SPOILERS Split from "Hopes for the remake (story/content)"

[Roundhouse]

This assumes that

Spoiler

we won't get Zack's own version of the event, though...

Although I'll admit that the 'for sure' part is me going over the top XD

 

[LNK]

I don't harbor any visceral hatred of Genesis. But I still see absolutely no need or reason for him to appear in the remake.

Not even to show some more back story of Sephiroth?

 

[Obsidian Fire]

They have said before they want to add more Compilation locations... the two new ones from CC are Modeoheim and Banora... both of which are really only linked to Genesis, Angeal and Zack. What AVALANCE could learn there that would have an effect on the story that doesn't involve Genesis and Angeal... I have no idea.

I can think of quite a few things they could learn at those places, particularly Banora, that could be used to explain to the player and characters who Genesis is...

 

[ForceStealer]

Ackowledgement of his existence and his appearance are not equivalent things.

 

[Kain424]

It should also be easy enough to accept Genesis of a completely different design or character variation. Different voice, different styles, etc. As they have changed so much already, this isn't hard to imagine.

 

[Rankles]

Never played anything else than the OG, so I don't know who it is. But, if they want to include him, wouldn't that be easy in one flashback?

Likewise.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

As for time travel, we don't know if they're gonna use it to wave away stuff, especially now. I mean, they sure didn't hand wave Tseng's bizarre as hell vampire aging, lol. Right now the time travel element is a mere fantasy gimmick, we just don't know of what sort. It's new but it's also not beyond the realm of Final Fantasy, particularly spirit energy-lifestream-gaia theory which is the foundation of FFVII and it's cousins

The issue for those taking issue isn't so much a notion that time travel doesn't or can't work within the existing metaphysics, but rather that it probably doesn't work within the existing themes. That's a concern I fully understand, as I also remain quite concerned about where that thread will take us.

As I see fiction -- and sci-fi and fantasy fiction in particular -- it's like a good mixed drink. Those don't ever actually require more than three ingredients. Now, you may go somewhere that puts four or five ingredients in a drink requiring less than that, but this is so they can charge you more for it.

Successfully constructed fiction generally works when it orbits just one or two "let's pretend" elements strongly woven throughout. Maybe three at a risky push. More than that, and you're almost definitely losing thematic direction to your narrative.

I can't look at "The Lord of the Rings" and conceive of any scenario where time travel would elevate that setting or the cohesion of the themes depicted there. Likewise "God of War" and KH. Of these three franchises, however, only LotR is without the introduction of time travel shenanigans, and thus it is the only one not irreparably harmed by the same.

If you were halfway through a sequel to "The Bourne Identity" and Bourne's adult son from the future suddenly showed up, you'd understandably be concerned that the narrative was going to lose you even if the nuts and bolts elements were played to internal consistency.

Plot devices outside real-world territory require one part internally consistent mechanics, one part cohesively blending those devices into themes.

It's damn near impossible to throw everything at the wall and still get it to work. The MCU may be the only case of successfully pulling this off in recent memory, and I still don't know how they did it. Growing up with the comics, I just took mutants and super soldiers and magic and aliens and vampires and time travel for granted, but each time I thought the movies were going to get one step too far afield with their plot devices for general audiences (e.g. Thor, the Guardians of the Galaxy, Dr. Strange, time travel in "Endgame"), they stuck the landing once again with thematic structures that carried sufficient resonance.

The developers of VIIR could stick the landing, and I really hope they will. I just don't blame anyone who feels more trepidation than confidence.

and yeah imo remake may as well have white power ranger and Sephorita Repulsa commanding sexy versions of weapons attacking the party. 20 years, multiple sequels in an established universe, and only now a game-changing element such as time travel is introduced? If you're going to pretend that everything before mattered, then commit to that. Don't just use multiverse time travel as a way to be vague about how commited you are to to continuity of your own project. Come on.

Of the many charges fair to level at the remake or its developers, I'm not sure this is one of them. By that, I mean Nomura was clear before the remake released that it was not meant to be OG FFVII Final Mix. He said it was a separate story from the original in a separate universe, and he hoped people would continue to play both.

