Is Again

[The Twilight Mexican]

If Aunt May gets shot because of it again, I swear you better just let the fossil die this time instead of making a deal with the goddamn Devil. One more day will be all you fucking get.

 

[Super Mario]

Or Dormamu since they haven't adopted ghost rider into any MCU format yet. :x Dormamu's as close to the devil as I can picture currently until they bring mephisto and ghost rider.

 

[Tennyo]

NO MEPHISTO

NO MEPHISTO = NO ONE MORE DAY

Or so I'd like to believe.

 

[Kermitu Kleric Katie]

If Aunt May gets shot because of it again, I swear you better just let the fossil die this time instead of making a deal with the goddamn Devil. One more day will be all you fucking get.

I hope to God they know better than to adapt One More Day. Amost everyone hates One More Day. Even Stan Lee hates One More Day.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Look, WE KNOW PETE'S ORIGIN STORY. If it's Pete, DON'T TELL US. Hell, don't even have Pete tell other supers.

If it's Miles, go over it briefly since it's not literally part of the American collective unconscious yet, but do not make another origin movie for Spidey. You've had TWO. That's enough.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I am curious to see how people feel about:
1) Peter in both films
2) Peter in Civil War transitioning to Miles in Spider-man
3) Miles in both films

I'm clearly a proponent of option 2 myself.




X

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I'm more for option 2, but I think they'll need more than just the one movie to make that transition.

And if they plan to put Peter back in high school, they probably agree.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I'm more for option 2, but I think they'll need more than just the one movie to make that transition.

And if they plan to put Peter back in high school, they probably agree.

To be fair, they plan to put "Spider-man" back in high school, and Miles still fits that. I think that there's a way to do it just between Civil War & Spidey 2017, but that's because I feel that Peter is Peter and as shitty as it is, I don't really feel bad about cutting his time short - even with a new actor.



X

 

[Tetsujin]

They're not gonna introduce Peter Parker into the MCU after finally being able to use him and then have someone else be Spider-Man after one movie. I don't think that seems very realistic.
Regardless of there being five Peter Parker movies already, since they're not MCU they don't really "count". Peter has been THE Spider-Man for decades - and he's going to get his fair share of films before they ever think about transitioning. That's what I believe.

I don't think anyone needs to worry about yet another origin movie either since they introduce Spidey in Civil War first. I'd think the 2017 movie would be in chronological order and take place after it.

Would be stupid anyway. Even with TASM I didn't understand why they needed to start at the very beginning again. It was the same shit we had seen only a decade before - except slightly different. Coulda been handled in an opening sequence a la Incredible Hulk imo.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

As much as you say they don't really "count" Marvel bumped back their ENTIRE release line up to add Spider-man into the mix in place of one of their own films, so while it's still technically Sony's gig and it isn't being done directly by Marvel Studios, I have to say that it absolutely counts.

Here's why I'm standing by the idea of making the transition from Civil War to Spider-man the transition from Peter to Miles:

• Civil War absolutely HAS to be about Peter Parker. His identity is the bombshell that audiences are familiar enough that selling that as the reveal of a registered superhero makes sense. They know what his secret identity means and who it affects in his life, and revealing Miles that way doesn't make sense. It doesn't hold the weight that that unmasking needs to.

• That means that you get the Peter Parker and the MCU happening that people have been waiting for because he gets to be tagging along with Ironman & Cap in a single film: next best thing to being in an Avengers film. Peter fans = happy.

• After that, we know that Sony is going back to doing a high school era Spider-man for their film. With Peter's identity revealed in Civil War, that opens a HUGE can of worms for his narrative taking place in a high school setting. Literally EVERYONE knows who he is post-Civil War, and he's gonna be a celebrity or a target and that tone doesn't seem to match what they're going for, tonally speaking. That's why I think that Ganke & Miles' story would work better as a high school Spidey.

• With Miles, you start with the fallout from Civil War and give him his "Uncle Ben" moment where he realizes that he needs to be Spider-man, but Miles WANTS to be a normal school kid and deal with all that and Ganke is his buddy who keeps him going for it. Their dynamic works for a high school-type movie in a way that's also new and interesting.

