Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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- Smooth Criminal
[Spoilers] Material Ultimania Plus discussion
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Wol
None Shall Remember Those Who Do Not Fight
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- Rosarian Shield
Cloud, Lightning... next mc will be called Rain.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
We probably covered this, but I forgot - by what mechanism does defeating the Whispers after Zack's death alter the event of his death? If this is some kind of temporal ripple effect, how far back in time does it go?
Should we assume the Whispers have been around in Midgar since before the start of the Remake, and that without their intervention, Zack would have lived? When the Whispers are destroyed, are all their interventions undone? That can't be the case, or Barret would have dropped dead and Cloud would now know the truth about himself because Hojo would have told him.
Should we assume the Whispers have been around in Midgar since before the start of the Remake, and that without their intervention, Zack would have lived? When the Whispers are destroyed, are all their interventions undone? That can't be the case, or Barret would have dropped dead and Cloud would now know the truth about himself because Hojo would have told him.
TurquoiseHammer
Pro Adventurer
@LicoriceAllsorts I think part of the logic of the singularity (based on how singularities are commonly used in science fiction and fantasy works) is that anything inside of its event horizon can't be affected by changes that occur outside of it. Because the singularity is a discrete point that is both removed from space and time and located at the nexus of all space and time, its inhabitants aren't influenced by the chronology of any timelines outside of it. Not that this is even necessary if we assume the party exits the singularity back into the same timeline we played through, which seems to be the case. But even if they exited into the "amended" Terrier timeline where Zack has survived, they should be able to coinhabit it with alternate versions of themselves.
I think that defeating the whispers inside the singularity, which is confirmed by in-game descriptions to be their native domain, removes them across all spacetime, undoing all the changes they've made (or prevented, as the case may be). Hard to say whether the whispers were intervening (or countering other peoples' interventions) previously in the timeline in places we aren't aware of yet, and now that those changes have been undone they're manifesting in small ways like a different Stamp design, and not-so-small ways like Zack surviving. Alternatively, one could argue that defeating the harbinger dealt such a blow to the fabric of the Lifestream / spacetime continuum that small changes rippled back through history, resulting in the alterations we see. Their presence at Zack's last stand before the party enters the singularity is quite a mystery. I think a possible explanation could be that during this moment of immense temporal upheaval, the whispers are scattering across time checking on pivotal events, ensuring they happen as they originally did. Either that or the whispers are the ones who cause Zack to live, perhaps as a last-ditch effort to thwart Sephiroth's long-term plan.
I think that defeating the whispers inside the singularity, which is confirmed by in-game descriptions to be their native domain, removes them across all spacetime, undoing all the changes they've made (or prevented, as the case may be). Hard to say whether the whispers were intervening (or countering other peoples' interventions) previously in the timeline in places we aren't aware of yet, and now that those changes have been undone they're manifesting in small ways like a different Stamp design, and not-so-small ways like Zack surviving. Alternatively, one could argue that defeating the harbinger dealt such a blow to the fabric of the Lifestream / spacetime continuum that small changes rippled back through history, resulting in the alterations we see. Their presence at Zack's last stand before the party enters the singularity is quite a mystery. I think a possible explanation could be that during this moment of immense temporal upheaval, the whispers are scattering across time checking on pivotal events, ensuring they happen as they originally did. Either that or the whispers are the ones who cause Zack to live, perhaps as a last-ditch effort to thwart Sephiroth's long-term plan.
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Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
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- The Engineer
The concept of "singularities" in fiction can't be divorced from the idea of the "black hole" (the closest thing we know of that is a physical singularity). Especially how while outside of the black hole no one knows what is going on inside it because information can't escape from a black hole while from inside the black hole, they can't see time passing outside of it. So most "singularities" in fiction have an impenetrable barrier where the people outside the "singularity" can't effect what is gong on inside it and vice versa. And then when the "singularity" ends, any changes inside it "snap back" into the world outside of the "singularity.
The trouble starts when the "time length" of how long the singularity "lasted" can be different from different perspectives... or when it comes to the "reach" of what the singularity effects when it ends. So you can have a singularity that lasts for a very short time outside of it, but inside the singularity, time goes on for a vyer long time (or vice versa). Or you can have a singularity that effects *all* of time all at once when the singularity ends.