Except that doesn't matter. The entire point of how they added it, however ungracefully, was that Cloud would have no knowledge of it, and therefore would not be included in his renditions of the story.

I don't think that was ever the point, though. Cloud and Tifa were fighting Genesis's copies while Genesis himself went inside the reactor -- which isn't particularly inconspicuous. Also, Cloud has been shown to have verbatim knowledge of what else went on inside.

 

[Clement Rage]

I think that's more a question of storytelling than time travel by itself, though. If you introduce any new element, be it laser eyes or a rich aunt in Hong Kong, it has to advance the story rather than break it.

It can't be a get out of jail free card. It's got to cause problems rather than resolve them, because otherwise the narrative tension suffers.

I haven't play KH, I don't know what happens there. I did find 'suddenly, time travel' in 13-2 difficult to swallow, but they just managed to sell it.

LOTR time travel would be very tricky, because if your time traveller knows where the ring is...that's a huge storytelling problem. In some settings it can work.

 

[Ite]

@The Twilight Mexican I want to applaud that post, it so eloquently sums up my feelings. The mixed drink analogy is perfect and I will be using that, thanks

The “FF7 is already ridiculous” counterargument is like saying “there’s already so much stuff in a Ceasar we might as well put chocolate milk in there too.”

 

[looneymoon]

It's damn near impossible to throw everything at the wall and still get it to work. The MCU may be the only case of successfully pulling this off in recent memory, and I still don't know how they did it. Growing up with the comics, I just took mutants and super soldiers and magic and aliens and vampires and time travel for granted, but each time I thought the movies were going to get one step too far afield with their plot devices for general audiences (e.g. Thor, the Guardians of the Galaxy, Dr. Strange, time travel in "Endgame"), they stuck the landing once again with thematic structures that carried sufficient resonance.

I mean the Marvel movies figured out a basic structure that worked for most of the films. A lot of the movies are essentially the same at their core, with different characters, gimmicks, and production teams. Obviously some diverge from the formula more than others, and some are greater successes than others, but for the most part they stick to something that works, retool it, all while being remarkably consistent to the branding.

Continually following the same basic structure allowed them to use self-contained stories to introduce ideas that would eventually be necessary for a large crossover to take place. Endgame/Infinity War was primed over the course of 10 years, with a very consistent release schedule, that became increasingly focused on creating a cinematic super-event. I don't have a particularly high opinion of Endgame/Infinity War, but there is definitely something to be said of the organization behind creating the conditions where it was able to succeed as well as it did.

This is something that works because of Disney. The Marvel movies are a product of an overarching body that is able to churn out tons of films as part of a massive assembly line. It has something to offer for virtually everyone. That works for what that franchise is, but I'm really opposed to other franchises attempting to mimic aspects reminiscent of Disneyfied branding, for reasons I'm sure I don't need to explain.

That was a bit of an aside. To bring this topic back to FF7R, the end gave the main cast an "Avengers Assemble" moment before Sephiroth did his "Thanos snap." Without saying anything about how that's handled - as a matter of personal taste, it's really off-putting and very much not in the spirit of FF7 imo :/

Of the many charges fair to level at the remake or its developers, I'm not sure this is one of them. By that, I mean Nomura was clear before the remake released that it was not meant to be OG FFVII Final Mix. He said it was a separate story from the original in a separate universe, and he hoped people would continue to play both.

But this isn't exactly true, is it? While Remake can be enjoyed on its own, it doesn't exist disseperate from FF7 and its Compilation materials. Remake itself constantly postures to them for insight/context as to what's going on. A comprehensive reading of it requires awareness of what came before. It makes little sense for them to have their cake and eat it too in this way.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

But this isn't exactly true, is it? While Remake can be enjoyed on its own, it doesn't exist disseperate from FF7 and its Compilation materials. Remake itself constantly postures to them for insight/context as to what's going on. A comprehensive reading of it requires awareness of what came before.

Well, yeah, as an IP it is wholly dependent on the original game and Compilation. As a matter of continuity, though -- even in the event our understanding that Seph is post-AC Seph pans out -- they're mostly separate, and that removes the snaggly issue of reconciling anything new with anything old.

