Ryu: I'll be responding to you concerning the contradictions matter later.
Fair enough. I don't care too much about the contradictions or lack thereof (aside from the There's no Cetra/ Let's get the Cetra, LOL), but the misrepresentations or glossing over of the arguments was what I wanted to address. That and that Quex does need to admit that she's fudging things when she's fudging things (I have nothing against it, personally- again, I'm a warsie for fuck's sake. Keeping a coherent continuity with the whole EU is based around lots of fudging and red ink- but you have to be honest about when you're doing it)
Anyways, I respond to the Frontpager, who will read this thread, but refuses to come in and join for fear of being under our power, as if she was not already by posting on the front page.
I respond to
This front page post
Given that you’re the moderator of the forum, it will probably give you more control over what I say over there huh? :3 how clever!
Neither I not any other mod are in the business of changing posts of people we disagree with. If we were, the debate subforum would be a lot more heavily edited, especially Vendel's posts.
Besides, Vendel's right about our ability to affect the comments on the front page, if we really wanted to, we could edit your posts there as well.
Alright, let’s start this.
“And you haven’t answered the facts I have presented to you from in AND out of the the original game.”
OK, what facts? :/ Please list down the facts that you keep ranting about.
Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings at the end of FF7, live together, and though there is a short time they live apart, they reach a communion and live together again in AC/C, DoC, and beyond.
Tifa is the only person Cloud has ever opened his heart to. Cloud’s family includes only Himself, Tifa, Denzel, and Marlene. It is the family he and Tifa were forming in edge. Tifa is an important woman to Cloud, and the mother of this family, the family to which he is the father figure.
To start. All of those statements come from sourcebooks just as official and far more informative than an instruction manual. And all but one of them is handily available on the front page, but I can provide a scan of it once I am again at my home computer.
Wat. You DO realize that it’s the relationship of Cloud, Tifa and Aerith we are talking about here right? So how is THAT irrelevant? OMG.
It is irrelevant because the discussion is not 'how well did Cloud and Tifa know each other as kids' but 'Which of the two women is Cloud in love with?' If not knowing each other well is irrelevant for C/A, as you think it is, it should also be irrelevant for C/T.
This is why I made the comment 'If having barely any interaction between Cloud and Tifa is somehow a death knell, then what of C/A who had none?' because C/A had no pre-game interaction. They had no lingering feelings, except for Aerith's lingering feelings for Zack, which she addresses later on if you get her date.
No, you just don’t know your shipdom as far as other fans are concerned. :/
I don't HAVE a shipdom, child. Like I keep telling you, I am no shipper. This is a matter of the narrative.
It's still an ad hominem because you made the accusation in lieu of an argument, and gave no argument to back it up.
Hmm heel face turn here? It took her quite a while before she decides that she likes Cloud for who he was. One point for Clerith then. :3
Err, no, It takes her awhile to realize she's been emotionally influenced by the spectre of her dead love in Cloud and resolves to get to like Cloud for who he is, a chance she never gets.
There's no 'point' either way.
This is of course just focusing on the relationship of Cloud, Tifa and Aerith. :/ I am quite aware WHY they want to kick Sephiroth’s ass, but the other party members’ input is kinda like defeating the purpose of this discussion.
You're evading the point- Cloud wanted to kick Sephiroth's ass long before Aerith's death, and EVERYONE wanted to kick sephiroth's ass because of her death. His goal to get Sephiroth to honor the memory of Aerith is not special or unique to him.
1. This discussion is about Cloud, Aerith and Tifa. Stop avoiding it. :/
I'm not. Pointing out that Cloud's reaction to Aerith is no different from the reaction of everyone else provides a needed context to this discussion.
2. And I didn’t even SAY that it was unimportant. :/
But you did casually ignore it, nor did you include that as part of why he might feel bad about her death after two years. Especially when 'guilt guilt guilt' is the pervading theme of his reaction to Aerith's- and Zack's- demise.
3. And this doesn’t fit in either. The talk is about the relationship of the 3, and I think I already covered that. :/
But it IS important because it once again provides a contrast to what you insist is a demonstration of romance by showing that Cloud treats Zack in the same way. Now, unless you're shipping Zoud, I think you'd agree that Cloud's responses to Zack and Aerith's demises are much the same.
