The dynamics of Deepground and SOLDIER

[jazzflower92]

I don't remember where it was explicietly said that in case SOLDIER betrayed them is why they were kept around. And if so, if normal SOLDIER's loyalty is questioned, what exactly is ensuring the greater loyalty of Deepground? By all rights, those recruited into Deepground are treated a great deal worse then those recruited into SOLDIER.
Case in point Rosso: Her killing thousands of her own men was not something unusual with her, it was just her continuing on with her day as always. The Restrictors prove that they can easily kill her, their loyalty to Shinra being much greater then hers and Shinra had decided already to never ever in ever to use her no matter what, so why keep her around. How is her spending all her time in lethal training simulations thinning the Deepground ranks useful.

If they actually want Deepground to remain small and that's why they instruct their soldiers to kill each other as much as possible, they could've just NOT made a hundred times bigger then ACTUAL SOLDIER operation or at least stopped sending thousands down there at some point. On the subject, I thought it was hard to join SOLDIER? I don't like the retcon that it was never hard, the reason SOLDIER is so small is because 99% of their applicants are drugged and wake up in Deepground and Cloud just sucks THAT much for not even getting in at all.

Then there's Weiss. This is guy is not said to be crazy bloodthirsty like Rosso or even passively a hazard to be around like Nero. They're just afraid of him because he's too powerful. So they keep him drugged up, chained up to a Mako Reactor and inject him with a Virus that'll kill him if anything happens to the Restrictors and the main computer. Now given that they have done all this stuff to him, again I ask why don't you just kill him? The fact that you have done all this stuff to him clearly proves that you can. Despite somhow possessing all the Tsviets abilities save Nero, Weiss is calld the pure for being relatively untampered with. As proof of a successful expriment, he holds less value then Nero or Rosso.

Not that you know, they ever tried to recreate Nero, Rosso or Azuls ability in someone they haven't proceeded to treat like dicks or anything.

But here's the really weird part, in spite of not even trusting Weiss to be concious and merely confined to Deepground like Rosso, they do actual make use of him on rare occasion. They wake him up, unchain him, give him a mission, and send him on his way fully expecting him to come back despite having pretty much the worst quality of life of any Shinra employee ever, and that's saying something. Did the chips in their necks have such amazing wireless systems that they still receive inside even Nero's Darkness dimension?

Lastly I feel Deepground as a whole undermines the end of FFVII. Midgar was supposed to not be habitable anymore and Mako Reactor unusable. But here comes along an vast innummerable army that uses Mako to sustain themselves daily and have been living underneath Midgar for three years. And they brought a vast Armada of Mako-powered helicopters and spiderbots along with them.

I chalk it up to the Compilation's habit of lazily bad writing that requires a lot of retcon.

 

[ForceStealer]

The silly scale of Deepground was always a function them requiring enough mooks for you to fight.

Same with the Genesis army.

 

[Roger]

The silly scale of Deepground was always a function them requiring enough mooks for you to fight.

Same with the Genesis army.

Even a small army of Deepground soldiers or mechs has no place in a post-FFVII game because again, Mako is suppose to not work anymore, and living underneath Midgar during Meteorfall has serious issues (or at all really, if there was such a giant open space underneath the ground, why ****ing build a city on pillars there or see it has a giood place to put your grandcollection of Mako Reactor when almost everywhere else in the world, you can find openings into the Lifestream much, much closer to the surface.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The silly scale of Deepground was always a function them requiring enough mooks for you to fight.

Same with the Genesis army.

My head canon for both of those is that they really have 50 -75 % less people then they appear to have in game. Chalk it up to the difference in mediums between written works and video games.

The opposite is true for game like The Elder Scrolls where there should be more people/larger cities, but because game engines can only handle so many NPCs per game cell, only the minimum amout of people are showed. I usually mentally double the population/scale of those types of games.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Deepground's numbers would have to be significant for them to have just walked into Junon and taken 1,200 people.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

My head canon for both of those is that they really have 50 -75 % less people then they appear to have in game. Chalk it up to the difference in mediums between written works and video games.