• Lastly, Marvel's too socially aware that they can't possibly be blind to the fact that the whole "Donald for Spiderman" thing hit hard before the Amazing Spider-man films, and is going nuts again now. Most comic/geek related sites have made some sort of mention on why we should finally get Miles in a movie, and if they don't, it'll be an excuse to get called out on it all over the place. On top of that, this summer, the current comics are rolling everything together and bringing Miles into the main All-New Marvel universe, so they have a huge agenda to push his popularity and a film that's connected to the MCU IS that opportunity. (If I were them, I'd announce both actors for Peter & Miles at the same time).




X

 

[Tetsujin]

As much as you say they don't really "count" Marvel bumped back their ENTIRE release line up to add Spider-man into the mix in place of one of their own films, so while it's still technically Sony's gig and it isn't being done directly by Marvel Studios, I have to say that it absolutely counts.

Well, yeah?
The one that is in the MCU counts. The five previous movies don't. That's what I was saying.
We've had Peter Parker share his universe with other Marvel heroes for exactly zero movies. Just one/one and a half might not be satisfactory enough. Speaking personally, I definitely wanna see Peter in Infinity War. Both parts.

Also, I'm in doubt as to whether the Civil War is even gonna feature the Spidey unmasking stuff and registration in the same way. I don't even know how much of an impact it would have considering he would literally be the first superhero introduced in the MCU with a secret identity.

I don't know at which point exactly the Spidey deal went through and how far pre-production is for Civil War or was at that point, but depending on those things, Civil War might still be much closer to the Spidey-less version they had in mind than most people assume.

the whole "Donald for Spiderman" thing hit hard before the Amazing Spider-man films, and is going nuts again now.

So Marvel wants to replace Garfield because they feel he is too old and wanna go back to the high school setting and people are pushing for another guy in his thirties?

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Sure the five previous films don't tie in to the continuity, but they count towards the literal public awareness of Spider-man, which is what counts for Civil War's reveal. It matters because he's the neighborhood kid trying to help out, and what that reveal means for someone that age. The specifics aren't important aside from that. (Sure that's assuming it'll be like the comic reveal, but I can't see the push for his presence in Civil War being so big aside from that since it was THE catalyst in the event). Also, if I recall correctly, Civil War starts filming in April, but the Marvel Sony thing had been pushing for it throughout development, so they probably had versions for both prepped.

I'm probably in the minority here, but if we're running into a third set of Spider-man films (even if they intermittently cross into the big MCU events), I have basically no interest in Peter Parker's story coming in for round 3. I just feel honestly burned out on it, and I want something new and this seems like the best opportunity to transition that change, because it lets him go out on a high note (unlike every other Spidey film series).

Also, I didn't think that Marvel replacing Garfield was related to his age. I think that starting over was a prerequisite for their crossover deal to establish it as disconnected from Sony's existing continuity. (Plus, 30-something actors play high school age kids constantly, so that's no surprise).



X

 

[Tennyo]

IMHO Spider-Man unmasking in the MCU won't play out as well as it did in the comics. I think it is safe to assume Cival War won't go down the same way.

Also, X, with how concerned you were about staying true to Miles' story I'm kind of surprised. Without a good MCU foundation for Peter it won't be the same at all. Yeah, the audience knows Peter from a different continuity but if you know the characters don't it takes away from the impact.

I mean, all my previous suggestions were about bringing in both Peter and Miles and making both sides happy. I feel like your suggestions would require just as many changes as mine. Peter being Miles' Uncle Ben figure would be out.

I also think that with all the hooing and hahing people have been doing about wanting Spider-Man in the MCU it would be a dick move to not have it be Peter.

I also still really just want a Peter/Miles team up.

 

[Roger]

While Civil War is a Ironman/Cap/Spiderman story and he should have a place there, a brandnew, fresh to the game teenage Spider-Man unmasking himself, the day after he gets bitten doesn't mean the same thing as the veteran superhero, pillar of the community Spider-Man doing it. You can't portray it as a powermove by Tony if even the layman moviewatcher knows Spider-Man doesn't mean much to the MCU Captain America and the rest of them. Spider-Man needs to be something more/other then being the guy that unmasks in Civil War anyway, so why not Miles?