It makes little sense for them to have their cake and eat it too in this way.

I kind of think it was the best scenario they could have gone with in a few ways. This way they can funnel their creative juices as they please, and those who don't want any changes (good, bad or in-between) inserting themselves into the old continuity don't have to square with that dissatisfaction.

 

[Makoeyes987]

As I see fiction -- and sci-fi and fantasy fiction in particular -- it's like a good mixed drink. Those don't ever actually require more than three ingredients. Now, you may go somewhere that puts four or five ingredients in a drink requiring less than that, but this is so they can charge you more for it.

Successfully constructed fiction generally works when it orbits just one or two "let's pretend" elements strongly woven throughout. Maybe three at a risky push. More than that, and you're almost definitely losing thematic direction to your narrative.

Yeah, I get what you mean there. All I can say is that at least I can see there's a recipe at work here, and while the ingredients look extremely bizarre and not something you'd ever want to mix together.. The final concoction I trust will be delicious. Sorta ugly-delicious, in a way.

Like pickles and ice cream. Or bacon and peanut butter.. Or cheddar topped apple pie, you get the idea.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Yeah, I get what you mean there. All I can say is that at least I can see there's a recipe at work here, and while the ingredients look extremely bizarre and not something you'd ever want to mix together.. The final concoction I trust will be delicious. Sorta ugly-delicious, in a way.

Like pickles and ice cream. Or bacon and peanut butter.. Or cheddar topped apple pie, you get the idea.

I don’t even consider the Whispers to be an element that’s too far from what we’re already familiar with honestly, the way they’re described reminds me of a more abstract version of the Weapons and the idea of altering reality makes me think of Jenova’s illusionary powers and the metaphysical nature of the Lifestream especially when described by Bugenhagen

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don’t even consider the Whispers to be an element that’s too far from what we’re already familiar with honestly, the way they’re described reminds me of a more abstract version of the Weapons and the idea of altering reality makes me think of Jenova’s illusionary powers and the metaphysical nature of the Lifestream especially when described by Bugenhagen

I can see where you're coming from. This is just far more concrete than the fluffy and seemingly hyperbolic "A crisis beyond human power or endless time." Or that vaguely defined (i.e. not at all) Time Guardian in the Ancients' temple.

This is like finding out that what Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny would normally laugh off as fairy tales also exists, and Santa and the rabbit are as equally baffled about what to do with that information as we are about what to do with them.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don’t even consider the Whispers to be an element that’s too far from what we’re already familiar with honestly, the way they’re described reminds me of a more abstract version of the Weapons and the idea of altering reality makes me think of Jenova’s illusionary powers and the metaphysical nature of the Lifestream especially when described by Bugenhagen

Oh, no. The Whispers are certainly the fucking pickles.

They're the briny, sour and pungent pickles paired with the sweet, smooth, delicious and decadent flavor of ice cream. It's certainly a weird combo of tastes but I've enjoyed weirder.

The writers are more than aware of how anomalous and strange the Whispers are. They advertised them as a the big, strange mystery of the Remake. Their scenes are not natural. They're meant to be weird. However, the recipe makes a crazy sort of sense if you follow and tie together the fantasy lore while looking beyond the disparate and randomness of the combination. Time travel is a weird as fuck element to suddenly throw into the fantasy recipe of FFVII near it's end, but not really, if you look at the family of fantasy concepts that FFVII, FFIX, FFX, and The Spirits Within inhabit together. There's precedent. There's an internally consistent mechanic at work that cohesively blends these fantasy plot devices into themes. And the theme here?

Memory and spirit energy are connected like a chain through space-time. Memories and experiences are inherited and can even be held or witnessed by individuals who don't even exist within the same time period. And that connection of memory and spirit energy, can even cause time to fold and become a singularity which in effect allows one to jump time and space. It allows a planet to carry the memories of the past, present and future.

