[Spoilers] Material Ultimania Plus discussion

[TurquoiseHammer]

Okay, thanks koda. My take is that.... the ambiguity is real lmao. Toriyama really could be saying either "If there is a future where all of these characters survive, that future might be a different world" or "If there were a future where all of these characters survived, the world would end up being different." I'm trying to think of how you could have this ambiguity in an English sentence. Maybe something like: "If there is a future where all of these characters survive, it might end up being a different world." I think this sentence more or less conveys the ambiguity present in the Japanese. But as a proponent of the alternate/revised timeline theory, my guess is that Toriyama intended the former. Just my humble 2 cents.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Maybe something like: "If there is a future where all of these characters survive, it might end up being a different world."

That's still 99% the same as Audrey's translation.

"If all characters are able to survive in the future, then perhaps that would be in a different world."

vs.

"If there is a future where all these characters survive, it might end up being a different world."

I'm not seeing a huge, massive difference between these two sentences. They both carry that ambiguity as is. Toriyama doesn't explicitly come out and say 100% "a different world means a different timeline." However, that horse has left the barn a year ago when we had our first understanding of what was going on in the first place with time travel being present in the Remake, there being multiple versions of people, and etc etc. You then combine that fact with the context of Toriyama saying the theme of the story is "loss" and not everyone can be saved.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Audrey's translation at all. It communicates the very same thing.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

Oh, I don't think there is either. I think Audrey's translation is fine in that it has about the same amount of ambiguity as Toriyama's reply. If you took out the second "in" from her translation, I think it would be exactly there.

 

[Roundhouse]

Due to the devs insisting, over and over again, that the story will remain the same, I'm starting to wonder if I was too hasty to think that they would make major changes. That being said, an alternate timeline could certainly be useful as a way of doing all kinds of wild stuff and still keeping things on track in the normal line. I wouldn't mind that...bring Genesis back in the alt line, have Zack doing his Laguna style adventures, temporarily merge the lines for maximum drama and then split them again.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

And I can not think of anything more boring and fan-ficy then we already have. *Who cares* if Zack is alive in some alternate timeline? He's alive thousands of fan-fictions already. We don't need an offical "Zack lives and *can't* effect the actual story of the OG" story. That's a waste of precious development resources.

Whatever happens to all the other characters who aren't dying has to effect the main story somehow, or there's no reason to show that they *could* have lived in some timeline that has nothing changing in it.

Not changing the story would be even *more* of a waste with Ever Crisis in the wings... where we *know* they are for sure following the Compilation story already. Why would they have two remakes of the exact same story, only one is in hi-def and the other is a gatcha phone game?

*Something* has to happen further on in the story of Remake to make the fact that Zack and all these other people that died in the OG and *are not* dead actually matters to the plot. It's got too much narrative attention for it to be some "meanwhile, back on Earth 28 where Batman and the Joker switched mortal aliments" thing that has no bearing on the actual Batman canon. Which is basicly what every "Zack is living in another world/timeline" theory amounts too. Sticking the *payoff* of killing Harbringer in some back closet where it can't effect the plot makes no narrative sense.

Also... anyone who says they want Zack to be like Laguna... you realize those parts made *no sense* to anyone in the actual game world right? It wasn't just the *player* who was seeing Laguna and Co., it was *Squall* in-universe doing things *as* Laguna in the past. And it seemingly stopped and started for both Squall and Laguna's group. None of them had any idea what was going on until way later. And Laguna's past is the very reason Squall was born in the first place. It's a time-travel paradox at it's finest.

 

[Roundhouse]

Honestly, the scenario you want is the one that sounds more interesting, Obs. I'm just not sure if they'll risk doing that...

 

[Cae Lumis]

Honestly, the scenario you want is the one that sounds more interesting, Obs. I'm just not sure if they'll risk doing that...

We're currently discussing this, with (hyperbolically-speaking) half of the fanbase deeming this all madness, right? We're basically invested and hooked now, some because we like the idea of Remake leading to a new ending, some to see those theories proven wrong, and others just for plain old answers. This is exactly where they want us! Otherwise they wouldn't have risked opening this pandora's box by introducing the Whispers in the first place and instead simply gave us a "paint by the numbers" straight forward retelling of the OG. Yes, this is a risk they're willing to take.

