[Spoilers] Material Ultimania Plus discussion

[Wol]

It's these convoluted talks about time travel mechanics that make me hate that they added time travel to FFVII, like I always say, there are no stories WITH time travel, only stories ABOUT Time travel


This will either be vague or convoluted, and I don't know what's worse.

And this is only Part 1 lol

 

[KindOfBlue]

But they were defeated across time, hence their destruction happening at Zack's last stand too

But the actual defeat had not happened yet in-universe, so we’re basically still seeing what Midgar looked like before the Whispers were defeated (as they still prevent Yuffie from entering Seventh Heaven) just as we did for most of the remake

 

[SilverArrow20XX]

The lifestream containing wisdom from different timelines reminds me of FFXV: Dawn of the Future a bit.
Where Noctis gains knowledge of all possible timelines, past and present, from the Crystal while in stasis.

 

[ForceStealer]

But the actual defeat had not happened yet in-universe, so we’re basically still seeing what Midgar looked like before the Whispers were defeated (as they still prevent Yuffie from entering Seventh Heaven) just as we did for most of the remake

The actual defeat had not happened yet in universe at the time of Zack's last stand either, yet here we are

 

[Wol]

The lifestream containing wisdom from different timelines reminds me of FFXV: Dawn of the Future a bit.
Where Noctis gains knowledge of all possible timelines, past and present, from the Crystal while in stasis.

I wonder if they'll play around with multiple endings (one canon, and the others made to appease the fandom by favoring certain pairings and characters surviving).

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Oh God, that vision of Sephiroth after the plate fall. He wanted Cloud to succeed. That's why he said that... He wanted Cloud to be stronger to thwart destiny and beat the Whispers. And he got what he wanted....

It always baffles me that people forget it was *Sephiroth* who opened the portal to Harbringer for Cloud and Co. Aerith changed it somehow for sure. But she would have never had the opportunity to change it if Sephiroth hadn't opened the portal in the first place. If Sephiroth hadn't opened the Portal to Harbringer, then Cloud and Co. would have just left Midgar like in the OG... with the Whispers still around.

It's Northern Crater all over again. Only instead of getting Cloud to give him the Black Materia, Sephiroth got Cloud to kill Harbringer... So whatever happens next... it's probably what Sephiroth *wanted* to happen. Nice Job Breaking It, Heroes...

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

We can't "build destiny with our own hands".

There is free will, in which we create our own future moment by moment through our actions and choices, and there is predestination, which is destiny, in which our future has already been decided for us from before we were born and probably from the moment of the Big Bang, and nothing we can do will alter its course. If we're following a destiny, then our actions only seem to be the result of our free will, but that's an illusion.

Destiny: "a predetermined course of events often held to be an irresistible power or agency felt that destiny would determine their future." Merriam Webster.

Taking about "destiny" as if it were synonymous with "the future" just muddies the waters. Anybody can create a future. We literally cannot "make our own destiny", because if we could, it wouldn't be destiny, it would be the future we have chosen and brought into being through the exercise of our own free will. We cannot escape our destiny (if, that is, destiny exists).

Destiny is determinism and determinism rules out alternative possibilities.

 

[Makoeyes987]

See, you're thinking logically and firmly rooted in reality.

You have to think more anime, @LicoriceAllsorts

 

[OWA-2]

It always baffles me that people forget it was *Sephiroth* who opened the portal to Harbringer for Cloud and Co. Aerith changed it somehow for sure. But she would have never had the opportunity to change it if Sephiroth hadn't opened the portal in the first place. If Sephiroth hadn't opened the Portal to Harbringer, then Cloud and Co. would have just left Midgar like in the OG... with the Whispers still around.

It's Northern Crater all over again. Only instead of getting Cloud to give him the Black Materia, Sephiroth got Cloud to kill Harbringer... So whatever happens next... it's probably what Sephiroth *wanted* to happen. Nice Job Breaking It, Heroes...

People forget that? How? I thought it was pretty obvious to everyone. And who? I mean, most people I have talked to, understood that Sephiroth used the party to get rid of the Whispers for him. It was pretty on the nose.

 

[KindOfBlue]

The actual defeat had not happened yet in universe at the time of Zack's last stand either, yet here we are

My point is narratively, the Yuffie DLC takes place before that change in the timeline

We can't "build destiny with our own hands".

There is free will, in which we create our own future moment by moment through our actions and choices, and there is predestination, which is destiny, in which our future has already been decided for us from before we were born and probably from the moment of the Big Bang, and nothing we can do will alter its course. If we're following a destiny, then our actions only seem to be the result of our free will, but that's an illusion.

Destiny: "a predetermined course of events often held to be an irresistible power or agency felt that destiny would determine their future." Merriam Webster.

