The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[Vendel]

It doesn't
And even if it did, it wouldn't change a thing.

I would like you to retract your statement Q.

 

[Dashell]

I'd like you to come over here and make me

 

[Vendel]

I'd like you to come over here and make me

 

[Dashell]

Also, that reminds me, we should come up with a list of non optional Cloti scenes in FFVII. Like the lifestream scene, the promise scene... what are some others?

 

[Vendel]

Also, that reminds me, we should come up with a list of non optional Cloti scenes in FFVII. Like the lifestream scene, the promise scene... what are some others?

Aerith's death.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I don't post much here because I can't follow the arguments. But can I ask a question? What precisely is the point being debated? Is it
- Cloud never loved Aerith, only Tifa
or is it
- Cloud could have loved Aerith but she died before those feelings could come to anything in the poor confused guy's heart
or is it
- Cloud did love Aerith but after her death, and thanks in part to all the struggles they shared, he came to love Tifa
or is it
- Cloud loves only Aerith
?
My humble observation is that the game defaults to greater affection for Aerith. I never got the 'meaningful' scene under the Highwind the first time around, but I worked hard for Tifa (because I'm a Cloti) second time around and she got the date and the night of love and everything. So when the game itself is designed to go either way, how it is possible to argue definitively that Cloud's feelings are one thing or another?

Once you bring the compilation into the argument, the picture changes.

 

[Splintered]

Because of the page where it says there's two versions of the scene. They think this means it's telling us "this is optional"

What it's actually telling us is, "this is how you find this scene." since it doesn't even go into detail about the low affection version. At least that's how I see it. And again, no feelings were shared in the low affection version. Nojima said this when he said it was apathetic and ends short and said only the high affection version of the scene was meaningful.

I don't get that though, I mean if you're saying Nojima said those things and then saying they DID share feelings in the low affection version, they just didn't match or they were feelings of friendship.... wouldn't that still make it non apathetic and meaningful?

Start of CoT hints at whatever happens in whatever happens at the highwind is meaningful. Even if it doesn't say deliberately remark on the highwind scene, he indicates something fundamentally changed in their relationship. Something that wouldn't have happened if they didn't exchange something meaningful.

It could have happened in the lifestream, but that was more of a huge step for Cloud's character rather than their relationship. It's the highwind scene that would make him want to be with her.

Question though, where is this part of the highwind scene discussed?

 

[Dashell]

So when the game itself is designed to go either way, how it is possible to argue definitively that Cloud's feelings are one thing or another?

Once you bring the compilation into the argument, the picture changes.

The big thing is the compilation. It gave us a definite answer. If there's one thing the Compilation isn't clear on, it's NOT who Cloud loves.

Question though, where is this part of the highwind scene discussed?

What do you mean?

 

[Ryushikaze]

I know it's not a big deal to anyone here, but I think we should address what's on the page that says that if Tifa's affection for Cloud is high blah blah on the For The One That I Love... you know the one that the Cleriths say proves Cloti isn't canon. Just so they stop thinking we're hiding it and explain why it doesn't matter to us that the page says that.

How, exactly, are we hiding it, when I've responded to them directly explaining the logic underlying why 'there are two versions of this scene' is an argumentative non starter?

The "This Just in, FFVII Love Triangle is Official Over" article that doesn't mention that the Cloud and Tifa part links to a page that says that scene occurs only when Tifa's affection for Cloud is high. Because many Cleriths thinks this disproves that Cloti is canon, it'd probably be a good idea to address it or update the article or something. I already wrote something up on it that you're welcome to use but I'm betting this idea will get shot down anyway

And there are seven other instances besides this page that say that matching feelings occur, period.
So, either the matching feelings occur in both instances, or the high version is canon.
It is as simple as that.

Alright, first thing I gotta say is that yes, Ryu, you can stop screaming out cluster F-bombs. In fact, I'm sure the target of those F-bombs would appreciate it if you did.

There is no target.

Now, you make a somewhat good point here with regards to the fact that the imagery at the end of Dissidia is clearly indicative of the worlds that the characters are returning to rather than to a person, Good show. But, I seem to remember something related to this. It was quite a while ago, in the previous LTD thread, back when I still found this amusing for the most part. What was it?

Oh, right: Quex brought up the flowers, and she made reference to Aerith because, y'know, they're the same fucking flowers seen in her church. At the time, several persons seemed to take offense to the very idea, including yourself.

Because of two and half points of fact.
1. They are shared by Squall, of FF8, and in fact, appear while he is on screen, not Cloud.
2. They are not the same flowers. Same color, yes, but not same flowers. They might be the same flowers as at the end of AC, but not in Aerith's church, but then again, they are also like the flowers at the end of VIII.
3. None of the other exit 'zones' reference people. The closest would be the moon rather abstractly referencing Golbez rather than Cecil's return to the Blue Planet, but even then.