 

[Tennyo]

Why not Miles unmask? Is that what you are asking?

Or do you just mean why not have Miles in the MCU instead of Peter sans unmasking? I'm hoping we get both.

 

[Roger]

Why not Miles unmask? Is that what you are asking?

Why not just have Miles be Spider-Man I mean. He doesn't have unmask. Masks aren't really a thing in MCU so far anyway.

 

[Tennyo]

Ah okay. I misunderstoood what you meant there for a sec.

IMHO if we don't get Peter in the MCU I think they should continue with The Amazing Spider-Man, but they probably won't. I feel like after abandoning two different franchises they kind of need to use Peter.

IMHO I think we could have both. Skipping Peter completely alters Miles' origin story. I'd like a compromise that uses both and still has Peter be somewhat of a catalyst, even if it isn't as great of an impact.

 

[Tetsujin]

(Plus, 30-something actors play high school age kids constantly, so that's no surprise)

And it's a trend that never stops being silly. I liked Garfield as Spidey but at no point was I ever convinced I was looking at a high schooler.

If you want the character to stay young for a reasonable amount of time, maybe you should cast someone who isn't ten plus years older than the character they are playing lest you have Spidey graduate from high school around the time of the second movie yet again at which point they'd really oughta ask themselves why they keep putting him back in there every reboot.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

IMHO Spider-Man unmasking in the MCU won't play out as well as it did in the comics. I think it is safe to assume Cival War won't go down the same way.

Also, X, with how concerned you were about staying true to Miles' story I'm kind of surprised. Without a good MCU foundation for Peter it won't be the same at all. Yeah, the audience knows Peter from a different continuity but if you know the characters don't it takes away from the impact.

While Civil War is a Ironman/Cap/Spiderman story and he should have a place there, a brandnew, fresh to the game teenage Spider-Man unmasking himself, the day after he gets bitten doesn't mean the same thing as the veteran superhero, pillar of the community Spider-Man doing it. You can't portray it as a powermove by Tony if even the layman moviewatcher knows Spider-Man doesn't mean much to the MCU Captain America and the rest of them. Spider-Man needs to be something more/other then being the guy that unmasks in Civil War anyway, so why not Miles?

@Tenny: It won't be exactly the same without a legacy of films connected to the continuity -- but it can still represent the same thing in a meaningful way. I'll explain how in great detail in a moment.

@Minato: I'm also not saying that you make it seem like this happened the day after he gets bitten. That makes ZERO sense. Also, there's also a reason that it doesn't work the same with Miles, because Miles' secret identity is really important. I'll also get to this.


With things like Twins on their way (and the Inhumans in AoS and the Netflix series), it's clear that the Marvel universe is starting to expand beyond the figurehead-type heroes, and Civil War is going to need to help bridge that gap from what we have now with the Avengers into the street-level heroes.

Civil War is probably gonna go something like this:

You take Stark's pragmatic approach to how to deal with an increasing number of superpowered people impacting the world and pit it against Roger's man-out-of-time view of the world. It's like the plot of The Winter Soldier showing why Cap won't stand for stopping crimes before they happen, even if now we see the benefit to something like that in the modern world view. This is gonna tug at the memories WWII registration for him, and Stark's attempt to use it as a way to let them to the most good without being vigilantes with the Ultron program having failed as the universal answer to crime.

You combine that with the getting a hero that the (movie going) public knows on Stark's side (Spider-man), and show how Cap is fighting for his view to be in the right but initially starts from a losing position. New Spidey suit, registered heroes doing lots for the greater good in their community, etc. That then comes around to getting the best of things as things falter on the other side when the public-facing "I am Iron-man, come at me bro" approach fundamentally fails for the street-level heroes. The fallout of Civil War and unmasking a ground-level hero like Spidey ultimately results in an active threat to Parker and his family.