The opposite is true for game like The Elder Scrolls where there should be more people/larger cities, but because game engines can only handle so many NPCs per game cell, only the minimum amout of people are showed. I usually mentally double the population/scale of those types of games.

Me too - in my headcanon the armies are smaller and the towns are bigger are there are more of them. There's also more than one ferry in the entire world.

 

[ForceStealer]

Deepground's numbers would have to be significant for them to have just walked into Junon and taken 1,200 people.

Wait I thought that was all Nero's doing.

 

[Roger]

If you can ignore Rosso saying she bathed in the blood of a thousand soldiers and explicietly mention this was nothing new for her, you can ignore the report on Junon.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Wait I thought that was all Nero's doing.

May have been. They openly attacked Kalm, Edge and Wutai, though.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^But I remember a NPC in DoC saying that the Four Mighty Gods were taking care of the Wutai attack. As in, that's why the WRO was only focusing on Edge and Kalm.

 

[Clement Rage]

I don't remember where it was explicietly said that in case SOLDIER betrayed them is why they were kept around. And if so, if normal SOLDIER's loyalty is questioned, what exactly is ensuring the greater loyalty of Deepground? By all rights, those recruited into Deepground are treated a great deal worse then those recruited into SOLDIER.
Case in point Rosso: Her killing thousands of her own men was not something unusual with her, it was just her continuing on with her day as always. The Restrictors prove that they can easily kill her, their loyalty to Shinra being much greater then hers and Shinra had decided already to never ever in ever to use her no matter what, so why keep her around. How is her spending all her time in lethal training simulations thinning the Deepground ranks useful.

If they actually want Deepground to remain small and that's why they instruct their soldiers to kill each other as much as possible, they could've just NOT made a hundred times bigger then ACTUAL SOLDIER operation or at least stopped sending thousands down there at some point. On the subject, I thought it was hard to join SOLDIER? I don't like the retcon that it was never hard, the reason SOLDIER is so small is because 99% of their applicants are drugged and wake up in Deepground and Cloud just sucks THAT much for not even getting in at all.

Then there's Weiss. This is guy is not said to be crazy bloodthirsty like Rosso or even passively a hazard to be around like Nero. They're just afraid of him because he's too powerful. So they keep him drugged up, chained up to a Mako Reactor and inject him with a Virus that'll kill him if anything happens to the Restrictors and the main computer. Now given that they have done all this stuff to him, again I ask why don't you just kill him? The fact that you have done all this stuff to him clearly proves that you can. Despite somhow possessing all the Tsviets abilities save Nero, Weiss is calld the pure for being relatively untampered with. As proof of a successful expriment, he holds less value then Nero or Rosso.

Not that you know, they ever tried to recreate Nero, Rosso or Azuls ability in someone they haven't proceeded to treat like dicks or anything.

But here's the really weird part, in spite of not even trusting Weiss to be concious and merely confined to Deepground like Rosso, they do actual make use of him on rare occasion. They wake him up, unchain him, give him a mission, and send him on his way fully expecting him to come back despite having pretty much the worst quality of life of any Shinra employee ever, and that's saying something. Did the chips in their necks have such amazing wireless systems that they still receive inside even Nero's Darkness dimension?

Lastly I feel Deepground as a whole undermines the end of FFVII. Midgar was supposed to not be habitable anymore and Mako Reactor unusable. But here comes along an vast innummerable army that uses Mako to sustain themselves daily and have been living underneath Midgar for three years. And they brought a vast Armada of Mako-powered helicopters and spiderbots along with them.

Nothing is ensuring the greater loyalty of Deepground, but their desire for worthy opponents (Azul and Rosso have dialogue to that effect) all but guarantees they'll go after SOLDIER given the chance.

I never got the impression that the ordinary DGs were all SOLDIER material, the presumably unenhanced WRO are able to handle them with only a little diffficulty, repelling the Kalm assault while Vincent and Reeve are sitting on crates. Edge was taken with Rosso and Nero both hard at work, and no WRO big names in opposition. The direct assault on WRO HQ is crushed, and the more successful second strike uses stealth rather than a head on attack. And once the WRO fully mobilises on Midgar, Deepground is crushed within hours.