Taking about "destiny" as if it were synonymous with "the future" just muddies the waters. Anybody can create a future. We literally cannot "make our own destiny", because if we could, it wouldn't be destiny, it would be the future we have chosen and brought into being through the exercise of our own free will. We cannot escape our destiny (if, that is, destiny exists).

Destiny is determinism and determinism rules out alternative possibilities.

What happens when free will exists, but there exists a person capable of observing the future? Wouldn’t that choice already be predetermined from that person’s perspective?

I wonder if they'll play around with multiple endings (one canon, and the others made to appease the fandom by favoring certain pairings and characters surviving).

I really wouldn’t like the idea of multiple endings especially based on stupid shipping (ugh lmao) but I guess I can get over it if they commit to having a true ending of sorts

 

[Makoeyes987]

On another note I feel like my mind is reeling at the realization of just what's behind these "changes" from the OG that the Whispers had to intercede in. Has anyone really gone into this? Because it's fascinating.

In the OG, when Cloud, Barret, Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge make it to Sector 8, that lines up pretty accurately with the Remake.

However in the OG FFVII, Cloud makes it to LOVELESS avenue with no delay whatsoever and runs into Aerith selling flowers in front of the theatre there.

In the Remake, Cloud fixates on the flames all around him and the Jenova cells trigger his trauma and he receives a flashback of Nibelheim and seeing Sephiroth in the flames. And then proceeds to see Sephiroth actually in front of him. Sephiroth menaces Cloud long enough for the overpass to fall and block the direct route to LOVELESS avenue and the train station.

Sephiroth then leads Cloud through a dark alley away from LOVELESS avenue. I don't think this was Sephiroth just whimsically taking the chance to tease and harass Cloud. He was trying to keep Cloud from meeting Aerith. That's when we see the Whispers having to harass and encircle Aerith to keep her in that spot so her encounter with Cloud would still occur. Sephiroth even tries to directly interject himself into that moment by telling Cloud he can't save anyone... Like, I'm not the only one seeing this, am I?

I really think Sephiroth was trying to push Cloud off the course of certain FFVII events to make things difficult for the Planet. But why? It says he wants to protect the Planet. He can't obviously be talking about protecting it from himself, so clearly there's something else threatening the Planet in the future that risks robbing him of his chance to conquer it.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1417278150535389189

That last part of Toriyama's response is interesting. As far as I know we've never had any evidence that Rufus resumed contact with AVALANCHE after he was found out by his father; but this seems to suggest he's once again in league with them. This, despite confirmation elsewhere in the Ultimania Plus that Remake's main AVALANCHE cell isn't the same group Fuhito led in Before Crisis. (Of course this all depends on the accuracy of these early translations.)

Edit: Mako, I'm with you on all that and have been in that camp for a while. It's interesting to think about though—if Cloud hadn't had his Nibelheim flashback / Sephiroth goose chase, wouldn't he still have had to take the long way around to get to LOVELESS Avenue? Retcons aside, the collapse of the overpass that cuts Cloud off from the Sector 8 train station is the first instance where the OG and Remake timelines diverge, isn't it? Or is this just because the geography of the city has been fleshed out so much more, and if Cloud had taken his detour at a normal pace, he would have reached Aerith at the same time he did in the OG?

Edit 2: I guess, thinking on it more, the overpass collapse is also a "retcon"/expansion in line with the OG sequence of events, because if Cloud had gone directly to the train station then he wouldn't have met Aerith at all.

 

[ForceStealer]

My point is narratively, the Yuffie DLC takes place before that change in the timeline

But so does Zack's last stand! So why should that have been affected by their destruction if the Yuffie DLC wasn't, which is set in between Zack's fight and the events of Chapter 18?
My point is, the destruction of the Whispers was implied to propagate in BOTH directions on the timeline, so they really wouldn't have been in the game at all. Or, if our own experience as players constitutes it's own unique timeline, they should have at least been absent during to the Yuffie DLC, since we played it after that happened.

Now, as OWA-2 said, what they're probably gonna say happened is that Zack's last stand we witness is on a different timeline. (Which, fine, although that doesn't really explain why the two timelines weren't, you know, lined up. Why would the destruction go back to that point on the other timeline?)

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Now, as OWA-2 said, what they're probably gonna say happened is that Zack's last stand we witness is on a different timeline. (Which, fine, although that doesn't really explain why the two timelines weren't, you know, lined up. Why would the destruction go back to that point on the other timeline?)

You see this sort of thing all the time in Marvel comics or sci-fi shows like "Sliders." Not every timeline is synced up to the same moment on the calendar -- they may be off by hours, days, years, etc. along what amounts to their parallel "present."

