[Spoilers] Material Ultimania Plus discussion

[OWA-2]

Wait, I think I got it.
There are some rare people(Aerith and Sephiroth), who can send their memories to their past selves, through the Lifestream. So besides being the source of all life and memory, the Lifestream can also work as a time machine(for memories). Is that it?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Wait, I think I got it.
There are some rare people(Aerith and Sephiroth), who can send their memories to their past selves, through the Lifestream. So besides being the source of all life and memory, the Lifestream can also work as a time machine(for memories). Is that it?

.... That's an effective and succinct summation of it all. Yes.

I would also add that it's that relationship between existence, time and memories that creates the possibility of timeline splitting but.. Yeah.

That's a good way of putting it.

Although... I would say Sephiroth is an even more special case because he's not just a memory. That's a real, tangible Sephiroth from some unknown future, fucking up the present. At least, in Chapter 18.

 

[Eerie]

My problem with all of this, is that time/destiny only makes sense, when it's a universal concept, not a planetary one. Because time works the same way everywhere. So if you make it contained to a single planet(with it's entire history already written), what happens when something outside of it's time bubble disrupts the flow(like something crashing on the planet)? Then the already written history/timeline of the planet would change(since the crashing wasn't written in it's history)? And what if another rock crashes on the planet? And another one? And another? I mean, that's something pretty common. So the planet's destiny will keep changing everytime that happens?

It's very confusing and convoluted. That's why I think it would be MUCH better, if they connected the Whispers to the Universal Lifestream, instead of Gaia's.

The concept of destiny of a planet is literally the story I am writing lol. So when you write like this, you do create important rules to which your story abides - that is true for any fantasy/sci fi setting. And you do focus on the characters who have a greater importance and impact on that destiny - hence why Rufus is able to see the Whispers but not Rude and Reno.

And last, your characters work towards that destiny without being aware they do. It’s very tricky in Remake because of everything Aerith knows, but she doesn’t know everything and works with guesses too because she knows too much. It’s tricky with the whispers but apparently they are done for - at least for now. The team defeating them may also give them the impression that they are forging their own destiny - which of course is not true.

For Jenova, the flow of the Lifestream already knew it would happen, and knew it would be alright. The Planet created the Weapons in case the flow of destiny wasn’t kept, but it was. Everything can make sense within this idea but they are walking on eggs. In my story the characters have zero clue about the future but they are forging the planet’s destiny. I take that Remake works the same way.

 

[OWA-2]

.... That's an effective and succinct summation of it all. Yes.

I would also add that it's that relationship between existence, time and memories that creates the possibility of timeline splitting but.. Yeah.

That's a good way of putting it.

Although... I would say Sephiroth is an even more special case because he's not just a memory. That's a real, tangible Sephiroth from some unknown future, fucking up the present. At least, in Chapter 18.

So the planet doesn't control/create it's destiny, it's just aware of it, and does everything to keep it on course...

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

How, if said rocks were outside the planet's influence(outside it's time bubble)?

It's this "future memories" thing I'm stuck on, this idea that everything which is going to happen has in some sense already happened. The Lifestream is thus conceived as a kind of moebius strip ; it doesn't flow forwards (or backwards) in time, and those who are in it, e.g. Sephiroth and Aerith, can travel instantaneously to any place on this moebius strip at will. The rocks come inside the Planet's influence or time bubble the moment they hit it (or enter its atmosphere or whatever) - and since the Lifestream contains the 'future memory' of everything, the Planet always had a memory that the rocks had hit it and were going to hit it.

A thing which does not yet exist cannot be said to be real. (e.g., Babies who have not yet been conceived are not real babies, and men and women are not "selfish" for refusing to have them) A future which has not yet happened is not reality. An event which changes the course of subsequent events cannot, therefore "wink reality out of existence". That's only possible if in some sense the future reality that gets disrupted was already in existence.

Like, if I'm planning a holiday to Corfu, and then a global pandemic hits and I can't go, my Corfu holiday hasn't been removed from existence, because it never existed. Only the idea of it, the possibility of it, existed. The reality is - and perhaps was always destined to be - the global pandemic, and no retsina for me.

So we're back to a situation in which, on this planet, two (and maybe more) possible futures already actually exist in reality, and always did.

The Planet must surely know whether Sephiroth wins or loses this current battle, and indeed all the infinite multiples of battles that he will fight with Cloud forever and ever and ever....

PS I don't think the Lifestream can be the source of all memories, otherwise it would not be possible for living things such as human beings, trees etc... to increase the quantity of Lifestream by adding their memories to it when they die. The lived experiences of individual beings are the source of all memories, but the Lifestream is where those memories flow, like raindrops ending up in the sea....

 

[Shademp]

I certainly hope they won't go with the idea of the lifestream having always known everything that ever was and ever will be.

