SPOILERS Split from "Hopes for the remake (story/content)"

[Clement Rage]

People were talking about GOT, HP, and TLOU2, all of whom have horribly abusive fandoms (which is not by any means saying that there is no legitimate criticisms of those works.)

I am not claiming all criticism of Remake is bad by any means. Look at my reviews, I'm not without problems with it, far from it.

But things like the devs simply don't care going forward or that they're laughing at the fanbase', those are dramatic claims. Cliffhangers and waiting a long time for a sequel is not some kind of indication of failure or vindictive developers, it's just the natural consequences of how much time has to be put in to create projects this big. (Also, pandemic). Waiting years for new instalments is routine for me, it's just how these things work. It always has been.

Whatever else we're criticising, I think it's unfair to assume the devs don't care about planning this story or are just trolling the fanbase. It's a very difficult game to make, the production values are high, they obviously care about the story enough to carefully remake and update problematic stuff like Wall Market rather than gloss over it. It would be much easier to make something entirely new and free of expectations, or just cheaply update the graphics and launch the same game shot for shot. But instead hard time has been sunk into this, it's given the full AAA treatment. The devs have got to spend years of their life on this stuff, they're not doing that for some kind of practical joke or jab at the fanbase.

I don't think there's any more of an incomplete narrative arc than there would be in a simple part 1 remade.

Spoiler: crap, we're outside remake spoilers

We wrap up our dealing with Shinra and the Whispers, but with the hanging threads of what the consequences are of defeating the Whispers and putting Rufus in power. We're off the chains of history, but that means that the safety net is gone now. The guarantees of defeating Sephiroth and saving the Planet is gone. It puts tension back into the story, because we can no longer be certain what's going to happen next.

They may horribly screw up part two, they may not. We'll see. But I think it's an honest effort to tell a story, not trying to one up the fanbase somehow.

FF7 Remake absolutely could fail, its an enormous investment that may not be made back if people don't buy subsequent instalments. It's an enormous gamble to hang so much on this.

 

[KindOfBlue]

A change that doesn't feel dissonant with the game's setting, that doesn't smell like overconvoluted KH plot elements.

I dunno friend, to me it didn’t feel too different from hunting down a fanatic who thinks his mother is a 2000 year old alien, who then turns into a human-monster hybrid with wing shaped tentacles and throws the sun at you, all the while facing an alien who can wipe out entire populations using crazy mind powers and also taking down, among many ridiculous enemies including a house, several kaijus that were created by...the planet to protect itself? Not to mention a tiny little scene where two main characters go inside the planet, allowing one character to access the other’s memories and rescue him from being possessed by that 2000 year old alien I mentioned and another scene where a deceased main character also goes inside the planet and uses its energy to save the world from a giant meteor because she’s a descendent of an ancient race of beings and blah blah blah...

...look, I love FF7 but the plot is ridiculous. I think it’s okay to admit that. But we love it anyways! We love these amazing characters and their interactions with each other despite how silly this whole thing is.

But the worse is the execution, where a lot of non-explained complex stuff happens on screen in like a hour, where you're just like: looks cool but what the hell aka style over substance.

I’d say this is the most fair critique of the ending sequence, though I wouldn’t go as far as calling forced as there was some pretty consistent buildup all throughout the story but as I’ve said before, your mileage may vary.

Anybody have any insight into how Japanese fans responded to the whisper stuff?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The way a game looks is the easiest thing to get right. The best thing about this Remake is the graphics and art style and how they feel like a natural evolution of the OG. But how a game looks has nothing to do with how well the story of a game is written. The OG proved as much by capturing people with its story while the actual game was in lego graphics. To feel like the graphics are being greater... "weight" by the creators than how the story is told... hurts... because for a lot of us, FF games have never been about the graphics; they have been about the story.

I will say that the Remake might feel better once Part 2 gets here, and it'll be possible to play both games back to back. But most entries in series that are supposed to be complete entries don't feel like their narrative arc is being cut off before it's even started. Even when it's the first entry in a series. And... that is what Remake feels like. It's story doesn't feel like it ends properly, even when taking into account that it's the first in a series. It only feels worse when it's in a series whose entries will be coming out years apart.

