The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[Ryushikaze]

Seemed pretty eloquent for a troll.

But I kind of stopped reading after they mentioned Kingdom Hearts and Aerith being Cloud's light.

Troll might not be the right word, but willfully oblivious of the truth definitely applies, at least. They still think there's an actual orphanage and, as you mentioned, that Aerith is Cloud's light in KH, and that AUs count for anything.

 

[Strangelove]

So many words but so little actually said.

Shrouded, is that you???

 

[Ryushikaze]

Shrouded, is that you???

I'd argue that for as little as Eidolon actually says, there's still too much actual content to be Shroudy.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Johnny, now there's a confusing character in terms of backstory. I'm not entirely sure where the idea that he was another childhood friend (as opposed to old friend) came from. He seems to exist to raise a bunch of different questions.
I know the letter from the son of the general store is attributed to him a lot, but is it confirmed from him?

The claim was made constantly for a while that the Kaitai Shinsho confirmed such a thing, but he's barely mentioned in the book at all, and what little mention there is of him says nothing to that effect.

Furthermore, Cloud can have a conversation with Johnny's dad about Nibelheim, and the way the dude talks certainly doesn't lend itself to what one would expect if he was from there or at least used to live there:

(Using Yinza's script here)

Johnny's Dad
Ha! Ha!...... I wonder if my son's already left?
When it's just my wife and I here, you have no idea how lonesome it gets.
You want them to be happy and do what they want while they're young, but being a parent, you can't help but worry...
I guess I'm not cut out to be a parent yet.
By the way......
Where are you from?
Cloud
- A village called Nibelheim

- Who cares?

• A village called Nibelheim
  
  Johnny's Dad
  Hm...... you said Nibelheim? Wasn't it in the news a while back?
  Something to do with a Reactor accident...
  That was the first major Mako accident, so I remember it really being a hot topic.

I always thought Johnny was from Nibelheim. Doesn't he call Cloud "childhood friend" right at the beginning?

I thought the 'childhood friend' part was him referring to Cloud being Tifa's childhood friend.

Yeah, it totally was. Read the line as though "childhood friend" is a name and it will make more sense.

Notice also that in a later conversation he refers to Cloud specifically as Tifa's childhood friend:

Johnny
Man... Should I go...... or not?
...I get so mental at times like this. I'm hopeless!!
Hey!! Aren't you...?
What!! You mean you're... too?
Cloud
- Yeah, me too.

- Don't bring me down to your level

• Yeah, me too.
  
  Johnny
  You're Tifa's childhood friend, and you brought a new girlfriend to a place like this!?
  What kind of guy are you!!

Of course, we also get that weird conversation later still at Costa del Sol ("We were in SOLDIER, and childhood friends before that. You were such a playboy. And a $#&^ murderer!! Why can't I remember your name?"), but, as hito pointed out, the Ultimania Omega says he was kind of off his nut due to the stress he'd gone through.

If you found out your crush just got a job as a stripper/hooker/sex for monies person what would you do?

Blow a paycheck or two.

That's what Brian Boitano'd do.

I call troll.

I mean FFS if I can learn it, it can't be that hard.

Have I mentioned I'm real proud of you, by the way? =)

 

[Celes Chere]

But I kind of stopped reading after they mentioned Kingdom Hearts and Aerith being Cloud's light.

UGH. NOT THAT SHIZZ AGAIN. I still find it quite amusing when it's argued, not that Aerith is his light, but that Tifa is his light and it suddenly isn't romantic because that means Tifa is 'a part' of him, and you can't love a part of yourself, so therefore Cloti = not possible.

I wonder how long it took to think that up. BD

 

[Ryushikaze]

The claim was made constantly for a while that the Kaitai Shinsho confirmed such a thing, but he's barely mentioned in the book at all, and what little mention there is of him says nothing to that effect.