Now, it's a big leap that isn't quite fully explained within the last two chapters of the Remake, but it's something that I expect Bugenhagen, Aerith, Ifalna or someone to eventually explain within the latter parts of Part 2 of the Remake to fully explain and give context to what happened in the last part of Part 1. The problem Part 1 did was they dumped this massive new piece of Lifestream lore suddenly and at the end of the game with no real foreshadowing or introduction and it's sorta just sitting here like this ornate dish of pickles and ice cream. It's a random as fuck dish to expect some viewers to eat, but there's a method to it's madness. I feel confident it'll thread together properly and make sense but it's natural for others to simply not see that connection in the random, epic boss rush of time singularity craziness.

 

[cold_spirit]

I don’t even consider the Whispers to be an element that’s too far from what we’re already familiar with honestly, the way they’re described reminds me of a more abstract version of the Weapons and the idea of altering reality makes me think of Jenova’s illusionary powers and the metaphysical nature of the Lifestream especially when described by Bugenhagen

if you look at the family of fantasy concepts that FFVII, FFIX, FFX, and The Spirits Within inhabit together. There's precedent. There's an internally consistent mechanic at work that cohesively blends these fantasy plot devices into themes. And the theme here?

Memory and spirit energy are connected like a chain through space-time. Memories and experiences are inherited and can even be held or witnessed by individuals who don't even exist within the same time period. And that connection of memory and spirit energy, can even cause time to fold and become a singularity which in effect allows one to jump time and space. It allows a planet to carry the memories of the past, present and future.

To continue with the food analogies, it's sentiments like these that, for me, make the Whispers feel like an ice cold can of cola with my burger and fries. They're too fizzy and cold to drink/accept all at once, but they cut through the fatty and self-indulgent Remake to give me something refreshing.

 

[looneymoon]

Like pickles and ice cream. Or bacon and peanut butter.. Or cheddar topped apple pie, you get the idea.

We you high by any chance when you came up with these strange recipes?

Pickles and ice cream sounds disgusting, but I can totally vouch for cheddar apple pie. A-tier desert. Bacon + peanut butter sounds delicious and I kinda wanna make it now

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The fact that you have to references games that aren't even in the same IP (FFVIII, FFXI (which wasn't even created by the Nojima/Kitase/Nomura team), FFX) to explain what the Whispers are is evidence to me that the Whispers don't naturally fit into FFVII like you'd like them too.

For all the the "Final Fantasy" games share a name, they are really each their own IPs and stories and their own world-building. You can't make a world-building aspect from one game fit into the world-building of another without a lot of caveats and just... plain ignoring world-building from the non-FFVII games to make it work. FFVIII doesn't have materia, the single most obvious evidence of spirit energy = memory in FFVII (side note: FFVIII uses the idea of "memory" really... unconvincingly overall). FFVII never had time travel anywhereuntil now. People can't visit the souls of the dead in FFVII the way they can visit the souls of the dead in the Farplane in FFX.

I'm not going to deny that there are similar world-building aspects over the course of the Nojima/Kitase/Nomura games, but if you're going to pay attention to the similarities, then just as much attention has to be paid to the differences. Otherwise... it feels a lot like you're cherry-picking for similarities to make sense of something we currently have no other in-universe information about. Also, it's a lot easeir to cherry-pick far more examples of how the games are different from each other than similar...

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Obsidian Fire
Hopefully not to get this thread off track, but it's relevant that Square itself has emphasized those shared metaphysics:

http://thelifestream.net/final-fant...anniversary-ultimania-sources-of-power-in-ff/

Also, you didn't really address a relationship between VII and IX, which are the most relevant to Mako's observation, and possibly the most overtly similar.

Not that I disagree with you that it's potentially problematic for the structuring of themes to have this plot device in the remake. It totally concerns me. I just think Mako's understanding is demonstrably right on the money as far as an in-universe explanation goes.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

@The Twilight Mexican
I'll be honest... FFIX (especially the ending) is... something I don't like thinking about a lot... It was messy and not in a good way. The ending of FFIX in terms of theme worked about as well as the scene in FFVIII where Squall and Co. all remember they were in the same orphanage as kids and blame their memory loss on GFs. Which is to say, it didn't work at all. It very much felt tacked on to me, like the writers ran out of time and didn't know what to make the final boss so they threw in some last-minute time travel to have Zidane and Co. fight the personification of death so the world can keep going. Probably to give Kudja a last minute redemption. It felt like a cop-out in a lot of ways. There's reasons I have never replayed FFIX.