I'm going on the theory that the first time around, in an original timeline, the lifestream did not know the future. Then, perhaps near the end of the planet's life, Sephiroth broke time and the lifestream gets busy trying to conserve itself back to one timeline and one cohesive flow of energy. The lifestream uses Timeline Version 1.0 (which exists in the planet's memory because it did indeed happen) as its framework for what counts as "Destiny" and those are the blueprints followed by the Whispers.

In this scenario, the lifestream only gains "moebius strip" traits because it's sick and in panic mode and not because that's how it normally operates.


EDIT: While I don't think that real-life physics about time, multiverses, many-worlds and conservation of energy should be applied to the FF7 fiction in an effort to reconciliate the plot, I get a feeling that Licorice wants this part of their brain tickled so imma just link this here.

 

[Makoeyes987]

A thing which does not yet exist cannot be said to be real. (e.g., Babies who have not yet been conceived are not real babies, and men and women are not "selfish" for refusing to have them) A future which has not yet happened is not reality. An event which changes the course of subsequent events cannot, therefore "wink reality out of existence". That's only possible if in some sense the future reality that gets disrupted was already in existence.

And that's precisely what happened. The future that Sephiroth from Chapter 18 comes from, would naturally exist. Where else is he coming from?

He's trying to influence the past, to make it somehow different and to his liking. That "future" he comes from, which is "destiny" or rather, the OG sequence of events, does exist. It has to, otherwise he'd have nowhere to come from and the planet would have no frame of reference for its Whispers/Feelers.

But the past can be changed. The nature of said change happened with us getting a strange new world where Zack lives and other weird things.

 

[Cae Lumis]

Both can easily work in this case. The Lifestream, being a place where time does not matter and that Past/Present/and Future coincide with each other, holds countless possibilities. However, in the OG, this mechanic and aspect of the Lifestream didn't matter and from the player's perspective, we're witnessing time linearly. Its only in Remake with Sephiroth's shenanigans that this has now become important because from Sephiroth's perspective, it can arguably still be considered linear in his experience of time:

Birth ---> Becomes SOLDIER ----> Events of CC ----> Events of VII ----> Events of AC/ACC ----> Goes back to Events of VII

However, this causes a rewrite in the Planet's Memory, but because not everyone was effected by Sephiroth's changes to the past yet, the future becomes unstable, prompting the release of the Whispers to fix that. However, because of Sephiroth being who he is and with his will power, the Whispers are subverted and thus can't fight him directly and thus instead target everyone else that could now change Destiny's Course, and keep playing catch up as more changes develop across time.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I find that these concepts are made easier to analyze when you think about the notion of various timelines in a multiversal context.

From a perspective outside all the individual timelines (a multiversal line of time), it's easier to picture how time travel (whether physical or astral; whether across timelines or contained to one) and the like can work when the lens on it is isolated to its area of effect. For instance, time travel within a single universal timeline isn't going to necessarily affect the entire multiversal timeline.

 

[ultima786]

A lot of people are saying the whispers are dead or destroyed. That is clearly not true as the (or some) Whispers are under the clear control of Sephiroth at the very end and even become his wing and all that. Anyhow, the Harbinger is perhaps destroyed, but not all the Whispers.

 

[ForceStealer]

I mean they seem to all blow up after that. But if they're destroyed through time as the ending sort of implies that doesn't explain, well, how they were there the whole game. Or at least through the Yuffie DLC if the order of our playing the game constitutes it's own sort of timeline. But I wouldn't be surprised to see them again, so who knows. I sure hope not, though.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The Whispers are either destroyed are severely depleted in number. There has to be a consequence to them detonating like a disco ball of benevolent light energy over Midgar.

I think they may still be around but far fewer in number and influence. I'd bet my chocobo that they'd be floating around the Temple of the Ancients and Cosmo Canyon at the very least.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Mako, what I'm saying is that if a future already exists - "The future that Sephiroth from Chapter 18 comes from, would naturally exist. Where else is he coming from?" - then the past which led to that future it must also already exist. If the Lifestream already contains both (or more) futures, then it must already contain both pasts, both timelines. The second timeline cannot suddenly be called into existence by some event that violates the first timeline. Both already exist and have always existed. No event that occurs in one can remove the other from reality. Terrier Stamp already exists and has always existed.

In other words, if Sephiroth is coming from the future he desires, he doesn't need to go back and change the past on that timeline because that past leads directly to the future he's coming from. If it's not the future he desires, but somehow, his meddling leads to the emergence of a new parallel world, that doesn't really help him at all with his problem in the original world, though admittedly the Sephiroth in the new world now has a shot at getting what he wants, I guess.

If the destruction of the Whispers is eventually followed by the defeat of Sephiroth, which I guess is going to happen at the end of the multiple installment of the Remake, then the future from which he comes back to them no longer exists and never existed - so how can he come back to them?