The prevalent concept put forth to explain the flowers, as I recall, was to tie them to Cloud having taken up Firion's dream for himself, with a different flower than Firion's wild rose. Any connection to Aerith at all was derided as batshit pinker insanity.

I do still hold that as the appropriate internal context of the flowers. Nor, I must point out, do I think that the flowers are utterly devoid of connection to Aerith, just that they do not represent her, same as I do not think the water represents Jecht, or the moon represents Golbez, or the woods represent Exdeath, all of whom have a definite thematic link to those things, and two of three of whom have decided and EXPRESSED IN DISSIDIA connections to the characters whose exits are displayed against these symbols.

Now, though, while you still (rightly imo) deny that the flowers are in any way Clerith proofz (which Quex never did, she said only that she could see why some people do) you are on a totally different tangent from the "they symbolize Cloud's acceptance of Firion's flower-symbolized dreams" that was at one time prevalent. You moved in the right direction, but considering the changes maybe you might consider not screaming at people in impotent rage and such.

There is nothing impotent about my rage, Ebby.

In closing, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck fuckity fuck fuck fuck. See, it doesn't do much to make an argument better, or even emphasize anything, if you overuse it.

It also doesn't make the argument any worse. That's the trick. An argument stands and falls on its own merits, regardless, and yes, in despite, of the flourishes and asinine crap attached to it.

In closing, I sing the 1812 Overture Acapella, with profanity.

Edit: Its come to my attention that Ryu may not have been one of the people involved in the situation I described above. If not, he has my apologies for ascribing behavior not his own onto him, Either way, dude, enough with the screaming at Quex (and anyone else) for not getting it. I stopped finding that kinda shit funny months ago, let alone the poor folks who've been dealing with it for years.

You'll find, as a rule, I do not scream at people. I scream at ideas. Hell, this and a few declared battle grounds are the few places I tend to let loose the dogs of fuck and rage, and Quex is unfortunately for herself, oftentimes the deliverer of these ideas from other people who do not have the wherewithal to enter this forum for themselves.

Also, that reminds me, we should come up with a list of non optional Cloti scenes in FFVII. Like the lifestream scene, the promise scene... what are some others?

I find the Discovery at the train station rather moving in that regards.
Of course, there's CoT, and AC/C too.

In a cold and critical way, Aerith's demise IS a point in favor of C/T, since removing a point in a triangle is ill conducive to having that point be the 'winning' side.

I don't post much here because I can't follow the arguments. But can I ask a question? What precisely is the point being debated? Is it
- Cloud never loved Aerith, only Tifa
or is it
- Cloud could have loved Aerith but she died before those feelings could come to anything in the poor confused guy's heart
or is it
- Cloud did love Aerith but after her death, and thanks in part to all the struggles they shared, he came to love Tifa
or is it
- Cloud loves only Aerith
?
My humble observation is that the game defaults to greater affection for Aerith. I never got the 'meaningful' scene under the Highwind the first time around, but I worked hard for Tifa (because I'm a Cloti) second time around and she got the date and the night of love and everything. So when the game itself is designed to go either way, how it is possible to argue definitively that Cloud's feelings are one thing or another?

The argument is 'Cloud could have been falling for Aerith, but given his mental state and the short period of them even knowing each other much less the quality of that time, it's not exactly likely, plus he never actually stopped being head over heels for Tifa, even muddled as he was' and as for how a game which presents choice can have a definitive argument,
1. There is such a thing as narrative causality, false leads, 'canon' outcomes, and the like, and
2. The compilation as a whole makes the argument rather moot.

Once you bring the compilation into the argument, the picture changes.

True, but I feel, with the revelation of the lifestream sequence, you have enough non variable events to examine the past events and even the low highwind sequence in light of the new revelations to realize the import of what you've muddled through before.

 

[Dashell]

How, exactly, are we hiding it, when I've responded to them directly explaining the logic underlying why 'there are two versions of this scene' is an argumentative non starter?

Ah the mysteries of life What's odd is how many of them argue that there were no feeling shared in the low affection version. So what about all those quotes that say they shared just feelings? They don't count or what?

There is no target.

I said something you didn't like and you reacted like that. That really made me think I was the target. Notice how Raquel explained almost the same exact point without screaming and swearing... and it's an awesome point and she did a good job and it made perfect sense and most people are much more inclined to read a post like that then one like the one you made.

It also doesn't make the argument any worse. That's the trick. An argument stands and falls on its own merits, regardless, and yes, in despite, of the flourishes and asinine crap attached to it.