 

[Makoeyes987]

That last part of Toriyama's response is interesting. As far as I know we've never had any evidence that Rufus resumed contact with AVALANCHE after he was found out by his father; but this seems to suggest he's once again in league with them. This, despite confirmation elsewhere in the Ultimania Plus that Remake's main AVALANCHE cell isn't the same group Fuhito led in Before Crisis. (Of course this all depends on the accuracy of these early translations.)

Audrey already translated that part and her translation of Toriyama's commentary is a bit more clear and revealing.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415544883981426693

It's not really implying he's in league with AVALANCHE, more like he was expecting to have to negotiate with them potentially given the situation.

Edit: Mako, I'm with you on all that and have been in that camp for a while. It's interesting to think about though—if Cloud hadn't had his Nibelheim flashback / Sephiroth goose chase, wouldn't he still have had to take the long way around to get to LOVELESS Avenue? Retcons aside, the collapse of the overpass that cuts Cloud of from the train station is the first instance where the OG and Remake timelines diverge, isn't it?

I think Cloud would have been able to have passed under the overpass before it fell, or even if it did. He wouldn't have diverted to a completely opposite direction alley that took him the long way around and nearly miss Aerith in the process.

But so does Zack's last stand! So why should that have been affected by their destruction?
My point is, the destruction of the Whispers was implied to propagate in BOTH directions on the timeline, so they really wouldn't have been in the game at all. Or, if our own experience as players constitutes it's own unique timeline, they should have at least been absent during to the Yuffie DLC, since we played it after that happened.

Now, as OWA-2 said, what they're probably gonna say happened is that Zack's last stand we witness is on a different timeline. (Which, fine, although that doesn't really explain why the two timelines weren't, you know, lined up. Why would the destruction go back to that point on the other timeline?)

It's more than likely that either Sephiroth purposefully ripped the Singularity open to then influence and reach that far back into the last stand of Crisis Core, or something else happened that made that moment extremely important and subject to interference. It could have even been because of Aerith and her feelings connecting the Singularity to the one person she wanted to see again, Zack. But I'm leaning towards Sephiroth being the cause for it when he cut open the Whispers with his sword. But let's be real, either party could be the one's responsible.

I think that past of Crisis Core was the original timeline but the minute things changed, that split the timeline. It's like DBZ, when you change the past you split the timeline from that point and then the gods of destruction and angels Whispers get upset.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

Holy moly, those are radically different translations of what should be a short and simple piece of text!

I think Cloud would have been able to have passed under the overpass before it fell, or even if it did. He wouldn't have diverted to a completely opposite direction alley that took him the long way around and nearly miss Aerith in the process.

Getting by the collapsed overpass would have put him right at the train station, though, and he wouldn't have met Aerith. I think the second option is more likely—Cloud would have found a shorter detour that he wouldn't have had to traverse in a slow stupor.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It's like DBZ, when you change the past you split the timeline from that point and then the gods of destruction and angels Whispers get upset.

Except when they don't; so, all the times before "Dragon Ball Super."

 

[KindOfBlue]

But so does Zack's last stand! So why should that have been affected by their destruction if the Yuffie DLC wasn't, which is set in between Zack's fight and the events of Chapter 18?

The difference is that we’ve seen both versions of Zack’s last stand, pre-singularity AND post-singularity, whereas we have not seen what Midgar was like during the version of the remake’s events that occurred in the new timeline (as we only see the new version of Midgar after Cloud has left)…what matters here is what’s been shown to us, the audience, so perhaps the events of the Yuffie DLC could have been altered but if it’s not relevant to the story, there’s no reason to show it (though they did choose to show the beagle stamp, which represents the timeline BEFORE the change)

 

[Makoeyes987]

Okay, I'm fucking losing it. This change is fucked up. This detail eluded me until I looked at and compared these two scenes.

In the OG FFVII when Cloud falls into the Sector 5 Church, Cloud's "inner self" rouses Cloud back into consciousness. The reason I attribute this voice to Cloud's "inner self" is because it mentions "skinned knees." The disastrous fall from the bridge collapse on Mount Nibel he miraculous survives with just skimmed knees. The conscious Cloud who's in the grip of Jenova cells does not remember this and is confused by his inner voice mentioning this detail from his past.

The Ultimania Omega specifically attributes this to Cloud's inner self trying to reach out to him.

****Translations from the Story Playback segment of the book**** (004)
***Enigma of the voice*** (Page 68)
As Cloud is trying to place the bomb, a mysterious voice speaks to him. Later,
this same kind of mysterious voice resounds in Cloud's head in the scene where
he and a voice have a conversation, and it offers him reminders. These voices
are the original Cloud, as -- due to Hojo's Sephiroth Clones experiment --
Zack's personality merged with his, creating the present day Cloud, producing
a conflict of multiple personalities(-->P.11).

