[Spoilers] Material Ultimania Plus discussion

Eerie

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Eh I’m not talking about the dream scene though, I’m saying that what he describes to Elmyra could be Jenova calling that he mistakes for Aerith because he saw her in his dream? Because he uses the same line to her as he does later on in that scene described in the Ultimania.
 
Sleepezi

Sleepezi

Lv. 1 Adventurer
AKA
Sleepezi
Eerie said:
Audrey posted that a few hours ago:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1421502280386244608
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So before this was ever said about Jenovas voice, I actually was going through and trying to isolate the 'flashback' sounds, and the only time these two sounds are used in the game are in the Elevator sequence described in this translation, and Jenova Dreamweaver's boss fight.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1422338184659181594
The sound is like a muffled sigh, and as suggested in the translated script I did attempt to reverse it, change the speed, all of the above. But that had zero effect on it.
I would imagine that the intent of the call is still there, its just not as on the nose as originally written.
been trying to catch up on the translations of yours Ultimasamune, its fantastic stuff. Especially the bit about Geo-stigma and Jenovas description from the 10th anniversary.
as for the Stagnant and Geostigma debate:
I wonder if there is a way to go through the JP dialogue for that scene at the end with hojo in DoC to reclarify the Jenova line about corruption of Omega? or has that already been done? either way I will poke around.
 
TurquoiseHammer

TurquoiseHammer

Pro Adventurer
Sleepezi said:
So before this was ever said about Jenovas voice, I actually was going through and trying to isolate the 'flashback' sounds, and the only time these two sounds are used in the game are in the Elevator sequence described in this translation, and Jenova Dreamweaver's boss fight.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1422338184659181594
The sound is like a muffled sigh, and as suggested in the translated script I did attempt to reverse it, change the speed, all of the above. But that had zero effect on it.
I would imagine that the intent of the call is still there, its just not as on the nose as originally written.
been trying to catch up on the translations of yours Ultimasamune, its fantastic stuff. Especially the bit about Geo-stigma and Jenovas description from the 10th anniversary.
as for the Stagnant and Geostigma debate:
I wonder if there is a way to go through the JP dialogue for that scene at the end with hojo in DoC to reclarify the Jenova line about corruption of Omega? or has that already been done? either way I will poke around.
Click to expand...
Thanks, Sleepezi! As for the 10th anniversary translations, those are all @Obsidian Fire 's handy work. The convo came up again when we saw that 淀み/stagnation line again in reference to Nero's power source. It seems like the writers are staying consistent with the stagnant lifestream vocabulary, or at least as it pertains to Chaos and the Protomateria. I'll also try to find those DoC lines if you or someone else doesn't get to it first.

That's very cool if they inserted a specific sound for Jenova's call. Almost like whale noises. The layers of detail never end!
 
ultima786

ultima786

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ultima
Sleepezi said:
So before this was ever said about Jenovas voice, I actually was going through and trying to isolate the 'flashback' sounds, and the only time these two sounds are used in the game are in the Elevator sequence described in this translation, and Jenova Dreamweaver's boss fight.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1422338184659181594
The sound is like a muffled sigh, and as suggested in the translated script I did attempt to reverse it, change the speed, all of the above. But that had zero effect on it.
I would imagine that the intent of the call is still there, its just not as on the nose as originally written.
been trying to catch up on the translations of yours Ultimasamune, its fantastic stuff. Especially the bit about Geo-stigma and Jenovas description from the 10th anniversary.
as for the Stagnant and Geostigma debate:
I wonder if there is a way to go through the JP dialogue for that scene at the end with hojo in DoC to reclarify the Jenova line about corruption of Omega? or has that already been done? either way I will poke around.
Click to expand...
I’m too distracted by that incredible surprise animation for cloud. We don’t appreciate the incredible animation enough
 
ph14basicbitch

ph14basicbitch

shinra merch buyer
AKA
koda
My memory of DoC is extremely bad, but I think the confusion regarding the DoC line is because the English localization translated mako (魔晄/makou) as both "lifestream" and "mako" in the conversation posted above. It should be "mako" on line 134. They didn't repeat the mistake on line 206, though. The term "minus lifestream" is written differently than "dirty mako".
 