Not that you know, they ever tried to recreate Nero, Rosso or Azuls ability in someone they haven't proceeded to treat like dicks or anything.

How do you know they didn't try?


About Weiss' chip, it doesn't necessarily work by the Restrictors pressing a button and sending a signal. It makes more sense to have the virus activate if Restrictors don't send the required signal every three days.

Midgar was supposed to not be habitable because of too much mako in the air being unhealthy. DGs have less stringent health and safety rules than the WRO or Shinra. As for the equipment, Shinra used to be a weapons manufacturer, there's bound to be loads of gear lying around. They're far less well armed than the regular Shinra army and SOLDIER.

Shinra's trademark is building cities on top of cities, they do it anywhere they get the chance...Midgar, Junon, maybe even the Gold Saucer. Is it such a surprise that Midgar is three layers instead of two?

Mako is suppose to not work anymore]

Hm? What makes you say that? Case of Barret says that 'hardly anyone is using Mako anymore', which implies that some people are.

 

[Roger]

Nothing is ensuring the greater loyalty of Deepground, but their desire for worthy opponents (Azul and Rosso have dialogue to that effect) all but guarantees they'll go after SOLDIER given the chance.

Yeah? So? You want them to defeat Shinra's enemies not SOLDIER in general, and their loyalties after they complete their missions once again left completely up in the air. You'd at best just replace a problem with an even bigger problem.

I never got the impression that the ordinary DGs were all SOLDIER material, the presumably unenhanced WRO are able to handle them with only a little diffficulty,

Well they are. They are able to put up with Mako enhancement and furthermore while Rosso says the WRO wouldn't last a day in Deepground the Deepground that make it to DoC have been fighting in lethal combat scenerios against Rosso, Azul and the like for three years.

repelling the Kalm assault while Vincent and Reeve are sitting on crates.

They weren't there to conquer Kalm, they were there to take prisoners and find Vincent Valentine. All the WRO did was sequre the town after Deepground decided to start leaving.

Edge was taken with Rosso and Nero both hard at work, and no WRO big names in opposition.

Again, Deepground SOLDIERS put up with Rosso and Nero trying to kill them on a daily basis, it's kind of the point.

The direct assault on WRO HQ is crushed,

By Vincent.

And once the WRO fully mobilises on Midgar, Deepground is crushed within hours.

Even WITH Cloud there, the normal Deepground after Azul, Nero and Rosso quit the battlefield laster much longer then anyone anticapted. Shelke was complaining that it was taking a little longer then expected in Chapter 8 just before Vincent entered the Shinra building. They don't make progress until chapter 13. After Vincent has scaled Shinra Headquarters, defeated Rosso, descended down to Deepground and defeated Azul, walked through the entirety of Deepground and defeated Nero, entered the Mako Reactor with Yuffie who had also easily been able to travel there in that time, and fought Hojo/Weiss. Only after he flies back to the surface and Vincent saves Shelke from Omega do the Mako Reactors get shut down. So fact: the normal Deepground had fought Cloud, Barret, Tifa and the WRO to a complete standstill for a good long time.

How do you know they didn't try?

Well if they kept on trying and made no more progress then before then I recint by former statement, Nero and Rosso are just as worthless to Shinra as Weiss is.

About Weiss' chip, it doesn't necessarily work by the Restrictors pressing a button and sending a signal. It makes more sense to have the virus activate if Restrictors don't send the required signal every three days.

As has been established, a man can kill his way through all of Shinra in one night with time to spare. And Weiss doesn't have anything to lose.

Midgar was supposed to not be habitable because of too much mako in the air being unhealthy. DGs have less stringent health and safety rules than the WRO or Shinra.

Just because they don't care, doesn't mean it shouldn't pose a problem.

As for the equipment, Shinra used to be a weapons manufacturer, there's bound to be loads of gear lying around. They're far less well armed than the regular Shinra army and SOLDIER.