The other fact is the FFIX had a completely different writing team than FF7, 8 and 10 did. So I kinda see it being as related to those three games as any other fantasy series is related to other fantasy series with similar ideas that were written by different authors (it would be like comparing the vast majority of Weastern Fantasy to Lord of the Rings). At least FF7, FF8 and F10 had the same main writer so arguing he's playing with the same ideas in all three of those games has a lot more evidence backing it up.

It just feels... I don't want to say cheap... but it feels like it shuts down discussion more that creates it to take the route of "this makes sense if you use other stories that don't happen in the same world as this one" to figure out how a world-building mechanic worked. Just because something shares the same name or function as something else in another story means it's playing the same role thematically.

Even going by that "shared metaphysics" article, there are differences. FFVIII isn't mentioned anywhere in that article once, and yet it's the game with a story that revolves the most around time-travel. The best we can do with FFVIII is guess at it having a Lifestream of some kind due to the Draw Points in the world. But spirit energy being memories? The game goes out of it's way to show how fallible memory is (which granted, doesn't work for a lot of people because of how it's handled).

Also different is what happens to spirit-energy in the "lifestream" across entries. In FFVII, all spirit energy eventually looses whatever made it an individual's spirit energy and gets reborn as new life. FFVIII, we never find out what happens to the souls of the dead there... FFIX... probably get reborn? FFX is the weirdest in a lot of ways, since there's a physical place living people can go to meet the souls of the dead... so the dead probably aren't getting absorbed by it? Heck, FFXIV even has a Lifestream, only the souls that go to it definetly get reborn with very little changes... to the point that people can get PSTD from previous incarnations if the event causing the PTSD was of significant proportions.

Any of those differences in how the Lifestream works makes a difference for Sephrioth's goals in both the OG and ACC. In the OG, Sephrioth wants to absorb the Lifestream into himself. In ACC, he's trying to avoid getting absorbed by the Lifestream because if that happens, he won't exist anymore. Absorbing the Liestream starts working differently if the Lifestream is a crystal instead of some kind of well of energy... or doesn't really have a preservation instinct. If the Lifestream isn't the kind that destorys someone's soul, then Sephrioth probably wouldn't even have to deal with the Lifestream killing him and could work on some other goal. And... the Lifestream is thematically the same thing more or less across all the entries with it: the place souls go when they die. It's just that not all Lifestreams work the same way and that does have an effect on character goals and the plot direction.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Also different is what happens to spirit-energy in the "lifestream" across entries. In FFVII, all spirit energy eventually looses whatever made it an individual's spirit energy and gets reborn as new life. FFVIII, we never find out what happens to the souls of the dead there... FFIX... probably get reborn? FFX is the weirdest in a lot of ways, since there's a physical place living people can go to meet the souls of the dead... so the dead probably aren't getting absorbed by it?

It is shown, though, that only the dead, and -- more specifically -- only those who are both dead and whose spirits have also made their way to the Farplane (or been sent) appear there.

Also, the notion that souls reincarnate is mentioned by some grieving parents visiting their child on the Farplane in X. They tell him he shouldn't come back because Spira is just a place of suffering.

And... the Lifestream is thematically the same thing more or less across all the entries with it: the place souls go when they die. It's just that not all Lifestreams work the same way ...

Is that odd, though? With the concept being adapted as it is from Sakaguchi's vision of the cosmos as this interconnected organism of smaller organisms (i.e. planets) that each then grow and sustain their own ever smaller organisms (until the death of a planet returns that world to the cosmos, taking with it the new experiences it cultivated), it would be more odd if there weren't variations.

On individual planets -- ours in the real world even -- organisms of common beginning develop in different ways. Some even fail to develop as beneficially as they should, and would, if depicted as a Lifestream, probably resemble the less cohesive, volatile one seen on Spira.

... and that does have an effect on character goals and the plot direction.