TurquoiseHammer

TurquoiseHammer

Pro Adventurer
@Shademp as ever with the Resources.

The lines in question are:
宝条：汚れた《魔晄》の使用によって宿ったカオス
宝条：ならば、清浄なる流れを使えばオメガとなる

Localization:
Hojo: If the Chaos within you was born of a tainted Lifestream,
Hojo: then the almighty Omega would be born of a pure one.

As @ph14basicbitch said, the Japanese uses mako instead of Lifestream. Also, this may be getting too semantic but 汚れた《魔晄》 would technically be "mako that has become dirty/unclean/polluted" as opposed to "mako that has been made dirty." However, the phrase ジェノバに汚染されていない魔晄 "mako that has not been contaminated by Jenova" is used later in reference to the mako gathered to make Weiss into a vessel for Omega. Hojo implies that Nero entering the vessel will disrupt that pure mako, but it's not clear if he's also implying that Nero's impurity stems from Jenova or some other tainted entity like it, or if it's the incidental "stagnation"-type impurity described elsewhere.
 
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Obsidian Fire

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
We do know from the DoC Developer interview that Nero merging with Weiss *did* "taint" Omega. And that did warp Omega into something that isn't like the "actual" Omega. So it does seem to be the case that the "source" of the taint in the Lifestream doesn't matter.
You could take it [think] that the Omega that was created when Nero and Weiss become one is because of Hojo when Nero was being distracted. Omega is born from the pure Lifestream, so does that mean the Omega we see in DC is completely different form than the original Omega [that was described in Lucrecia’s reports]?

Chiba: It is a completely different object than the original Omega that was expected [to be born out of natural causes]. As a result of being a completely different object than its original form, you can also say that the way in which this artificial Omega was created [the reversal process] brings harm and devastation.

[This question is basically asking the difference between the real Omega and the artificial Omega that Hojo tried to replicate.]
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TurquoiseHammer

TurquoiseHammer

Pro Adventurer
Going back to Toriyama's comment on the Aerith resolution scene: the 意識/consciousness acting in the Lifestream and enabling Aerith to manifest is an ambiguous third party. Could be future Aerith, could be Ifalna, could even be Sephiroth if you want to go out on that limb.

I'd be interested to hear other posters' opinions.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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TresDias
Eerie said:
Eh I’m not talking about the dream scene though, I’m saying that what he describes to Elmyra could be Jenova calling that he mistakes for Aerith because he saw her in his dream? Because he uses the same line to her as he does later on in that scene described in the Ultimania.
Click to expand...
Right, and I replied about that. Lol
 
ultima786

ultima786

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AKA
ultima
Ultimasamune said:
Going back to Toriyama's comment on the Aerith resolution scene: a friend of mine who actually professionally translates (as opposed to my background as an editor for Japanese authors writing in English) is of the opinion that the 意識/consciousness acting in the Lifestream and enabling Aerith to manifest is an ambiguous third party. Could be future Aerith, could be Ifalna, could even be Sephiroth if you want to go out on that limb.

I'd be interested to hear other posters' opinions, since I know a lot of people here read, translate, or even natively understand Japanese better than I do.
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I don’t follow. Can you spelll out what the possible translations could be, ambiguity included?
 
O

OWA-2

Pro Adventurer
Ultimasamune said:
Going back to Toriyama's comment on the Aerith resolution scene: a friend of mine who actually professionally translates (as opposed to my background as an editor for Japanese authors writing in English) is of the opinion that the 意識/consciousness acting in the Lifestream and enabling Aerith to manifest is an ambiguous third party. Could be future Aerith, could be Ifalna, could even be Sephiroth if you want to go out on that limb.

I'd be interested to hear other posters' opinions, since I know a lot of people here read, translate, or even natively understand Japanese better than I do.
Click to expand...