There's a lot of different ways to play a "singularity". But it's usually some kind of temporary separate dimension that has events happening in it that effects the more permanent dimension when it ends in some way. It *usually* is not used to go to a "different" dimension. That's more like... a wormhole... So there's always this idea of a "main" dimension that gets changed by the singularity into something different than it used to be rather than some kind of time/dimension travel going on.
The trouble starts when the "time length" of how long the singularity "lasted" can be different from different perspectives... or when it comes to the "reach" of what the singularity effects when it ends. So you can have a singularity that lasts for a very short time outside of it, but inside the singularity, time goes on for a vyer long time (or vice versa). Or you can have a singularity that effects *all* of time all at once when the singularity ends.
There's a lot of different ways to play a "singularity". But it's usually some kind of temporary separate dimension that has events happening in it that effects the more permanent dimension when it ends in some way. It *usually* is not used to go to a "different" dimension. That's more like... a wormhole... So there's always this idea of a "main" dimension that gets changed by the singularity into something different than it used to be rather than some kind of time/dimension travel going on.
TurquoiseHammer
Pro Adventurer
Well stated. I think the "Singularity of Destiny" we see in Remake is sort of a fusion of the classical gravitational singularity and FFVII's unique concept of the Lifestream. It's a realm where all the potentialities of fate have collapsed into one another, such that any decision or action that occurs there is made on a knife's edge (except the knife has infinite sides... lol). Anyway, when I first finished Remake I thought there was a strong possibility that the party exited the singularity into the timeline where Zack is alive; but as time went on, and especially after the Yuffie DLC was announced, I realized this was very unlikely, and that there are probably two separate parallel timelines now.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
So it's kind of magical?
TurquoiseHammer
Pro Adventurer
I think it's magical to the same extent that other elements of the story, like the Lifestream, materia, Jenova, etc. are. But I think there are some fundamental rules that we can apply to how the singularity works based on how the concept is used and explained in other works of fantasy science fiction (Star Trek, Doctor Who, Interstellar, to name some popular ones, as well as Japanese works like Steins Gate, Space Dandy, probably a bunch of others I'm not aware of). Do I expect Remake to be absolutely drum-tight in how it handles theoretical physics? No—but I think it's safe to assume the writers will follow some sort of established spacetime logic that the audience can reasonably understand or even anticipate.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
If you're talking about FFVII's Singularity...
Everything in FFVII to do with the Lifestream *is* magical. Or rather... the Lifstream is made up of magic energy, where everything is born from and everything goes back to. "Magic" is just interacting with parts of the Lifestream in different ways while alive (and also dead). The Singularity was... obviously magical from the get go given stuff in the Lifestream was involved in making it.
"Magic" in most FF games (even earlier ones) is a really bad term for the "energy manipulation" that goes on in them TBH. Most FF Magic falls under the Magic A is Magic A trope, that is their magic rules are logically consistent with themselves. Some FF Magic systems go so far as to turn "magic" into Sufficiently Analyzed Magic where "Magic" might as well be a branch of "physicis" in those 'verses. It just becomes yet another tool for people to use get predictable results.
If you're talking about Singularities in fiction in general... In Sci-Fi works, they're some kind of unknown physics most of the time. This goes back to "black holes" IRL and how they were originally "discovered" by mathematicians playing around with the General Theory of Relativity and found some place that the math worked out for enough mass to be gathered in a single point for "space time" to warp around it so much that light could no longer escape. Essentially Mass becomes infinite while it's "dimensions" goes to Zero and you wind up with something that is mathematicly impossible... but still completely allowed by the General Theory of Relativity. Phisicists kinda hoped this was just a mathematical problem and didn't exist in the real world until... it turned out that the universe was actually cool with this idea and Black Holes are totally a thing that exists IRL. It's just that *no one* gets how they really work due to how they can't "see" them thanks to light not being able to escape... There's a whole bunch of physicicts who would *love* to get some better working physics models that could clear up the math issues of them. But so far... they've come up with nothing recently...
In fantasy, it's a lot more simple. Just get whatever magic works in a particular setting to make pocket dimentions and make one that is "curved in" on itself and cut off from the rest of the "main" dimention in some way. Usually they're bigger on the insdie than the outside due to Singluarities being in a single "point" in space. The Tardis is... a pretty good example of a "fantasy" singularity for all that it's in a (very soft) sci-fi setting.