 

[Roundhouse]

It doesn't have to be one or the other of course -- they can do both! Alt line, and later have the lines merge, but do it after Cloud's identity arc to avoid disrupting the narrative core. Then we can get some super fun Zack interaction with the crew.

 

[KindOfBlue]

But we already know they are in different timelines... ?

Toriyama: "An important theme of this story is “Loss.” If all characters you see are able to survive in the future, then perhaps that would be in a different world."

As you can see from the discussion that followed, there’s simply no way to definitively answer my question just yet lol I get the “different worlds” bit, what I’m looking for is are WE in that different world, or is the different world existing parallel to ours?

No. In a world in which free will exists, they could only be looking at a vision of a possible future, not a future that's already happened or is bound to happen.

In real life, sure, but I’ve always wondered if that would still be true in a world where one could see THE future, not just a possible future (even as a kid I wondered this thanks to watching That’s So Raven on Disney Channel lol)

 

[OWA-2]

As you can see from the discussion that followed, there’s simply no way to definitively answer my question just yet lol I get the “different worlds” bit, what I’m looking for is are WE in that different world, or is the different world existing parallel to ours?

But if we(the party) are in the different world, then that becomes the main story, and the main theme won't be "loss" anymore. That goes completely against what Toriyama said.

 

[OWA-2]

Hey, remember how the Reunion in the OG was not just the reunion of Jenova's cells, but also the 'reunion' of Sephiroth with the Black Materia? What if they go even further now, and make it a 'reunion' of the timelines too?

 

[grooveorganic]

Hey, remember how the Reunion in the OG was not just the reunion of Jenova's cells, but also the 'reunion' of Sephiroth with the Black Materia? What if they go even further now, and make it a 'reunion' of the timelines too?

I like that idea honestly. A convergence of each piece of the compilation (which means a reunion of Zack with Cloud and Aerith hopefully) is already happening so you might be onto something.

And as Sephiroth said; "What lies ahead dose not yet exist. Our world will become a part of it one day."

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Hey, remember how the Reunion in the OG was not just the reunion of Jenova's cells, but also the 'reunion' of Sephiroth with the Black Materia? What if they go even further now, and make it a 'reunion' of the timelines too?

I like this idea and I hope it's where they're going. Somehow, in order for Sephiroth to be defeated and the Planet saved, the timelines need to be brought together, but this will involve sacrifice, and the hoped-for reunion with lost loved ones will not happen.
I would also like it if running multiple timelines was an ecological disaster for the planet, creating an unsustainable drain on its reserves of spirit energy/Lifestream.

 

[KindOfBlue]

But if we(the party) are in the different world, then that becomes the main story, and the main theme won't be "loss" anymore. That goes completely against what Toriyama said.

That’s the thing though, I don’t think it necessarily goes against that as it completely depends on how the timelines are handled and how the story is resolved

 

[ultima786]

The fact that Toriyama straight up said “if they are alive, then perhaps it’s in a different world…”

The very fact that he said it perhaps explicitly enough, is evidence for me that it’s not alternative timelines or perhaps even alternative worlds, or it’s not that simple. It’s more than meets the eye, because why would he reveal the secret twist and controversy of Remake in an Ultimania? Rather, I think he’s being cheeky and likely hinting that “it looks like an alternative world, but eventually you’ll see what we’re doing as story tellers, and eventually you’ll see that loss is still paramount. So It’ll look like an alternative world, and it kinda is, but you’ll see what it really is eventually…. “

My guess:
Our loved ones leave us, and they go to the promised land (Lifestream) where they truly live, but They relive their memories or aspirations, and they live out scenarios that they wish they could have had or something.