Or Minerva.
 
Eerie

Eerie

Fire and Blood
The Twilight Mexican said:
It is, and that is Aerith. No reason for Jenova to be saying any of those things to Cloud anyway.

That's not to say he doesn't still feel himself being called there by Jenova/Sephiroth. He should be.
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The Twilight Mexican said:
Right, and I replied about that. Lol
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No reason to be saying all of these things to Cloud? I mean what things, that’s what threw me off. The main points for this theory are:

- In Japanese Cloud just tells Elmyra he feels called, which to me sounds like the Reunion.

- In her resolution, Aerith does not want him to come to save her. She doesn’t want to put him in danger.

- He uses the same sentence in Japanese, word for word, to describe "being called" to Elmyra and in the scene with Jenova.

- It’s also to note that before that (chronologically speaking) Yuffie encounters clones who are called too.

So I feel his line has a double meaning: at face value, especially in English, it’s telling you the Aerith resolution happened. But in fact he is wrong and it’s not Aerith but Jenova through the reunion that’s calling him.
 
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Obsidian Fire

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
It's certainly not impossible given the OG. Cloud has *both* his own reasons for going after Sephiroth *and* Reunion tugging at him. And he can't tell the two apart.

Which kinda brings up a conundrum... does that mean Cloud *shouldn't* gone after Sephiroth? And yet Sephiroth *had* to be stopped somehow and Cloud (and Tifa) have a good reason to be the ones going after him even *without* Reunion.

So yeah, Cloud could be "called" by two very different beings at the same time and be responding to both of them.
 
Maidenofwar

Maidenofwar

They/Them
I could be remembering completely wrong but in FFVIIR doesn't Tifa also feel Aerith calling? Maybe I'm remembering it wrong that Tifa said they all felt it?
 
Shademp

Shademp

420
Am I the only one who spontaneously has Kyosuke Himuro's "Calling" play in their head whenever anybody talks about FF7 characters feeling a calling? :wacky: I can't be the only one.
 
Eerie

Eerie

Fire and Blood
In English she does, but in French (just checked) she says "We know how you feel, but please..." (to Cloud's "It's as if destiny was calling me. I must go." which is yet a little different from the JP but does convey something else too than just Aerith's resolution) so yeah, she doesn't say so. It's honestly ridiculous at this point how the English can go against theory making, no fun.
 
Sleepezi

Sleepezi

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Sleepezi
I would like to also point out for the sake of discussion:

when they enter the lobby of Shinra HQ.
Barret presses cloud for the information as to where Aerith is being held.
Cloud assumes the research department
Then Cloud starts to stammer as he looks up
"Upper floors...maybe near the top...That's where you are."
I would just double check this in other languages. ;)
 
Eerie

Eerie

Fire and Blood
"I would say... up there. At the top." And I know he says the same in JP too. There's no "that's where you are" :wacky:

Tifa's asking where Aerith is in his opinion so IMHO in this scene, he draws from Jenova/Zack's knowledge to answer correctly. I don't really think there's more in this scene concerning Jenova and the Reunion. But maybe since the English missed the Elmyra landmark, they tried to add a bit there to counterbalance? I don't know how players are supposed to infer there's more there though.
 
The Twilight Mexican

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Eerie said:
No reason to be saying all of these things to Cloud? I mean what things, that’s what threw me off.
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Initially I thought you were suggesting that the whole dream was Jenova pretending to be Aerith, so I said that there's no reason for Jenova to be saying those things. Then I also added that the dream really being Aerith doesn't mean that Cloud isn't unknowingly referring to Jenova when they speak with Elmyra the next morning -- we know he is being called, so it's only logical that he really does feel something.
 
Eerie

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Ahah no, we were indeed on the same page, I know that it was Aerith in the dream, there's 0 questioning about it, nor there is questioning about it happening. What I'm truly questioning is why he says he feels called later with Elmyra. People assumed it was Aerith, HE assumes it is Aerith (even if it's not said in other languages), but it's probably Jenova :wacky:
 
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