Actually it does hurt your argument. Well maybe not the argument itself but people who disagree aren't going to read that and think, "oh you're right, my bad." If anything, it does the opposite. It makes people not want to listen to you and not take you seriously.

I can completely understand the frustration especially with things like "Tifa and Cloud have NO good moments together. only horrible moments. Why would Cloud put himself through the torment of being with Tifa?" and "IT's describing her character traits!" (no really, I ran into someone spewing that nonsense the other day and believe me, I was annoyed as fuck, but I still tried to stay as reasonable as possible) and of course "Well these quotes don't say what feelings, but these two say love, so the two that say love don't count." and things like that, but really, what is getting that angry going to do?

I find the Discovery at the train station rather moving in that regards.
Of course, there's CoT, and AC/C too.

Right on the first part but I meant in regards to the game itself.

 

[Dashell]

How does "Cloud didn't lose only Aerith but also a piece of him." prove Clerith again? That one always confuses me... are they saying Aerith was a part of him?

 

[Vendel]

How does "Cloud didn't lose only Aerith but also a piece of him." prove Clerith again? That one always confuses me... are they saying Aerith was a part of him?

What says that?

 

[Dashell]

It's not the exact quote but it's from Dismantled. It says something like that, I don't feel like digging for the actual quote but I know it came up again.

 

[Vendel]

It's not the exact quote but it's from Dismantled. It says something like that, I don't feel like digging for the actual quote but I know it came up again.

Dismantled huh? I know little about it. But what I do know doesn't move my needle at all.

And the quotes I see from it sound like fanfiction.

 

[Dashell]

I think it WAS written by the same guy who wrote Maiden.

OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE I JUST REALIZED

It's a story. It is not fair to make things up that were are not shown. As such, we must obey the evidence.

Aerith, on the other hand, is someone you could stay with for years with no real problems.

IN THE SAME GOD DAMN POST! I'm not even kidding.

So remember folks, It's not fair to make up stuff in the story that didn't happen but Cloud would have been with Aerith for years with no problems.

(and before anyone says anything, YES I did call him out on this)

 

[Vendel]

Make up things that are not shown? Like Clouds love for Aerith?

 

[Dashell]

Or the terrible relationship that Cloud and Tifa have that's so bad that even if we Clotis got together and made a list of all the romantic moments for Cloud and Tifa, the negative moments they had would outweigh those.

 

[Vendel]

Or the terrible relationship that Cloud and Tifa have that's so bad that even if we Clotis got together and made a list of all the romantic moments for Cloud and Tifa, the negative moments they had would outweigh those.

Which is why Cloud has been living with Tifa for the better part of 4 years compilation time. Right?

 

[Celes Chere]

Lol, oh Alex.

You amuse me so.

 

[Splintered]

Aerith, on the other hand, is someone you could stay with for years with no real problems.

Bullshit, not necessarily with the Aerith part but it's implying that Cloud would have had a perfect relationship and healthy lifestyle if he were cohabitating with Aerith. And that Tifa and Cloud are fundamentally a broken relationship.

The majority of problems that stemmed from Cloud-Tifa were problems that Cloud had himself and his inability to express his problems. This is not changed if Aerith is around. The only thing that would change is part of his guilt because Aerith would not have died.

But his personality, geostigma, his knee-jerk reaction to keep it all inside, that would all still be the same and he still would have had problems. He still needed to get through his personal problems and he still always will have to and that would happen with Tifa and Aerith. After reading CoT, and seeing how everything came about, I fail to see what anybody could have done better.

(and before anyone says anything, YES I did call him out on this)

What did he say?

 

[Dashell]

He said nothing so far, I was too busy yelling at Cali:
http://z8.invisionfree.com/Cloud_x_Aerith/index.php?showtopic=10135&st=60#entry12471029

That's probably going to get me a warning

EDIT:
okay he said that Tifa is a downer and so is Cloud so they can only drag each other down or something. Not sure what that has to do with the double standard but....

 

[Makoeyes987]

...Where did that new translation of the Nojima OTWTS quote come from?

Wait, you said that was your perspective? As in, you're paraphrasing his thoughts?

 

[Dashell]

And adding in a few things here and there to make it sound better for her ship

Also you guys should have seen the original post i made which said "Fuck you Fuck you Fuck you Fuck you Fuck you Fuck you!" but yeah that wouldn't get me anywhere XD

 

[Splintered]

How is Tifa a downer? Beginning of CoT she obviously was working out her issues, but by the end she recovered and is the emotional rock for a good portion of the movie.

 

[Dashell]

She wears black? Idk.