Furthermore, Cloud can have a conversation with Johnny's dad about Nibelheim, and the way the dude talks certainly doesn't lend itself to what one would expect if he was from there or at least used to live there:

(Using Yinza's script here)

I thought there was something in the OG that put 'Johnny is from Nibelheim' to rest, but could not remember what it was. Thank you.

UGH. NOT THAT SHIZZ AGAIN. I still find it quite amusing when it's argued, not that Aerith is his light, but that Tifa is his light and it suddenly isn't romantic because that means Tifa is 'a part' of him, and you can't love a part of yourself, so therefore Cloti = not possible.

I wonder how long it took to think that up. BD

If one was inclined, one could look for the first time the argument appeared in public and compare that to the release of the game itself.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Something occurred to me on the bus ride home.

Okay, Sephiroth wants to mindfuck Cloud in FF7, check. He kills Aerith to do this, and tries to make Cloud kill her first. But why? Okay, Sephiroth wants Cloud to suffer. He thinks making him kill Aerith is the way to do it? If Sephiroth really wanted Cloud to suffer, and Cloti is the intent, why not endanger Tifa? Sure, he was gonna kill Aerith anyway, but he made it a grand production to mess with Cloud's head. Seems to me if Tifa was the one Cloud was interested in, Sephiroth would target her too. But nope, he never shows any concern for Tifa at all.

I'm just thinking that could be significant - that Sephiroth shows interest in Aerith when it comes to tormenting Cloud and shows none in Tifa. Maybe he thinks Aerith's death would have a greater impact on the guy than Tifa's, that he puts a lot of effort into the former and never even considers the latter? If nothing else, it's curious that it never occurs to Sephiroth to try and kill Tifa too, rob Cloud of both his love interests.

 

[Sigbru]

Maybe because he wanted Tifa alive so they could suffer over the whole Nibelheim flashback stuff. He seems to prefer leaving everyone hopeless and miserable than just alright kill them, he just did it to Aerith because she was an actual threat to Meteor

alternatively, he just read a clerith essay and believed it

 

[Ryushikaze]

Something occurred to me on the bus ride home.

Okay, Sephiroth wants to mindfuck Cloud in FF7, check. He kills Aerith to do this, and tries to make Cloud kill her first. But why? Okay, Sephiroth wants Cloud to suffer. He thinks making him kill Aerith is the way to do it? If Sephiroth really wanted Cloud to suffer, and Cloti is the intent, why not endanger Tifa? Sure, he was gonna kill Aerith anyway, but he made it a grand production to mess with Cloud's head. Seems to me if Tifa was the one Cloud was interested in, Sephiroth would target her too. But nope, he never shows any concern for Tifa at all.

Tifa doesn't interfere with Sephiroth's plans. Aerith does. He actually doesn't take any interest in Aerith until the Temple, either, come to think of it.

I'm just thinking that could be significant - that Sephiroth shows interest in Aerith when it comes to tormenting Cloud and shows none in Tifa. Maybe he thinks Aerith's death would have a greater impact on the guy than Tifa's, that he puts a lot of effort into the former and never even considers the latter? If nothing else, it's curious that it never occurs to Sephiroth to try and kill Tifa too, rob Cloud of both his love interests.

I think it's more 'You are my puppet, you will do my bidding, you will kill those who stand in my way' than 'Neener neener, I killed the chick you want to bone'
I mean, you really want to break Cloud, why stop at just one chick? Why not make the man go yabbo and try and kill EVERYONE?
Fucking with Cloud is Sephiroth's hobby, but if it's getting in the way of his goals, it's not worth the effort. He tried to combine his hobby once in having Cloud kill his own friend to further the agenda. It didn't work. So he 'stepped in personally' to do what he could not make Cloud do- destroy the obstacle to his plans.

 

[crack]

Seems to me if Tifa was the one Cloud was interested in, Sephiroth would target her too. But nope, he never shows any concern for Tifa at all.