What Spider-man comes to represent from that is that ANYONE can be a hero and make a difference in the MCU, and it isn't just limited to the notable Avengers figureheads with their faces known and who stand identified in the public eye all the time. Anyone can make a difference - because that's the whole message of Steve Rogers' journey in the MCU. That's what the inclusion of Spidey into Civil War can be all about and why it's still Cap's movie, because that's his arc. Tony makes the heroes everyone knows, and Rogers makes the little everyman heroes. It's also why I think that Spider-man 2017 is following it so closely.

Now, if you run with that general framework into the same scenario that I talked about with Spider-man 2017 suffering the fallout of Civil War with the "Death of Spider-man" scenario, Spider-man as a hero is an icon of upholding the ideal that anyone can do what it takes to be a hero & Peter Parker (now openly registered and identified) dies saving his family. With that, you still get that impact behind his sacrifice because he's carrying Cap's legacy, and that icon of "Spider-man" still matters to Miles and the people of the MCU because the events of Civil War will still put him into the public eye in a way that makes it matter.

Miles can have to figure out how to be a hero that everyone was counting on to make those things matter, while still trying to make his real life work. He's still the outsider because he's the first of the masked MCU heroes that would remain anonymous because of all of the aforementioned reasons, and has that since he'd be unregistered when with the rest of the Avengers. He'd stand out in a way that Peter wouldn't post-Civil War. It helps to bring the MCU down to ground level where the world is deeper everywhere and anyone can find a way to help out and be a hero. (I'm thinking that the Netflix series & SHIELD will start to lay more groundwork for this as well over the next two years). He's the high school kid trying to make it with the Avengers and fill the position that everybody fought to protect in Civil War, and that's why Peter & Miles having fundamentally and inextricably different roles in why they'd be how they are in the MCU.


That's the sort of tl;dr of how I saw it going down that doesn't really seem too far removed from how it works in the comics (being as they're events in the 616 and 1610 universes with different Peter Parkers & all), the point is that EVERYBODY in the cinematic universe's public knows that Peter Parker was a hero named Spider-man by the end of Civil War, and remember him after he falls because of it, and it's that vacuum that Miles exists in as his "Uncle Ben" moment, and trying to continually surmount it and uphold that legacy that makes his story so interesting to me, and how I think it'd run well in the MCU as the "high school" Spider-man, whereas a post-Civil War Peter Parker never could.




X

 

[Roger]

And it's a trend that never stops being silly. I liked Garfield as Spidey but at no point was I ever convinced I was looking at a high schooler.

If you want the character to stay young for a reasonable amount of time, maybe you should cast someone who isn't ten plus years older than the character they are playing lest you have Spidey graduate from high school around the time of the second movie yet again at which point they'd really oughta ask themselves why they keep putting him back in there every reboot.

I gotta say I don't get it. Spider-Man TAS had him in college, and it worked much better. His relationship with Mary-Jane, and the sciences he and Doc Conners and Octopus dealt with, can't that as well if he was a 15 year old.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Have to say I love that plot and justification you laid out up there, X.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I gotta say I don't get it. Spider-Man TAS had him in college, and it worked much better. His relationship with Mary-Jane, and the sciences he and Doc Conners and Octopus dealt with, can't that as well if he was a 15 year old.

That's why I hold to that Miles' story works far better as the high school kid than Peter's does (on top of the rest of the reasons I listed about how I see them as different in the potential MCU framework I wrote up). Him & Ganke's friendship, awkward dating, and all the weird friends dynamic that they have sells that type of story SO much better than the prodigy scientist Peter Parker.

Have to say I love that plot and justification you laid out up there, X.

That means a lot to me coming from someone who knows Marvel as well as you do, Tres. Thanks a ton!




X

 

[Tennyo]

And it's a trend that never stops being silly. I liked Garfield as Spidey but at no point was I ever convinced I was looking at a high schooler.

He looked more like a highschooler than Maguire ever did.

@Tenny: It won't be exactly the same without a legacy of films connected to the continuity -- but it can still represent the same thing in a meaningful way. I'll explain how in great detail in a moment.

@Minato: I'm also not saying that you make it seem like this happened the day after he gets bitten. That makes ZERO sense. Also, there's also a reason that it doesn't work the same with Miles, because Miles' secret identity is really important. I'll also get to this.