I think the other reason people are worried about how Remake ends is that this might also be an indication of how Pt 2 will end. An hour's worth of unexplained new info and flashy fights leading up to a cliffhanger. And... doing that kind of cliffhanger once is okay... ending every single entry in a series that way except the last one... gets exhausting after a while. At worst it gives the audience the idea they shouldn't bother getting into the series until it's done.

 

[LNK]

But most entries in series that are supposed to be complete entries don't feel like their narrative arc is being cut off before it's even started.

Is that because those other series didn't intend to have multiple parts though? I'll admit, I am not a big gamer, so I have no idea. As for the remake, I can see why things would be "unfinished." They already know that the whole story isn't done yet.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

When I say "series" I mean series and serial media in general. The ending of the "Fellowship of the Ring" ties up a bunch of narrative conflicts in that book/movie even though it's the first book of a trilogy. The same thing goes for any number of books or movies or TV seasons, comics, etc.

Once you get past the first intro in most series, a creator usually knows the next entries will be part of a series, and great narrative arc. However, that doesn't mean they just cut the overall narrative into parts at random: the parts themselves have their own narrative arcs that conclude even as they work together to make the greater overall narrative.

It's the difference between leaving a cliffhanger at the end of a chapter vs leaving a cliffhanger at the end of the book in a series. Another example would be ending an episode on a cliffhanger vs ending a season on a cliffhanger. And... the cliffhanger Remake ends on feels more like the cliffhanger of a chapter or episode rather than the ending of a book/season in a series. However, the way the FFVIIRemake series is going... you'd think the ending would feel more... finished... than we got, esspecially in the context of another entry not coming for years.

 

[Kain424]

I dunno friend, to me it didn’t feel too different from hunting down a fanatic who thinks his mother is a 2000 year old alien, who then turns into a human-monster hybrid with wing shaped tentacles and throws the sun at you, all the while facing an alien who can wipe out entire populations using crazy mind powers and also taking down, among many ridiculous enemies including a house, several kaijus that were created by...the planet to protect itself?

You seemed to have interpreted the word "convoluted" as somehow synonymous with "ridiculous". And possibly even the word "ridiculous" with "fantasy".

Final Fantasy VII is a story that takes its time building its plot, themes, and resonance. The fact a character is possibly controlled or otherwise overtly influenced at a cellular level by a multi-millennial old alien being is something the storytellers take hours to build towards. As is the power level of said character and the illusory traits that would explain the appearance of solar expansion, tentacles, and so on. Much of the world's monsters have vague backstories, for sure. But enough room is left for interpretation that it works within its world.

The Remake, however, does not (or, at least, hasn't at this point) establish a genuine connection between the goings on of our protagonist and party with Sephiroth and whatnot. So this seems to be a valid criticism to me. Albeit, a pending one.

Point is: those things from the original game work within that game because there is a valid explanation that works within that world. If you were a new player who wanted to experience Final Fantasy VII for the first time, Remake's story is legitimately offputting and strange with very little explanation.

I personally believe they have a plan for all of this, but we do not have enough information to say for sure. At least from the developers. The game itself offers a treasure trove of clues, however. So much seems to be designed with intent. There is a lot of purpose there. Even a huge amount of meta-references contained in the dialog.

All that said, I get why there is criticism. From my point of view, I just want a level of stability. I want to know we're in good hands. The best hands. I see problems here. But I want to hope the best. So let's not dismiss complaints out of hand or whatever.

 

[KindOfBlue]

You seemed to have interpreted the word "convoluted" as somehow synonymous with "ridiculous". And possibly even the word "ridiculous" with "fantasy".

No, but those are all words that I would very much apply to the original FF7, the only difference being the remake is an incomplete story by design. I dunno, just seems pointless to consider certain story points not being clear as a strike against the game as it is by design meant to be episodic. If anything, you could make the same argument if you just copied the Midgar section of the OG and delivered that as it’s own installment in a series. It would only make sense to us because we already know where the series is headed. The playing field between new fans and OG fans is a lot more leveled now since neither of us know where the hell this thing is going exactly. If that was the goal, I’d say by all accounts they nailed what they were going for.

The Remake, however, does not (or, at least, hasn't at this point) establish a genuine connection between the goings on of our protagonist and party with Sephiroth and whatnot. So this seems to be a valid criticism to me. Albeit, a pending one.