:I

Why does it matter that Sephiroth showed no concern in her...? Tifa's not the one casting Holy and ruining his plans.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

:I

Why does it matter that Sephiroth showed no concern in her...? Tifa's not the one casting Holy and ruining his plans.

Re-read the post.

I think it's more 'You are my puppet, you will do my bidding, you will kill those who stand in my way' than 'Neener neener, I killed the chick you want to bone'
I mean, you really want to break Cloud, why stop at just one chick? Why not make the man go yabbo and try and kill EVERYONE?
Fucking with Cloud is Sephiroth's hobby, but if it's getting in the way of his goals, it's not worth the effort. He tried to combine his hobby once in having Cloud kill his own friend to further the agenda. It didn't work. So he 'stepped in personally' to do what he could not make Cloud do- destroy the obstacle to his plans.

Yeah, that's fair.

 

[crack]

In that case it never crossed Sephy's mind to kill anyone that got in his way of butt fucking Cloud SORRY SHIPPERS.

 

[Dashell]

Shrouded, is that you???

Nah he has more sense than that, plus he'd say it was him.

Have I mentioned I'm real proud of you, by the way? =)

I don't feel good cause you compliment me
and Hito's been helping me, be proud of him too for putting up with me.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Something occurred to me on the bus ride home.

Okay, Sephiroth wants to mindfuck Cloud in FF7, check. He kills Aerith to do this, and tries to make Cloud kill her first. But why? Okay, Sephiroth wants Cloud to suffer. He thinks making him kill Aerith is the way to do it? If Sephiroth really wanted Cloud to suffer, and Cloti is the intent, why not endanger Tifa? Sure, he was gonna kill Aerith anyway, but he made it a grand production to mess with Cloud's head. Seems to me if Tifa was the one Cloud was interested in, Sephiroth would target her too. But nope, he never shows any concern for Tifa at all.

I'm just thinking that could be significant - that Sephiroth shows interest in Aerith when it comes to tormenting Cloud and shows none in Tifa. Maybe he thinks Aerith's death would have a greater impact on the guy than Tifa's, that he puts a lot of effort into the former and never even considers the latter? If nothing else, it's curious that it never occurs to Sephiroth to try and kill Tifa too, rob Cloud of both his love interests.

I think it's like the others are saying -- Aerith was the only one to be an actual obstacle to his plan, so it wasn't necessary to kill anyone else. Hurting Cloud wasn't the only reason he selected her, or he could have just -- as Ryu said -- have Cloud try to kill everyone, which would definitely mess with him.

Besides, Seph needed Tifa alive to corroborate the mindfuckery since she was in Nibelheim and Cloud valued what she thought so highly.

 

[Winter]

So...what happened to the other kids then? O_O

CALL THE FBI PROFILING TEAM

 

[Zee]

UGH. NOT THAT SHIZZ AGAIN. I still find it quite amusing when it's argued, not that Aerith is his light, but that Tifa is his light and it suddenly isn't romantic because that means Tifa is 'a part' of him, and you can't love a part of yourself, so therefore Cloti = not possible.

I wonder how long it took to think that up. BD

that theory actually makes the most sense if you played through KH1 and CoM.

not that i think aeris is his light either, but still

 

[Tifabelle]

I think it's like the others are saying -- Aerith was the only one to be an actual obstacle to his plan, so it wasn't necessary to kill anyone else. Hurting Cloud wasn't the only reason he selected her, or he could have just -- as Ryu said -- have Cloud try to kill everyone, which would definitely mess with him.

Agreed. Aerith was the only one able to call Holy, therefore the only one that needed to die in the immediate.

Besides, Seph needed Tifa alive to corroborate the mindfuckery since she was in Nibelheim and Cloud valued what she thought so highly.

But why does he need Cloud in the right mind at all? The only reason is he would want to shatter the illusion as a way to mess with him and tell him he's a puppet, but I don't see why he necessarily needs Cloud to be all there.