With things like Twins on their way (and the Inhumans in AoS and the Netflix series), it's clear that the Marvel universe is starting to expand beyond the figurehead-type heroes, and Civil War is going to need to help bridge that gap from what we have now with the Avengers into the street-level heroes.

Civil War is probably gonna go something like this:

You take Stark's pragmatic approach to how to deal with an increasing number of superpowered people impacting the world and pit it against Roger's man-out-of-time view of the world. It's like the plot of The Winter Soldier showing why Cap won't stand for stopping crimes before they happen, even if now we see the benefit to something like that in the modern world view. This is gonna tug at the memories WWII registration for him, and Stark's attempt to use it as a way to let them to the most good without being vigilantes with the Ultron program having failed as the universal answer to crime.

You combine that with the getting a hero that the (movie going) public knows on Stark's side (Spider-man), and show how Cap is fighting for his view to be in the right but initially starts from a losing position. New Spidey suit, registered heroes doing lots for the greater good in their community, etc. That then comes around to getting the best of things as things falter on the other side when the public-facing "I am Iron-man, come at me bro" approach fundamentally fails for the street-level heroes. The fallout of Civil War and unmasking a ground-level hero like Spidey ultimately results in an active threat to Parker and his family.

What Spider-man comes to represent from that is that ANYONE can be a hero and make a difference in the MCU, and it isn't just limited to the notable Avengers figureheads with their faces known and who stand identified in the public eye all the time. Anyone can make a difference - because that's the whole message of Steve Rogers' journey in the MCU. That's what the inclusion of Spidey into Civil War can be all about and why it's still Cap's movie, because that's his arc. Tony makes the heroes everyone knows, and Rogers makes the little everyman heroes. It's also why I think that Spider-man 2017 is following it so closely.

Now, if you run with that general framework into the same scenario that I talked about with Spider-man 2017 suffering the fallout of Civil War with the "Death of Spider-man" scenario, Spider-man as a hero is an icon of upholding the ideal that anyone can do what it takes to be a hero & Peter Parker (now openly registered and identified) dies saving his family. With that, you still get that impact behind his sacrifice because he's carrying Cap's legacy, and that icon of "Spider-man" still matters to Miles and the people of the MCU because the events of Civil War will still put him into the public eye in a way that makes it matter.

Miles can have to figure out how to be a hero that everyone was counting on to make those things matter, while still trying to make his real life work. He's still the outsider because he's the first of the masked MCU heroes that would remain anonymous because of all of the aforementioned reasons, and has that since he'd be unregistered when with the rest of the Avengers. He'd stand out in a way that Peter wouldn't post-Civil War. It helps to bring the MCU down to ground level where the world is deeper everywhere and anyone can find a way to help out and be a hero. (I'm thinking that the Netflix series & SHIELD will start to lay more groundwork for this as well over the next two years). He's the high school kid trying to make it with the Avengers and fill the position that everybody fought to protect in Civil War, and that's why Peter & Miles having fundamentally and inextricably different roles in why they'd be how they are in the MCU.


That's the sort of tl;dr of how I saw it going down that doesn't really seem too far removed from how it works in the comics (being as they're events in the 616 and 1610 universes with different Peter Parkers & all), the point is that EVERYBODY in the cinematic universe's public knows that Peter Parker was a hero named Spider-man by the end of Civil War, and remember him after he falls because of it, and it's that vacuum that Miles exists in as his "Uncle Ben" moment, and trying to continually surmount it and uphold that legacy that makes his story so interesting to me, and how I think it'd run well in the MCU as the "high school" Spider-man, whereas a post-Civil War Peter Parker never could.

This sounds really good actually, but I'm just extremely paranoid that it is all too little too late and the whole thing will just feel shoehorned in. After how badly Sony messed up I just really want to see Peter done proper justice.

 

[Tennyo]

Christopher Daniel Barnes weighs in on Spidey being in the MCU.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Ethnicity rumor mill: http://www.hypable.com/spider-man-wont-be-white/




X