Even considering what I wrote above, I don’t even consider this to be entirely the case. Had they waited until the very end to reveal Sephiroth instead of giving him multiple appearances throughout, new audiences would really have no idea who he is. At least there’s enough details to piece together he has some kind of history with Cloud. If anything, Jenova pretty much shows up out of nowhere with even less explanation than the Whispers within the context of the remake by itself. But we all know good old Jenova from the OG so we don’t mind.

At this point, I’ve watched several streams and playthroughs specifically from people who haven’t played the OG and for the most part, it seems they’re largely satisfied with what they got and are looking forward to what’s next. It’s mostly those of us who played the OG first, we’re the ones spending months of our time going on about theories, analyzing and critiquing the story, trying to figure out what’s next and measuring it up to the OG. Because we already know the OG is great, and that was our safety net. We assumed we’d like the remake just as much or even more because we know we like the OG. But now we’re back where we were before playing the OG: uncharted territory. And predictably so, people will be unhappy about it. People will be unhappy that the security they thought they had was pulled out from under them. I don’t blame anybody for feeling this, but it is what it is.

To make this clear, I don’t like the Whispers but I don’t dislike them, to me they’re just “a thing that happens.” But let’s say they didn’t exist. Don’t you think the Midgar section of the OG still makes little sense by itself anyways?

 

[looneymoon]

The way people strawman criticisms of remake is, in a way that I find, incredibly narrow.

The introduction of compilation elements have given the writers a tricky corner to write themselves out of, because the compilation is self contradictory and ill-planned. They decided to solve this problem with the easiest plot device to get themselves out of this corner they put themselves into, in a way that comes across as more wishy-washy, one-foot in one-foot out than just outright retconning stuff. Using time travel as a shorthand to completely wave away pesky things like contuity is completely lazy, and is the biggest tell that the writers are incapable of rising to the task that they've set for themselves. If I wasn't already pessimistic on the integrity of this writing team, that in itself hurts them more than it helps them. It's the biggest tell in which the remake undersells the integrity of the story telling of of what came before it.

But... this is a video game. FF7R succeeds in being a fun, immersive, tactical experience. FF7R succeeds in looking good. FF7R succeeds in being AAA experience with a AAA budget. These are the strengths that make it an overall enjoyable experience. That level of fun can mask/make up for the major weaknesses that comprise of a very small portion of the overall time investment. These proportionally small things for the playtime are critical to a closer disection of what the story tries to do, though. Writing it out as "just 5% lf the game" is a really disingenuous reading of what the game is (not to anyone here, just a common sentiment I've seen).

An aside: makes me think about how Albus Severus Potter became the most bullied literary character on the internet because of 1 page out of a 3000+ page book series. Yeah his name sounds dumb, but his namesake offers contradictory information to the journey/internal world of the series' main character....

However, even by the metrics of its praise, which tend to focus on the idea that, "its just a whole new thing entirely", it doesn't exactly pass the test. Mainly because it's not a whole new story. Remake itself emphasizes this. It's a remake, and another entry, to a longstanding franchise, where in-universe rules have been preset. Comparing its level of silliness to the original work of FF7 is incredibly disingenious to say the least. The layers of the remake narrative cannot by any means, be fully analyzed without the context of the OG+Compilation. The devs have done this by design. Yes it can be enjoyed on its own, but the game gatekeeps itself if experienced in a vacuum. There would be argument that FF7R works on its own, if it actually existed on its own. But it doesn't. If you're going to come at the game with a critical lens, there's no way around acknowledging that.

Aside: I understood Avengers: Infinity War just fine on its own. Can I really offer a full critical disection of it when I completely skipped more than half the important films that lead up to it?

Usually, this type of schlock is something I'm fine with. I like schlock, when it's appropriate, like in stuff like Resident Evil (probably my favourite game series overall). In the context of the original FF7, it was not really defined by its silly aspects, though that was part of its overall charm. The fact that writers don't seem to get this makes me respect them even less than I did already as a result of the Compilation + KH + etc.

It is just really irritating to be labeled as "purists" when pretty justified complaints are raised. Its not like critics are "missing the point." We get it. The "subtleties" aren't lost on us. We just think it's dumb, given the conext.