I know I'm coming across as argumentative but I really just want to figure out how this is supposed to work - how the future is somehow fixed and known but also malleable.

Thanks for the video, Shad! I find the multiverse theory fascinating.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Mako, what I'm saying is that if a future already exists - "The future that Sephiroth from Chapter 18 comes from, would naturally exist. Where else is he coming from?" - then the past which led to that future it must also already exist. If the Lifestream already contains both (or more) futures, then it must already contain both pasts, both timelines. The second timeline cannot suddenly be called into existence by some event that violates the first timeline. Both already exist and have always existed. No event that occurs in one can remove the other from reality. Terrier Stamp already exists and has always existed.

In other words, if Sephiroth is coming from the future he desires, he doesn't need to go back and change the past on that timeline because that past leads directly to the future he's coming from. If it's not the future he desires, but somehow, his meddling leads to the emergence of a new parallel world, that doesn't really help him at all with his problem in the original world, though admittedly the Sephiroth in the new world now has a shot at getting what he wants, I guess.

The future Sephiroth wants to create, has yet to be achieved. He's trying to achieve it now. It's not something that's already happened. And considering he is working from outside the bounds of the course of the planet's desired future, he is basically free to tinker with the script to his desire. Considering he's doing the thing of affecting the planet outside of what its given course of existence/future is, his desire is an aberration. It's not meant to exist.

If the destruction of the Whispers is eventually followed by the defeat of Sephiroth, which I guess is going to happen at the end of the multiple installment of the Remake, then the future from which he comes back to them no longer exists and never existed - so how can he come back to them?

I know I'm coming across as argumentative but I really just want to figure out how this is supposed to work - how the future is somehow fixed and known but also malleable.

Well if Sephiroth is defeated in his time and kept from no longer being able to travel in time, then he'd presumably suffer a complete death.

 

[eleamaya]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1417278150535389189

 

[KindOfBlue]

I mean they seem to all blow up after that. But if they're destroyed through time as the ending sort of implies that doesn't explain, well, how they were there the whole game. Or at least through the Yuffie DLC if the order of our playing the game constitutes it's own sort of timeline. But I wouldn't be surprised to see them again, so who knows. I sure hope not, though.

The Yuffie DLC takes place narratively and chronologically before the defeat of the Whispers (as we can see from the beagle Stamp still being around), so they’d still be active by that point…if the Whispers do resurface, my money’s on them having some kind of connection to the Weapons or something

 

[Shademp]

Mako, what I'm saying is that if a future already exists - "The future that Sephiroth from Chapter 18 comes from, would naturally exist. Where else is he coming from?" - then the past which led to that future it must also already exist. If the Lifestream already contains both (or more) futures, then it must already contain both pasts, both timelines. The second timeline cannot suddenly be called into existence by some event that violates the first timeline.

To begin with I think we need to assume that FF7 time is now existing in two- or even three dimensions of time. This is required in order for fiction to have time travel at all. In this paradigm, time is more like a loaf of bread that can be cut into unique slices. Past, present and future all DO exist simultaneously in the FF7 world, at least for now. But because we have no way of studying a universe with two- or more time dimensions, it is not clear what visualizations and analogies are proper here. If one bread slice gets moldy, that might mean BOTH the bread slices in front of it and behind it start getting moldy as well. Some fiction does adopt the paradigm that an event in the future can affect the past because it operates under this three-dimensional view of time where normal causality is no longer the full story.

The FF7 stories are often defined by the fact that the lifestream has a limited amount of mass/energy. Understandably then it already feels contradictory to picture the lifestream in multiple dimensions of time. Without restrictions on how small our slices of the big Time Bread can be, the total mass of the 3D-time lifestream will be approaching infinity the more slices we cut. But that might just be a limit of our imagination. As indicated in the PBS Spacetime video, the Many-Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics doesn't require that energy gets created out of nothing for each universe/world split, it just means that the fundamental wave functions (or fundamental quantum field) are changing their amplitude and wavelength.

The Whispers are/were clearly entities that exist in two or more dimensions of time, as evidenced by the ending of FF7R where the dome of Whispers is present in two time locations at once: The present and the past. But in the Singularity the Whispers lose their advantage of existing in multiple dimensions of time and so presumably that's why destroying the Whispers there meant that every manifestation of the Whispers disappeared. We are probably going to see more lifestream entities that exist outside of normal time as FF7R progresses. Not just the Time Guardian from the Temple of the Ancients, but perhaps even also Minerva?

The planet can probably feel its Time Bread molding. Perhaps in the end there will only be one slice left to survive it all. The planet probably doesn't know how this will all end. Knowing that might require the planet/lifestream to view time in four dimensions or more.