 

[Ryushikaze]

that theory actually makes the most sense if you played through KH1 and CoM.

not that i think aeris is his light either, but still

The 'Your light is yourself' theory doesn't make a whole lot of sense alone, same as 'the light is your romantic love' doesn't make much sense, either. Your light can be either internal or external, romantic or platonic.

Birth By Sleep throws a glorious wrench in the works as well. In short, it's amazingly complicated.
Of course, Zee, we are talking about the folks who proposed (and one who apparently STILL proposes, if we take Eidolon at their word) the Romantic Theory of Light in KH re: Cloud and Aerith, who tries and deny that Tifa was revealed as Cloud's light in KH2. So there is that.

But why does he need Cloud in the right mind at all? The only reason is he would want to shatter the illusion as a way to mess with him and tell him he's a puppet, but I don't see why he necessarily needs Cloud to be all there.

It's an ego thing. Messing with Cloud assuages Sephiroth's bruised ego.

 

[Tifabelle]

It's an ego thing. Messing with Cloud assuages Sephiroth's bruised ego.

Oh I know. But I was just saying that I don't think it's reason enough to keep Tifa alive if he really wanted to kill her. Although Cloud wouldn't have believed Seph telling him about the illusion without Tifa's corroboration, so perhaps her survival was necessary.

Sephy's just mad cause Cloud kicked his butt. Imagine how he feels now, three times total. Now we now why he's always calling for his mommy!

 

[Zee]

@ryu: i know who you're talking about, but i still like to add in my .02. although i haven't gotten a chance to play the latest games in the series, the first one did establish that princesses were women with no darkness in their hearts, so it wouldn't make much sense for tifa to be human and have no darkness/the power of light. i mean i know the writing isn't super stellar or super consistent, but that's a pretty big oversight since it'd defy the plot the entire first game spun around.

 

[Raidou]

At the beginning of the game, Barret stands at the entrance of the bar it says

Barret
Heh heh ...
You want to meet your little baby?

Cloud
- Little baby?
- Out of my way!

* Little Baby?

Barret
Hey! Don 'act like you do not know what I mean!
I'm tellin 'you ...


Does anyone know what he's talking about?

 

[Sigbru]

Marlene? The lines is probably mistranslated enough fro Barret to be talking about her

Or Tifa. Maybe "little baby" is Barret's nickname for her

 

[Ryushikaze]

@ryu: i know who you're talking about, but i still like to add in my .02. although i haven't gotten a chance to play the latest games in the series, the first one did establish that princesses were women with no darkness in their hearts, so it wouldn't make much sense for tifa to be human and have no darkness/the power of light. i mean i know the writing isn't super stellar or super consistent, but that's a pretty big oversight since it'd defy the plot the entire first game spun around.

Not necessarily, given the information we've been given in the most recent games. I can understand your confusion, but there are ways for people of entirely pure light to exist without being princesses.
Now, she could still be a literal projection of Cloud's light, or she could be a holder of his light who has had her darkness excised.

Oh dear cock.... Dark Tifa.

At the beginning of the game, Barret stands at the entrance of the bar it says

Barret
Heh heh ...
You want to meet your little baby?

Cloud
- Little baby?
- Out of my way!

* Little Baby?

Barret
Hey! Don 'act like you do not know what I mean!
I'm tellin 'you ...


Does anyone know what he's talking about?

Tifa.
He's teasing Cloud about Tifa.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Marlene? The lines is probably mistranslated enough fro Barret to be talking about her

Or Tifa. Maybe "little baby" is Barret's nickname for her

It's definitely Tifa, but no, it's not his nickname, it's a dig at Cloud. "Your little baby" is supposed to reference his eagerness to get home to Tifa.
IIRC, though, the original line is formed with a patronizing way to say 'childhood friend' so 'little baby' while not the best, probably has the right connotations.

 

[Raidou]

I also thought it was talking about Marlene.
In my language is meaningless. Thanks