The other thing to say about the Singularity is that it's a (philosophical) concept and trope in it's own right. You'll see it used most often to described Technological Singularities (often in speculative fictions), but at it's core, is a very simple idea. A "singularity" refers to a point in a system past the point of which, the normal rules of that system no longer apply. There's usually some sense of things happening the system that stress the system in some way that it ends up breaking. In the case of a physical "black hole", it's the physical laws of gravity and space-time that no longer apply and matter as a whole that ends up breaking down.
Or as the laconic on the Singularity trope page puts it.... "Accelerating change goes asymptotic, things get crazy."
Which is a really good description for what happens in FFVII Remake with the changes the Whispers are trying to stop. The changes start out small in scope and relitilvy few... and then keep compounding on each other in scope and effect until Cloud and Co. wind up at the "Singularity of Destiny"; a place where the normal "rules" of Destiny don't work and everything is crazy. There they kill "Destiny" as a concept thanks to the broken rules that don't apply to them in the Singularity.
Remake seems to be playing around both the physical/mystical type of Singularity and the philosophical concept of a Singularity all at the same time/place.
Everything in FFVII to do with the Lifestream *is* magical. Or rather... the Lifstream is made up of magic energy, where everything is born from and everything goes back to. "Magic" is just interacting with parts of the Lifestream in different ways while alive (and also dead). The Singularity was... obviously magical from the get go given stuff in the Lifestream was involved in making it.
"Magic" in most FF games (even earlier ones) is a really bad term for the "energy manipulation" that goes on in them TBH. Most FF Magic falls under the Magic A is Magic A trope, that is their magic rules are logically consistent with themselves. Some FF Magic systems go so far as to turn "magic" into Sufficiently Analyzed Magic where "Magic" might as well be a branch of "physicis" in those 'verses. It just becomes yet another tool for people to use get predictable results.
If you're talking about Singularities in fiction in general... In Sci-Fi works, they're some kind of unknown physics most of the time. This goes back to "black holes" IRL and how they were originally "discovered" by mathematicians playing around with the General Theory of Relativity and found some place that the math worked out for enough mass to be gathered in a single point for "space time" to warp around it so much that light could no longer escape. Essentially Mass becomes infinite while it's "dimensions" goes to Zero and you wind up with something that is mathematicly impossible... but still completely allowed by the General Theory of Relativity. Phisicists kinda hoped this was just a mathematical problem and didn't exist in the real world until... it turned out that the universe was actually cool with this idea and Black Holes are totally a thing that exists IRL. It's just that *no one* gets how they really work due to how they can't "see" them thanks to light not being able to escape... There's a whole bunch of physicicts who would *love* to get some better working physics models that could clear up the math issues of them. But so far... they've come up with nothing recently...
In fantasy, it's a lot more simple. Just get whatever magic works in a particular setting to make pocket dimentions and make one that is "curved in" on itself and cut off from the rest of the "main" dimention in some way. Usually they're bigger on the insdie than the outside due to Singluarities being in a single "point" in space. The Tardis is... a pretty good example of a "fantasy" singularity for all that it's in a (very soft) sci-fi setting.
The other thing to say about the Singularity is that it's a (philosophical) concept and trope in it's own right. You'll see it used most often to described Technological Singularities (often in speculative fictions), but at it's core, is a very simple idea. A "singularity" refers to a point in a system past the point of which, the normal rules of that system no longer apply. There's usually some sense of things happening the system that stress the system in some way that it ends up breaking. In the case of a physical "black hole", it's the physical laws of gravity and space-time that no longer apply and matter as a whole that ends up breaking down.
Or as the laconic on the Singularity trope page puts it.... "Accelerating change goes asymptotic, things get crazy."
Which is a really good description for what happens in FFVII Remake with the changes the Whispers are trying to stop. The changes start out small in scope and relitilvy few... and then keep compounding on each other in scope and effect until Cloud and Co. wind up at the "Singularity of Destiny"; a place where the normal "rules" of Destiny don't work and everything is crazy. There they kill "Destiny" as a concept thanks to the broken rules that don't apply to them in the Singularity.
Remake seems to be playing around both the physical/mystical type of Singularity and the philosophical concept of a Singularity all at the same time/place.
KindOfBlue
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Blue
Dare I say…the price of freedom is steep?
For as much as people were concerned about the remake going against the themes of the OG, let’s see how much that freedom really costs
Roundhouse
Pro Adventurer
'My friend, the fates are cruel...'