The main question that I ponder when looking at this: does remake really elevate the narrative of the OG FF7? or the Compilation for that matter? I appreciate the fact that it's introduces new fans to the story, and it's definitely a fun supplemental piece. That said, I have trouble answering the base question with any sort of honest positivity :/

 

[Makoeyes987]

The main question that I ponder when looking at this: does remake really elevate the narrative of the OG FF7? or the Compilation for that matter?

Yes, it most certainly does.

The Remake does not include the White Ranger and his band of evil Shinra Power Rangers.

So we're already on a good trajectory.

Like, you say that with the introduction of compilation elements, it's given them a tricky corner to write themselves out of, but that's exactly what they've done and are able to do going forward. They can easily pick out the elements that work from the Compilation and leave out the more narmy ones so that they then fit far more effectively in the VII Remake's setting, while establishing it's wider universe.

Deepground being the dark and twisted research facility that funnels the refuse of Shinra's human experiments is a really dark, and effective way to allude to the trauma and tragedy of Cloud's past while showcasing the dark secrets of Shinra. And you do that without having Natasha Fatale getting more gig work playing a character in the story.

They've established a wider network of AVALANCHE that actually warrants Shinra to take a band of 5 ecoterrorists serious enough to drop a city plate on them.... Without the wannabe-Hojo collecting materia to resurrect a summon that essentially.... burninates the countryside.

LOVELESS exists but you're not seeing that red-coated bastard reading each of it's lines every single time he appears on screen.

The Remake is tempering the jagged, rough and brittle edges of Compilation elements into more appropriate and useful plot elements that fit. They're in essence recycling these elements and thankfully not just throwing it all at the wall. It allows the original FFVII plot to not be...eclipsed by too much of it's extra series stuff.

As for time travel, we don't know if they're gonna use it to wave away stuff, especially now. I mean, they sure didn't hand wave Tseng's bizarre as hell vampire aging, lol. Right now the time travel element is a mere fantasy gimmick, we just don't know of what sort. It's new but it's also not beyond the realm of Final Fantasy, particularly spirit energy-lifestream-gaia theory which is the foundation of FFVII and it's cousins. They could play around with this new openness to tease out brand new interactions and expansions on known characteristics of each main character while exploring new scenarios that are rooted in the OG and it's metaverse. Or it could be shit. This is an ambitious as hell project to manage. But lots of stories, especially FF stories, are not simply bad cause' of time-space shenanigans.

However, I under that the optimism in seeing the potential for all this, is inexorably linked to how much confidence and enjoyment one has derived from this team's J-RPG portfolio, so in essence... It's like betting on the long odds in a casino, that this all has a cohesive strategy and is not just being written as it goes along. That's why I think that Part 2 will be the true test of how this all works and it's true direction. Part 1 was merely the introduction, we'll see what they can do now that they've set this course for themselves. They're gonna reveal something of what they've got.

 

[looneymoon]

Yes, it most certainly does.

As for time travel, we don't know if they're gonna use it to wave away stuff, especially now. I mean, they sure didn't hand wave Tseng's bizarre as hell vampire aging, lol.

Just quoted this particular part because I think my point is, by nature of introducing it at all already cracks a lot of narrative integrity. If this were any other series/genre/medium, I am confident saying these elements as they are handled, would be laughable. But remake is fun, and the authors are already known for insanely dumb shit so... eh, next part probably will be too, whatever.

Your responses to my questions about remake elevating the narrative really only speak to right now. I'm thinking more long term. The foundations of remake are too shaky for me to honestly give a positive assessment on the long term. It's already looking rough. Its like seeing a sketch of a painting where the entire proportion/composition is... readable maybe, but unsalvageable in looking good. Hence, while I say it's fun supplemental material, but it's hardly elevating what really matters in the narrative.

and yeah imo remake may as well have white power ranger and Sephorita Repulsa commanding sexy versions of weapons attacking the party. 20 years, multiple sequels in an established universe, and only now a game-changing element such as time travel is introduced? If you're going to pretend that everything before mattered, then commit to that. Don't just use multiverse time travel as a way to be vague about how commited you are to to continuity of your own project. Come on.

I say this paradoxically - the fact the writing team has been so shit at time travel nonsense in the past maybe a sign that the time travel crap can only go up in quality going forward. Maybe. I'm obviously coming from a pretty cynical lens, but I'm also upfront about how little faith I have in the writers prowess as story tellers.