First of all, Deepground is not their weapons locker, it is a new city build just for them. We dunno if Shinra was even based in the general area of where Midgar will one day be back in the days of being a weapons manufacturer. Even if it did, that would be BEFORE they discovered Mako energy. Considering everything, absolutely everything Deepground uses has Makolines on it, it obviously isn't from those days. And how exactly is Deepground less wellarmed then the regular Shinra army and SOLDIER. SOLDIER in general carries one plain longsword per person. Can't get more cheap and oldschool then that. Both SOLDIER and the regular Shinra army use fairly normal uniforms made of cloth, every Deepground SOLDIER wears an exquisitely engineered portable makotank, save to say the latter costs more. And I don't remember the regular Shinra army ever fielding quite as many spiderbots and helicopters at any time.

Granted, I don't disagree with you that BC doesn't make much sense either, while their regular army and SOLDIEr pales in comparison Deepground, that doesn't excuse the fact that apparently when a problem presents itself, they don't call upon their supernaturally engineered military, rather, they hire some hobo of the streets, put a Turks uniform on them and expect him to take care of it instead.

Shinra's trademark is building cities on top of cities, they do it anywhere they get the chance...Midgar, Junon, maybe even the Gold Saucer. Is it such a surprise that Midgar is three layers instead of two?

First all, we KNOW Shinra build Deepground. And even if we did, my answer would be resounding yes. Shinra build cities on top of cities in no way explains why underneath the old cities there is a underground city that no one knows about. This city, I might add, has it's own Mako Reactor, the city "build above it" and by that I mean, built at surface level like everything else in the world, is a dump and doesn't have anything like that.

Hm? What makes you say that? Case of Barret says that 'hardly anyone is using Mako anymore', which implies that some people are.

I guess you read a different story then i did.

"Yeah, I know. I was in Midgar. But c'mon, what's wrong with spinnin' just one of them reactors now and then? Forget how scary it is." Forgive me, Biggs, Wedge, Jessie.
"Won't get another drop of Mako outta the ground there. The flow of the Lifestream's changed."
"You checked it out?"
"Red told me. If he says so, it must be true enough."
Barret was at a loss for words. Was the planet telling them not to use mako anymore?
"Now, if we were to throw together a mako reactor in some other place, that's a whole 'nother story. But first we gotta find that place, transport all the materials... No tellin' when we'd finish. Then there's the matter of how to transport those materials in the first place."
"That's no good at all!"
"Ayup, once those mako reserves run out, it's all over.

And again, Deepground is not the low-tech, barebones operation you make it out to be. Every single one of their thousands of men require a Makobath once a day to survive, this along with powering their citylights (this is all underground so they kinda need that stuff no matter how badass and free of safety rules they make themselves out to be) and Weiss' chip signal was still being sent every three days prior to a week before the start of DoC, so obviously their computers are still running too. This went on for three yeats and by the start of DoC, they could still power up all their Spiderbots and helicopters.

 

[T@ctic]

OMG. seriously? angeal and genesis both treated sephiroth as a friend. a dear friend. sphiroth is a left brained introvert (search that up if you like) and that type of personality doesnt like to be around a lot of people and has little to no friends. left brained intoverts also dont open their hearts to people a lot, and DEFINITELY not as much as extroverts (people like zach). that being said, if sephiroth had any friends AT ALL they would have to act like true ones. maybe some of you should look at crisis core and dirge of cerberus, in that order. in crisis core, that was the first time we actually saw sephiroth genuinely smile, and not only that, it was because he was with his friends. if angeal and genesis didnt act like any, im more than sure sephiroth would have taken a hint. (also shown in crisis core) it was repeatedly said that angeal and genesis were best friends, and when they met sephiroth (WHO HAD NO FRIENDS BEFORE THEN and DID NOT care) they were all "very close" as zach put it. genesis, in dirge of cerberus, was still trying to help his friends, angeal and sephiroth, so he was still caring for them (thus proving my point of genesis being insane and still helping his friends in crisis core). i have no idea why people are saying angeal and genesis "never really acted like friends towards sephiroth".