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
Not the devs themselves, but you have the JP VAs talking about the Singularity like it is. Given this wouldn't be the first time being "in" the Lifestream is treated as it's own dimention/place to be aware of (including in the OG), it certainly would fit.
ultima786
Pro Adventurer
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- ultima
Can you find the source for this?
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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- TresDias
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Doesn't he meant the visuals behind Sephiroth: the juxtaposition of the bright light directly above his head, which represent Meteor, and the blue-grey-green clouds swirling around it, which represent the Lifestream? Doesn't he mean this is a foreshadowing of the endgame confrontation between Meteor (Sephiroth) and Aerith (The Lifestream)?
I don't think "singularity" is a philosophical term per se, in the same way that terms such as "determinism" and "moral agent" and "necessary and sufficient" are. if it were, it would have its own entry in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosphy, which is a source I prefer over TV Tropes.
It's a scientific term from physics and technology.
These entries are relevant to these discussion and people may find them interesting:
Singularities and Black Holes
Causal Determinism
I like this quote from the latter, which seems relevant to Cloud's situation:
I don't think "singularity" is a philosophical term per se, in the same way that terms such as "determinism" and "moral agent" and "necessary and sufficient" are. if it were, it would have its own entry in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosphy, which is a source I prefer over TV Tropes.
It's a scientific term from physics and technology.
These entries are relevant to these discussion and people may find them interesting:
Singularities and Black Holes
Causal Determinism
I like this quote from the latter, which seems relevant to Cloud's situation:
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a_apple 2.0
Pro Adventurer
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- a_apple
one of the many Sephiroths in the game is a good boy now
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Ha, the new endgame isn't killing Sephiroth, it's redeeming him!!!!
a_apple 2.0
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- a_apple
I once did a analogy were I compared Sephiroth to Mr Burns in that one Simpsons episode were he tries to be good but becomes even more evil because of that. I think that's what's happening here. I need to find that post tho it was banger and had some good points
EDIT:
Dude I found my old post and hnnng I was so right, I called it
So regarding EoC Sephiroth and where the story is going from here:
I don't get the feeling that the Sephiroth we see stalking Cloud through out the remake tries to break him, I think it's the opposite. The vibe I get and what others already said is that this Sephiroth knows about a future event that might be threatening his own existence/the planets and because of that he needs Cloud as his ally since at this point Cloud has proven himself to be on pair with him hence why he treats him so different now, he doesn't want him broken or destroyed he wants Cloud to reach his full potential for the task ahead.
So everything will be all right? I mean Seph is now a good guy, right??
...Well seems like Sephiroth is convince that Cloud can only achieve becoming stronger through suffering and despair
And you already can see that theory demonstrated in practice in the last boss battle.
https://thelifestream.net/forums/th...spoilers-for-part-1.22470/page-36#post-901847
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Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
It's not that he's "good," he just doesn't want the Planet he's meant to inherit to end.
It's his goal to reach his Promised Land with it. Not let it die. This is all connected to him wanting Cloud to overcome this "destiny." And this makes perfect sense given what we hear from him in the Edge of Creation. It's all about how he wants to protect the Planet from it's demise in that future. For his own reasons, of course.
It's his goal to reach his Promised Land with it. Not let it die. This is all connected to him wanting Cloud to overcome this "destiny." And this makes perfect sense given what we hear from him in the Edge of Creation. It's all about how he wants to protect the Planet from it's demise in that future. For his own reasons, of course.
KindOfBlue
Pro Adventurer
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- Blue
“Aerith says the word "Freedom" in response to Zack's line”
CALLED IT
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Would be quite the twist if Aerith unconsciously caused the Singularity to reach back to Zack and cause that miracle to happen.
a_apple 2.0
Pro Adventurer
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- a_apple
At first I thought so too something in Aerith's memories caused that entire thing with Zack, but the way how Seph behaves in that scene makes me think he was feeding her those images. Like she activated his trap card. It could be both tho since Sephiroth and Aerith both seem to have access to memories and knowledge in the LIfestream, he might know what Zack and Aerith were to each other so he is showing her that memory to get her to follow him? But then again if the implication is that Aerith wants to change Zacks fate, would that even fit her character? She of all people should know that shit like that shouldn't be something tampered with
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KindOfBlue
Pro Adventurer
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- Blue
That look on Aerith’s face immediately after they showed the Zack flashback is one of the biggest things I hope to see a payoff for