 

[OWA-2]

The fact that Toriyama straight up said “if they are alive, then perhaps it’s in a different world…”

The very fact that he said it perhaps explicitly enough, is evidence for me that it’s not alternative timelines or perhaps even alternative worlds, or it’s not that simple. It’s more than meets the eye, because why would he reveal the secret twist and controversy of Remake in an Ultimania? Rather, I think he’s being cheeky and likely hinting that “it looks like an alternative world, but eventually you’ll see what we’re doing as story tellers, and eventually you’ll see that loss is still paramount. So It’ll look like an alternative world, and it kinda is, but you’ll see what it really is eventually…. “

My guess:
Our loved ones leave us, and they go to the promised land (Lifestream) where they truly live, but They relive their memories or aspirations, and they live out scenarios that they wish they could have had or something.

Maybe he revealed there are more than one world/timeline, because it won't be a mistery in Part 2 anymore. They could even make we play as both Cloud and Zack, in their own adventures(like Laguna in FFVIII). Ultimanias have always existed to explain stuff. So why ignore what one of them is telling us now?

And the fact we see Whispers during Zack's 'last' stand, and the glowing particles falling down when Biggs wakes up, is proof that these aren't just memories in the Lifestream.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I do hope you come up with a third version, Tres! That will make this even more fun.

My take: he words real good.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

I have a lot of issues with the "Zack is in the Lifestream" theory, most of which have probably been brought up already. Above all I feel like it blasts a disrespectful hole in the ending of Crisis Core, which portrays Zack as very accepting of death. He unburdens his "dreams and pride" onto Cloud, and peacefully passes away feeling sure that he has "become a hero." Why, then, would he suddenly enter this post-mortem fugue state where he imagines he's won his battle with the Shinra troops and lived to see another day? That sounds more like the lingering will someone who hasn't completed their objective (success, repentance, revenge) would leave behind—and I just don't see it for Zack. Also, as OWA mentioned, why would the Whispers be in this Lifestream scene if it's all a conjuration of Zack's imagination and memories?

 

[ultima786]

I have a lot of issues with the "Zack is in the Lifestream" theory, most of which have probably been brought up already. Above all I feel like it blasts a disrespectful hole in the ending of Crisis Core, which portrays Zack as very accepting of death. He unburdens his "dreams and pride" onto Cloud, and peacefully passes away feeling sure that he has "become a hero." Why, then, would he suddenly enter this post-mortem fugue state where he imagines he's won his battle with the Shinra troops and lived to see another day? That sounds more like the lingering will someone who hasn't completed their objective (success, repentance, revenge) would leave behind—and I just don't see it for Zack. Also, as OWA mentioned, why would the Whispers be in this Lifestream scene if it's all a conjuration of Zack's imagination and memories?

Good post. I’m not saying he has to be holding on to something. Maybe he’s just a plot device to show us how life in the Lifestream works?

 

[Cae Lumis]

Every time we've seen death depicted in FFVII though (and I mean slowly passing away and thus are able to communicate, not surprise sudden deaths), it never comes off as a surprise or that the people who are dying don't exactly know they are about to join the Lifestream. Its often portrayed as unmistakable, even Zack is fully aware that he's joining the Lifestream as @Ultimasamune pointed out. Unless we're going back to the idea that Zack is gonna get sniped first thing in Part 2 (which given how Intergrade ends... is basically extremely unlikely)... there's no other way to interpret the Ultimania and Interviews: Zack WON. The fact that Remake's Ultimania stays suspiciously quiet about the reason why the Whispers were present at his Last Stand (though the recent Interviews does seem to hint that its because Zack is included on the list of people capable of changing fate, much like the Avalanche Trio) should be deemed suspect enough, as is the reference to the ending of the game being bluntly referred to as "a miracle". After all, that miracle was born from defeating the Whisper's Harbinger, wouldn't it make sense (given that the Whispers were trying to contain/ prevent changes to the timeline and thus ensure the Original Game occurs) that would result in a narrative pay off of things actually changing?