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It looked like more of a smug, "these pitiful deluded losers" smile to me.

 

[Shizuka]

OMG. seriously? angeal and genesis both treated sephiroth as a friend. a dear friend. sphiroth is a left brained introvert (search that up if you like) and that type of personality doesnt like to be around a lot of people and has little to no friends. left brained intoverts also dont open their hearts to people a lot, and DEFINITELY not as much as extroverts (people like zach). that being said, if sephiroth had any friends AT ALL they would have to act like true ones. maybe some of you should look at crisis core and dirge of cerberus, in that order. in crisis core, that was the first time we actually saw sephiroth genuinely smile, and not only that, it was because he was with his friends. if angeal and genesis didnt act like any, im more than sure sephiroth would have taken a hint. (also shown in crisis core) it was repeatedly said that angeal and genesis were best friends, and when they met sephiroth (WHO HAD NO FRIENDS BEFORE THEN and DID NOT care) they were all "very close" as zach put it. genesis, in dirge of cerberus, was still trying to help his friends, angeal and sephiroth, so he was still caring for them (thus proving my point of genesis being insane and still helping his friends in crisis core). i have no idea why people are saying angeal and genesis "never really acted like friends towards sephiroth".

Genesis can hardly be classes as a friend when he was just up Sephiroth's ass because he was getting all the limelight and when Genesis got less attention than somebody else decided too have a major paddy and destroy a few lives on the way. He was the typical spoilt rich kid in Banora (too me) probably got all his own way and when he got into SOLDIER he didn't like not being the centre of attention.

As for Angeal if he way any kind of friend he would of told Sephiroth everything instead of running off with Genesis.

Finally Sephiroth again CC wasn't about him but Zack so even know we have little to understand of his upbringing is obvious emotional problems. But for whatever reason he doesn't seem to trust people easily

 

[jazzflower92]

I do see Angeal being more of a friend to Sephiroth than Genesis was.Genesis was a self centered jerk who was a glory hound who craved the spotlight and resented that Sephiroth was the center of attention.

Angeal actually was a person who cared about things like the ultimate good and honor.

 

[Shizuka]

I agree jazzflower but some of Angeal's actions weren't exactly honourable.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Angeal didn't handle things in a smart fashion, that's for sure. Certainly telling Sephiroth the truth would have been smarter than what he did do. It's really only a testament to Sephiroth's affection for Angeal that he refused to go after him. Maybe if Angeal had actually talked to him, Seph would have even sided with him and tried to help him save Genesis.

Whatever the case, while some of Angeal's later actions weren't so honorable, I think that underscores how broken he was when he found out the circumstances of his birth. He thought that alone had stripped him of honor.

Not that I've ever really understood why characters in fiction go fucking nuts when they found out that they had unique, experimental or even "monstrous" origins. Is it normal for people to feel that where they come from dictates who they are/are supposed to be to such an extent?

 

[Roger]

OMG. seriously? angeal and genesis both treated sephiroth as a friend. a dear friend.

Like when?

in crisis core, that was the first time we actually saw sephiroth genuinely smile, and not only that, it was because he was with his friends.

Hey, just because post-Nibelheim Sephiroth was evil doesn't mean his smiles weren't genuine, you got no reason to take away from him.

if angeal and genesis didnt act like any, im more than sure sephiroth would have taken a hint. (also shown in crisis core) it was repeatedly said that angeal and genesis were best friends, and when they met sephiroth (WHO HAD NO FRIENDS BEFORE THEN and DID NOT care) they were all "very close" as zach put it.

That was what Zack took from it, though Sephiroth who was actually recalling said "i wonder". And we don't KNOW that Sephiroth had no friends before them. I take it as implied but you can hardly give it up as evidence.

genesis, in dirge of cerberus, was still trying to help his friends, angeal and sephiroth, so he was still caring for them

In DoC Sephiroth and Angeal were dead as far as Genesis knew. Nor are we given any reason in DoC to suspect his actions, as far as he made them in DoC, were for their sakes.