This much I agree with. I expect Sephiroth's now setting his goals a sight higher: oneness with the cosmos -- perhaps even the multiverse -- at large, with his will dominant.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The metaphysics which are shared by FFVII, IX and X are extremely established and they are the result of Hironobu Sakaguchi's overarching concept of memories and Spirit Energy which was thus carried on by Kitase, Toriyama, Nojima and Nomura. The Spirit Energy concept is arguably one of the most bedrock and common metaphysics of Final Fantasy. From crystals being the solidified embodiments of memories, abilities, magic, etc to the spirits of the dead joining a collective swell of consciousnesses that make up life of a planet.. These ideas all come from that explicit fantasy paradigm. So it's only natural for it to be a repeating fantasy theme in various FFs, even when they are all separate stories.

How well the FFVII Remake fully integrates this new level to the fantasy concept introduced in OG FFVII will depend entirely on their storytelling and scope for it as a whole, but the fact they're basing it on something, and not just flying by the seat of their pants offers some comfort to me. This is again, not something they're all sorta just constructing as they go along like the Kingdom Hearts team did with the concept of hearts, bodies, the multiple and confusing variations of the ethereal nature of "Kingdom Hearts" and then the strange character design end point where everyone is either an expy of Sora or Xehanort. That was a very strange and bizarre 'dead end' I don't see happening here. Nomura and the KH team sorta were trailblazing by night and just went wild with trying to figure out where to go with the story so it could exist and differentiate itself. FFVII-R isn't just feeling its way through the dark like that, nor does it serve as a creative therapy space for Nomura's unrealized solo RPG project from 2006.

Pickles and ice cream sounds disgusting, but I can totally vouch for cheddar apple pie. A-tier desert. Bacon + peanut butter sounds delicious and I kinda wanna make it now

Nope, I just have weird as fuck tastes.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

How well the FFVII Remake fully integrates this new level to the fantasy concept introduced in OG FFVII will depend entirely on their storytelling and scope for it as a whole, but the fact they're basing it on something, and not just flying by the seat of their pants offers some comfort to me.

I wish I could say that it does for me. The Fabula Nova Crystallis concepts were based on a baseline something before meandering into nonsense they couldn't even bother to explain with consistent rules or terminology -- before ultimately giving up and just deciding "Eh, you know what, let's do another Lifestream."

Also, ugh, I just realized this thread is outside the spoiler section and we've been letting them fuckers fly like lightning bugs. I've got a lot of edits to make.

 

[KindOfBlue]

This thread is making me hungry, dammit

How well the FFVII Remake fully integrates this new level to the fantasy concept introduced in OG FFVII will depend entirely on their storytelling and scope for it as a whole, but the fact they're basing it on something, and not just flying by the seat of their pants offers some comfort to me.

That’s pretty much why I’m not too worried about the future, in addition to my overall attitude that the OG still exists no matter how crazy the remake gets.

Narratively, I think this is where the weirdness of the Whispers is truly apparent with the way they deliberately interrupt the story, which will understandably turn some people off. The info dump at the end in particular is what I consider the best criticism of the Whispers but I do think people overestimate their dissonance in other areas.

Conceptually, If the Weapons from the OG are the planet’s way of defending itself from threats, I imagine when faced with a threat that transcends time like this version of Sephiroth appears to, the planet will need a response that matches that threat like the Whispers. So I’m still very much firmly in the “it’s weird, but not that weird” camp.

Thematically, they could serve as a way of illustrating the futility of fighting back against forces that cannot be controlled and showing that there are consequences to interfering with the natural order of life and death but that depends on where they go with this. Even with regards to everything I’ve posted in this thread, my most firm belief is still “we don’t know for sure until the story is over.” Worst case scenario, Aerith and Zack stay alive and everybody lives happily ever or something.

The fact that you have to references games that aren't even in the same IP (FFVIII, FFXI (which wasn't even created by the Nojima/Kitase/Nomura team), FFX) to explain what the Whispers are

I mean...I certainly don’t

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

The fact that you have to references games that aren't even in the same IP (FFVIII, FFXI (which wasn't even created by the Nojima/Kitase/Nomura team), FFX) to explain what the Whispers are is evidence to me that the Whispers don't naturally fit into FFVII like you'd like them too.

I mean...I certainly don’t

The Singularity and time travel does somewhat require dipping one's toes into at least FFIX to explain at the moment.