During the scene in the first mako reactor, what [the voice] says is it
[trying] to point [Cloud] toward the memory of Sephiroth five years ago in
Nibelheim's mako reactor, as the two places were similar. However, Cloud is
not able to listen to the words of the memory.

(Accompanying screenshot caption)
"Open your eyes!" [the voice] calls out, as it does when the scene at the
Temple of the Ancients comes and the words of Sephiroth make use of Cloud as a
puppet.

So in the OG Church of FFVII, Cloud's inner self is helping Cloud rouse himself back to consciousness.

This is completely opposite of what happens in Chapter 8 of the Remake.

Sephiroth has seemingly hijacked the role of Cloud's inner voice here. "Hey, buddy. Made it through with just a couple of scraped knees back then... Move something. Anything. Good. Slow... and steady... "

Cloud asks who the voice is, and this time.... It sinisterly responds with, "I am... Your everything." As Sephiroth appears behind Cloud, out of his view and perception. In Japanese, he says "I am... Your Master."

The implications of this are shocking, given what Sephiroth is capable of now. He can now hijack and mimic the voice of Cloud's inner self and lead Cloud even further astray. Was Cloud's desire to literally kill Reno an unconscious prompting from the Jenova cells in Cloud in hopes of again, "defying destiny?" I dunno, but this is another significant change that opens up.... Weird possibilities.

I really don't know what this means honestly. It seems clear Sephiroth wants to make Cloud deviate from destiny and it seems likely he's seeding things in his head to do this, however Aerith's role in this is strange. She's defying destiny too, but to what end? Maybe she's some sort of counterforce to Sephiroth but her going against the Whispers is strange since Sephiroth seemingly wants to as well.

 

[OWA-2]

One of the devs said that the main theme of the story is still "loss". So if we are seeing characters surviving, that's probably happening "in another world"(his words).

After reading that, different timelines are practically confirmed, to me.

 

[Cae Lumis]

I really don't know what this means honestly. It seems clear Sephiroth wants to make Cloud deviate from destiny and it seems likely he's seeding things in his head to do this, however Aerith's role in this is strange. She's defying destiny too, but to what end? Maybe she's some sort of counterforce to Sephiroth but her going against the Whispers is strange since Sephiroth seemingly wants to as well.

The way I've been interpreting Aerith's actions up till now, since (if I recall correctly it was the Remake Ultimania interviews) Nomura (or Nojima) commented that Aerith may have been seeing the Whispers for awhile prior to meeting Cloud at Sector 8, that Aerith herself has a fair good idea of what happened in the Original Game and is essentially trying to nudge events enough to win a better ending than the Original Game's ending... since even in the OG its commented Aerith never really planned on dying at the Forgotten Capital and had her own plans for the future. After all, defying and decoupling the future from destiny is a two edged sword: Sephiroth may have a greater chance of finally achieving Godhood... but the Party now has a greater chance of winning a Golden Ending.

 

[KindOfBlue]

One of the devs said that the main theme of the story is still "loss". So if we are seeing characters surviving, that's probably happening "in another world"(his words).

After reading that, different timelines are practically confirmed, to me.

The “another world” bit unfortunately doesn’t tell me what I wanna know about whether or not we’ve overwritten the old world with the new one OR if there are two worlds existing parallel to one another

 

[Cae Lumis]

The “another world” bit unfortunately doesn’t tell me what I wanna know about whether or not we’ve overwritten the old world with the new one OR if there are two worlds existing parallel to one another

I believe the Statement Toriyama made about the theme of story being "about loss" makes much more sense when you realize Toriyama (along with NKN) have been playing up till now word games with Remake itself, one moment mentioning how much it will follow the Original Story, while making it very clear (and clearer with each Ultimania) that shenanigans are at play and are thus being "technically correct"... that "Main Theme of the Story" should be read as: "The main theme of the Original Final Fantasy VII was about Loss... if characters suddenly start surviving, then it would be a new story now, wouldn't it?"

And what is Remake...? A new story....

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don't think Toriyama's playing word games, I think he's being honest. He's been very forthright and revealing with details this time around. I think that is what they intend the story of theirs to tell.

However, I also think that it's very likely Aerith (hell, technically the whole party) is trying to achieve what they think would be a "better" ending and that's going to be explored. I don't necessarily know how possible that is or what that will look like, but that seemingly seems to be their hope. However, at the same time Aerith's future cognitions also seem accepting of her fate so Aerith's placement in this is opaque to say the least.

 

[Eerie]

That’s not what Toriyama said:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1415573942266339331

Can we not change the meaning of his words just because it fits our headcanon? He clearly is referring to another timeline there. He talks about this story which is Remake. They’ve spent over a year telling fans they’re following the OG but even now people doubt it.

At the end of Remake, I have no doubt that everything would be as it is at the end of the OG.