(thus proving my point of genesis being insane and still helping his friends in crisis core).

No it does not. DoC takes place a good 10 years after the death of Angeal, lot's can happen to Genesis' state of mind in that time. Nothing in DoC proves anything concerning CC. At least what Genesis is concerned.

i have no idea why people are saying angeal and genesis "never really acted like friends towards sephiroth".

Cause literally all we see is them either avoiding each other or fighting each other. Okay Angeal and Sephiroth seemed friendly in the Sephiroth's rose-coloured flashback and when they meet up during Genesis' second attack on the Shinra building but that is literally it.

 

[Shizuka]

I understand that he saw himself as a monster. Heck look how Genesis and Sephiroth reacted when they thought they were monsters. I understand their reaction but just because of monstrous experiments happened to them doesn't give them the right to act like monsters. Genesis did terrible things as well as Sephiroth not to the same extent but murder is murder.

Zack, Cloud and Vincent were all experimented on and if course all handled it in a negative way (except Zack) but they sure as hell didn't go butchering people up.

I really begun to wonder what kind of psyche tests are given when entering SOLDIER if any at all.

As for Angeal I think things would of turned out a lot differently if he had spoken to Sephiroth. I think Sephiroth regarded Angeal more as a friend than Genesis in my opinion.

 

[Roger]

I really begun to wonder what kind of psyche tests are given when entering SOLDIER if any at all.

Well you have to have a strong will to qualify for SOLDIER. You can tell that Zack is the only one that went through all the proper channels though.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

It is rather odd how whacked out Genesis, Angeal and Seph went, given that one must have a strong sense of individuality in order to get through the mako treatments. You'd think people like that wouldn't care so much about where they come from, but they clearly do.

Hell, Genesis even seems to resent coming from Banora if you read all those e-mails. Angeal likes plants and bugs and such, apparently because they remind him of home. Genesis dislikes those things for the same reason.

 

[jazzflower92]

It is rather odd how whacked out Genesis, Angeal and Seph went, given that one must have a strong sense of individuality in order to get through the mako treatments. You'd think people like that wouldn't care so much about where they come from, but they clearly do.

Hell, Genesis even seems to resent coming from Banora if you read all those e-mails. Angeal likes plants and bugs and such, apparently because they remind him of home. Genesis dislikes those things for the same reason.

And it still makes me wonder why the narrative tried to lazily make Genesis sympathetic when everything in the game prior to the ending really goes to show how much he can be stuck up, a jerk, conceited, petty,and just outright unpleasant.

 

[Shizuka]

From the OG I always took why Sephiroth lost his mind so easily because as he said himself he always knew he was special. I took it he thought he was born that way a very gifted child that was born that way not scientifically engineered that way. I suppose that's the same with Angeal and Genesis. They must of been so proud to be the first two to get in the same ranks as Sephiroth himself.

As for loosing their senses that's what always struck me especially with Sephiroth. After being in the lifestream finding out everything (I know what happened to him was beyond horrible) but yet he seems to go more evil and in my opinion looses the title of "tragic hero" as he knows the entire truth and exactly what he's doing.

I mean Vincent didn't flip his lid and look what happened to him. (I'm fully aware that locking himself in a coffin for like thirty years want exactly normal but it's far better reaction than any of the first classes)

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

From the OG I always took why Sephiroth lost his mind so easily because as he said himself he always knew he was special. I took it he thought he was born that way a very gifted child that was born that way not scientifically engineered that way. I suppose that's the same with Angeal and Genesis. They must of been so proud to be the first two to get in the same ranks as Sephiroth himself.

I see your point. You're saying that it shot their pride to hell.

I guess I would expect that from Sephiroth and Genesis. Though in Genesis's case, finding out he was dying as an added result probably didn't help.

Still think his reaction was the dumbest of all. If he hadn't gone AWOL and turned against the very people who could help him, they would have probably spared no expense to find a cure for one of their celebrities.