 

[Eerie]

I also think it’s worth mentioning that for all the destiny mentioned, the characters are the ones building it. It’s also worth mentioning that they think they have won against destiny and think their destiny is in their own hands now.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

To begin with I think we need to assume that FF7 time is now existing in two- or even three dimensions of time. This is required in order for fiction to have time travel at all. In this paradigm, time is more like a loaf of bread that can be cut into unique slices. Past, present and future all DO exist simultaneously in the FF7 world, at least for now. But because we have no way of studying a universe with two- or more time dimensions, it is not clear what visualizations and analogies are proper here.

Yeah, unfortunately, I think we're still much too early in Remake's story to properly understand which time travel theory and mechanics this plot is subscribing to.

Another potentially helpful visualization occurs to me now, though, courtesy of the final episode in the season of "Loki" that just ended:

Spoiler: Big Loki spoilers

The timeline there is depicted as a large Lifestream-esque energy tendril looping its way around a castle in a void outside the flow of the timeline itself. When the person maintaining the timeline in this loop formation was killed, new tendrils began branching off randomly from the loop even while the loop itself continued.

I will be interested in seeing if that's the sort of direction they go with FFVIIR.

 

[ForceStealer]

The Yuffie DLC takes place narratively and chronologically before the defeat of the Whispers

But they were defeated across time, hence their destruction happening at Zack's last stand too

 

[a_apple 2.0]

At this point it really sounds like Cloud inherited Zacks memories, like there are so many quotes out there that seem to go in that direction, which is kinda confusing

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1417374653203423233

 

[Makoeyes987]

But they were defeated across time, hence their destruction happening at Zack's last stand too

Oh God.

Dude... You just made me realize something.

Yes, you're absolutely right about that point regarding the Whispers. However... Clearly that isn't the case because they still exist in Intermission.

Which means that the way time flows in FFVII is like a river current. It flows forward in one direction. When the Whispers go and intervene somewhere, they can intervene in that moment where the potential deviation presents itself. So, they "lock in" those corrections that took place before their destruction and ensure their work isn't undone. That's why they "observe."


Remember when the first Ultimania came out and people questioned that chart about all the changes the Whispers did, because there are parts where it stated they were "observing?" Why the hell would they need to "observe" if they exist across time and exist to protect destiny that shaped them?

Because time flows forward in the moment and they have to sniff out where the current shifts. That's why they're Feelers. They feel out disruptions in the timeline and fix them in that moment. The nature of time in FFVII is a way of preventing time looping where you time travel to undo time travel, to undo time travel, etc.

So, what does this mean? I think it means that whatever is influencing and changing the "destiny" of the Planet was doing so in real time from behind the scenes.

And the agent of that change, is Cloud. Cloud through no fault of his own is throwing off destiny and the Whispers have to clean it up... And I think it's because Sephiroth is manipulating him. But Aerith is also part of the reason now too, given her memories as well. I'm not sure what her reason for going against" destiny" is, maybe as a counter to Sephiroth?

But look carefully.

https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/gd75ep
If you notice, all the moments the Whispers have had to intervene, they all involve either Cloud or Aerith. And it's mostly Cloud.

Wedge's survival is thanks to Cloud and the others. They nearly succeeded in stopping the plate fall. They had to be stopped. Cloud's bad attitude got his contract ended early. Cloud was close to questioning his identity twice. Cloud nearly caused an accident that would have injured or killed his friends.

Aerith's situation is unique because she is anomalous due to her memories and knowledge but Cloud... He seems to be unconsciously deviating the most from his previous role. I think... Sephiroth is nudging him to thwart destiny and make the Whispers appear. I bet you Sephiroth was the one that nearly kept Cloud from encountering Aerith and that's why the Whispers had to harass Aerith to keep her in place to meet Cloud. And that accidentally caused Cloud to see them...

Oh God, that vision of Sephiroth after the plate fall. He wanted Cloud to succeed. That's why he said that... He wanted Cloud to be stronger to thwart destiny and beat the Whispers. And he got what he wanted....

 

[OWA-2]

But they were defeated across time, hence their destruction happening at Zack's last stand too

And that created a new, separated, timeline. It didn't change the already existing one.

We are probably going to see more lifestream entities that exist outside of normal time as FF7R progresses. Not just the Time Guardian from the Temple of the Ancients, but perhaps even also Minerva?

Oh yes, please! The Whispers, and all this time/destiny stuff, felt so separated from the rest of the FF7 lore that we already knew! So it would be great if they added this new lore to already existing characters/creatures from the OG and Compilation, to make everything feel more cohesive. I really REALLY hope you're right about this!

 

[ForceStealer]

I just hope the Time Guardian's hands still move in beat with the Temple of the Ancients theme

 

[Stiggie]

It's these convoluted talks about time travel mechanics that make me hate that they added time travel to FFVII, like I always say, there are no stories WITH time travel, only stories ABOUT Time travel


This will either be vague or convoluted, and I don't know what's worse.