... My actual prediction though? Is that part 2 will be phenomenal as a game. The battle system will be perfected and the level design will improve astronomically because of modern hardware. I just don't think the story is going anywhere that isn't Kingdom Hearts style mess :/

I get this is an FF7 forum, and we are all starved for something to be positive about, but this just ain't it for me man.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I mean, the minute Genesis swoops in to kick Zack in the back of the head to offer Sephiroth an apple during the Nibelheim flashback, I'm eating the cover of the game.

I just have hope they know better. Like, they can just easily... Not do anything dumb here.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Is it possible to bully a fictional person?

 

[LNK]

I mean, the minute Genesis swoops in to kick Zack in the back of the head to offer Sephiroth an apple during the Nibelheim flashback, I'm eating the cover of the game.

I just have hope they know better. Like, they can just easily... Not do anything dumb here.

"Nothing shall forestall my return"

 

[KindOfBlue]

The way people strawman criticisms of remake is, in a way that I find, incredibly narrow.

Is it strawmanning when it applies to multiple common critiques of the game? If it doesn’t apply to your critique specifically then I’d imagine it wasn’t meant to address you in particular but it would still certainly apply to many others

They decided to solve this problem with the easiest plot device to get themselves out of this corner they put themselves into, in a way that comes across as more wishy-washy, one-foot in one-foot out than just outright retconning stuff.

Had they simply retconned Zack’s death for example, I guarantee the backlash would be worse. At least this story treats Zack’s survival as an anomaly and will more than likely be resolved in the future. I’m saving my pitchforks and torches until they decide to keep him alive, otherwise, I just have to see where they’re going with this.

Writing it out as "just 5% lf the game" is a really disingenuous reading of what the game is (not to anyone here, just a common sentiment I've seen).

But it is...(I don’t like arbitrarily throwing out percentages but you get my point). I get what you mean, the nature of the ending story wise makes it stand out in a way that other detours in the story don’t. Other detours like chapter 4 still fit in the narrative of the OG, while chapter 18 deliberately goes outside of it. I get it. It’s just to me, until I see where exactly they go with this deviation, it’s still just another detour to me. I could never buy into the “it’s not a remake, it’s a (insert term here)” idea because they did remake the Midgar section of the OG’s story. Those events still happened.

The layers of the remake narrative cannot by any means, be fully analyzed without the context of the OG+Compilation.

I don’t think we can accurately determine this until the remake is complete. And even then, how much analysis from outside materials is necessary for where we are in this part of the story? WE know exactly what questions “need” to be asked, but would we even know to ask those questions in the first place if we didn’t already have the context of the OG and Compilation to inform those questions? Some stuff just isn’t meant to make sense until we get to the part of the story where it’s “supposed” to, and I don’t think most new players would even know to look further unless somebody tells them to or if they pay attention to online discussions from people like us.

I understood Avengers: Infinity War just fine on its own. Can I really offer a full critical disection of it when I completely skipped more than half the important films that lead up to it?

This depends entirely on what the connection to previous materials is to FF7R. Infinity War is a direct continuation of the narrative established by the previous movies, so yes, you would need those details. We do not currently know the precise connection between the canon of FF7 and FF7R yet no matter how many people insist it’s a “sequel and not a remake”. There’s that theory that the events of FF7 already took place in some separate timeline and that Aerith and Sephiroth are reexperiencing those events in FF7R but that’s left to be determined. I think a more accurate analogy would be playing the second part of FF7R without playing the first. I know in the age of Marvel movies where everything has to be connected, it’s normal to try to find explanations to everything and hyper analyze every single detail, but for me it’s far easier to just accept “we’ll get there when we get there.” Some details are different just because it’s simply a separate game, not because of some time travel/alternate timeline shenanigans.

it was not really defined by its silly aspects, though that was part of its overall charm. The fact that writers don't seem to get this makes me respect them even less

We just think it's dumb, given the conext.

Like I was alluding to before, I think we’re underestimating just how dumb the original game is too. We’re all nerds here, it’s okay to admit we’re deeply passionate about stupid stuff. I guess people draw the line at different points but if you ask me, I accepted this story was going to be “one of those” when I was attacked by a literal house in the OG. And it’s okay! That doesn’t make the game any less groundbreaking, shoot, I love that stupid stuff. And this is from somebody who doesn’t like Kingdom Hearts.