 

[Wol]

Every time we've seen death depicted in FFVII though (and I mean slowly passing away and thus are able to communicate, not surprise sudden deaths), it never comes of as a surprise or that the people who are dying don't exactly know they are about to join the Lifestream. Its often portrayed as unmistakable, even Zack is fully aware that he's joining the Lifestream as @Ultimasamune pointed out. Unless we're going back to the idea that Zack is gonna get sniped first thing in Part 2 (which given how Intergrade ends... is basically extremely unlikely)... there's no other way to interpret the Ultimania and Interviews: Zack WON. The fact that Remake's Ultimania stays suspiciously quiet about the reason why the Whispers were present at his Last Stand (though the recent Interviews does seem to hint that its because Zack is included on the list of people capable of changing fate, much like the Avalanche Trio) should be deemed suspect enough, as is the reference to the ending of the game being bluntly referred to as "a miracle". After all, that miracle was born from defeating the Whisper's Harbinger, wouldn't it make sense (given that the Whispers were trying to contain/ prevent changes to the timeline and thus ensure the Original Game occurs) that would result in a narrative pay off of things actually changing?

This is so XIII it hurts, characters changing fate through a miracle, making the impossible possible.

Spoilers all XIII characters were supposed to be dead/crystallized at the end but the Goddess had mercy Spoilers

Is there a Divine Entity here too? Is there a Divine Entity in VIIs lore actually?

 

[Cae Lumis]

This is so XIII it hurts, characters changing fate through a miracle, making the impossible possible.

Spoilers all XIII characters were supposed to be dead/crystallized at the end but the Goddess had mercy Spoilers

Is there a Divine Entity here too? Is there a Divine Entity in VIIs lore actually?

Technically yes, though with extra steps. Minerva is referred too as the Goddess of the Planet, but when you examine the Keywords for Crisis Core, she's more of a Summon for the Planet & Lifestream itself... a form that can interact with others.

Minerva (p. 296)

With her body clad in an impressive suit of golden armor, she is the existence that transcends all matter. Beneath her helmet, she is a beautiful woman with blond hair and green eyes. In Scene 10-06 Genesis fulfills his wish to meet her, and she appears in Mission No. 288 “The Reigning God.” She is interpreted to be the Goddess mentioned in LOVELESS, but in terms of substance she is similar to a summon, though it seems that the purpose behind her actions is to follow the intentions of the Lifestream.

So, short answer is "The Planet itself", the medium answer is "Minerva, who is really a sock-puppet for the Planet & the Lifestream".

 

[ultima786]

Technically yes, though with extra steps. Minerva is referred too as the Goddess of the Planet, but when you examine the Keywords for Crisis Core, she's more of a Summon for the Planet & Lifestream itself... a form that can interact with others.



So, short answer is "The Planet itself", the medium answer is "Minerva, who is really a sock-puppet for the Planet & the Lifestream".

Lol sock puppet for the Lifestream. Nice.

 

[Makoeyes987]

This is so XIII it hurts, characters changing fate through a miracle, making the impossible possible.

Spoilers all XIII characters were supposed to be dead/crystallized at the end but the Goddess had mercy Spoilers

Is there a Divine Entity here too? Is there a Divine Entity in VIIs lore actually?

To be fair... It didn't work out nearly as neatly as that.

In fact, it turned out pretty fucking horribly. One quote I loved from Caius was, "Listen to me. Each time you fulfill a wish of your heart, someone else's dream is shattered. You conjure miracles, but when you do, the seeds of tragedy are sown in other lives. Are you prepared to bear that burden?"

A dream come true doesn't come free. And I seriously don't expect the likes of these writers to play this out without consequences, especially in a story like FFVII. It will all come at a cost, and if it's anything like XIII, they'll show us that this isn't just going to wrap itself up with a nice, happy bow.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

This is so XIII it hurts, characters changing fate through a miracle, making the impossible possible.

Spoilers all XIII characters were supposed to be dead/crystallized at the end but the Goddess had mercy Spoilers

Is there a Divine Entity here too? Is there a Divine Entity in VIIs lore actually?

People seem to forget the Toriyama was the *Director* of the entire FFXIII Trilogy. And before that, he was an Event Planner for the OG and was one of the Main Scenario Writers for FFX. So FFVII being like FFXIII should come as no surprise to people. Or rather... it's FFXIII that is like FFVII... which is now like FFXIII...