The main question that I ponder when looking at this: does remake really elevate the narrative of the OG FF7? or the Compilation for that matter?

And you’re right to question this, especially given Square Enix’s history. It’s the same exact question I have as well! Though, at this point all that can be said is “let’s see”. To me the remake already elevates the OG without the plot ghosts and let’s be honest, SE could have easily dropped the ball even on that. So I do have some faith since I’m so sold on what we got so far but for better or worse, I have to see what’s next.

Is it possible to bully a fictional person?

I would happily bully Genesis if it were possible

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Maybe he got bullied when he was a kid in Banora. That would explain a lot.

 

[Clement Rage]

The introduction of compilation elements have given the writers a tricky corner to write themselves out of, because the compilation is self contradictory and ill-planned.

Spoiler: remake

How so? The main contradictory point in the compilation is Nibelheim, which part 1 doesn't address. The Whispers do nothing to address compilation content, really.

Zack's OG death in CC is expanded, not contradicted (he doesn't survive or kill Cloud or something), and whatever the remake did with it is still up in the air.

The Turks' characterisations are fundamentally contradictory, that hasn't been addressed by anything the Whispers have done.

You don't need to have played the compilation to understand anything here. The existence of an AVALANCHE HQ is easy to accept without the context of BC, a player can understand 'shinra's hidden lab' without knowing what DG is.

If I'm understanding things correctly, the thrust of this objection is fears for the potential future, rather than what we have right now. To which all I can say is, well, we'll find out.

My favourite series ever is built on time travel and three of the five games ended on cliffhangers, so that doesn't really bother me. Yet.

If certain things happen (that I think are probably going to happen) in part 2, I won't be pleased, but I'll see what we get first.

 

[looneymoon]

I think I explained myself as clearly as I could, and if it's being simplified to "ahhh so you're just worried about what will happen," then so be it I guess. That wasn't the point and I really don't think what I had to say was addressed at all.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

I know that there are several of us on the Discord who will be breaking out wine and popcorn emotes if Genesis does show up. Not so much because we like the character (although a lot of us find him at least interesting), but because if SE has already changed so much of the OG story (and ended the game with the "unknown journey") they might as well go the the whole nine yards and change everything up that they can. And no idea gets a fandom-wide reaction of "No, they cannot do that in Remake!" like suggesting SE bring Genesis back into the story later down the line.

I do find it telling that a lot if us like that have gone through some variation of "the Remake isn't what I wanted" at some point... so by this time... well... SE might as well have fun making the game...

 

[LNK]

but because if SE has already changed so much of the OG story (and ended the game with the "unknown journey") they might as well go the the whole nine yards and change everything up that they can. And no idea gets a fandom-wide reaction of "No, they cannot do that in Remake!" like suggesting SE bring Genesis back into the story later down the line.

I'm the total opposite. Even though I like Genesis, since most people don't, I'd be fine with SE just using him during flashback scenes or something. If they didn't, oh well. At least that's how I feel about Part 2.

 

[Clement Rage]

The hatred for Genesis puzzles me.

Anyway, looney, I re-read.

So where you're at is that the Whispers are a lazy means to make sure the devs don't have to properly plot their mystery? If I understood you correctly, well, maybe. We'll see. I still think it's too soon to conclude that.

 

[Roundhouse]

Lately I've been wanting to see what will happen when Genesis awakens in the remake. He'll be the most powerful next to Sephiroth and Zack, so I need to see a scene where he is fighting people off like Neo in The Matrix. The return of a hero.

 

[ForceStealer]

I don't harbor any visceral hatred of Genesis. But I still see absolutely no need or reason for him to appear in the remake.

 

[Eerie]

Never played anything else than the OG, so I don't know who it is. But, if they want to include him, wouldn't that be easy in one flashback?

 

[Roundhouse]

He'll be in it for sure in terms of flashback stuff, as CC has made his involvement at Nibelheim canon (where he pushes Seph into evil mode). He could well show up in 'present time' too, though...

 

[ForceStealer]

He'll be in it for sure in terms of flashback stuff, as CC has made his involvement at Nibelheim canon (where he pushes Seph into evil mode). He could well show up in 'present time' too, though...

Except that doesn't matter. The entire point of how they added it, however ungracefully, was that Cloud would have no knowledge of it, and therefore would not be included in his renditions of the story.