Of course
Also LOL. If it wasn’t particularly ABOUT Aerith, it could have been any stage of the game where Cloud could get introduced in FF Tactics. :/ and they wouldn’t put in that flower selling scene either.
It's not particularly about Aerith. She shows up for two cameos, one selling her flower to Ramza, the other nearly being turned into a sex slave, and the matter is dropped entirely. All of Cloud's menu and battle quotes ignore the matter entirely.
Please acknowledge and address the KH series, Itadaki St Special, Ehrgeiz, etc.
Cloud was 14 at that time. Reaffirming ANYTHING, if any at all, would be reaffirming Cloud and Tifa moving on to start trusting each other. After all, when did Tifa manage to make a really major impact when he needed her most? During the Lifestream event? Even THEN, he was still haunted by Aerith’s death 2 years after. Some affirmation. XDDDDDD
He was also haunted by Zack's death two years later.
You seem to be treating this as a binary scale- if Tifa fails to do a thing +points for Aerith! But that's not how this works.
I fail to see how Cloud being 14 really makes a difference to his falling for Tifa and she him, and their affirmation and confirmation of these feelings later on.
Read the novella, and watch AC again. :/
I can only assume, since you are not being honest enough even to tell me to what you're referring to, much less explain it, that you reference the water drop on the Highwind. That's an affirmation of Tifa and Aerith's bond, stating "you were always with US"
LOLOLOLOLOL. Well that’s how you perceive it. But even a casual gamer who hates either shipdom could tell and comment that it was about Aerith and Cloud.
So you say.
The Ultimania Omega disagrees with you. So do a number of my ship hating friends. See, I can cite people who might or might not exist too!
At lease the UO exists and can be checked.
And so you represent the ENTIRETY of canon within the FF 7 universe? You haven’t even provided examples.
I've provided you with a number of them. Just because I did not cite the exact scene or page doesn't mean I have not given you examples.
Not that knowing something is on p29 of the UO or p12 of the 10th Anniversary Ultimania, or p33 of the Crisis Core Ultimania really helps you. I mean, I could just tell you to go read the various profiles we have here on the site, but I'm betting you've discounted them as biased already.
Everything you throw at me is just a delusion on your part – yes a delusion that you always throw back at me.
Once again, Ad hominems. At the very least, a baseless accusation, but given that this is being said to deflect away from my pointing out that you've been misreading/ misunderstanding/ misrepresenting the things I say, I will conclude that yes, this is an attack on my person being used instead of actually addressing the argument..
You ignore important ingredients in the relationship between Tifa and Cloud, which is pretty laughable. You just tell me straight out that I am attacking a strawman, and you twist what I am saying, when it’s pretty clear in my posts that they aren’t what you are making them up to be.
I am not twisting your statements, nor am I ignoring any ingredients. You, on the other hand, do want to ignore a number of important ingredients such as the greater context of the relationships of other people to Aerith, of Cloud's reaction to the death of others.
If you truly believe I am misrepresenting you, then point it out.
It’s not I who am misrepresenting YOU, you are misrepresenting yourself.
An amazing feat, to be sure. I say 'Cloud only opened his heart to Tifa' in reference to a statement from Prologue, and you go on a rant about their childhood, and I am misrepresenting myself. Will wonders never cease.
In the original game, it had always been Cloud and Aerith who was the special focus, with Tifa added in to make him into what he turned out to in AC, and Dirge.
It was not 'had always been' Cloud and Aerith in special focus. Not only does the latter half of the game once again focus on Cloud and Tifa growing closer to one another, but the first half of the game focuses on Aerith to make her death all the more painful for you, the audience member.
Square Enix has said, is still saying, and almost certainly will continue to say that the High Highwind scene is about Cloud and Tifa confirming their mutual feelings, that the two belong together, that the two reach a communion, that the two live together, that their family of four is THEIR family of four.
The relationship of Cloud and Aerith had always been focused in whichever AU game they are in – does that make you feel like there really IS something beyond what you and some rabid CloTi fans say as mere delusion?
Cloud and Tifa's relationship is focused on in KH2 and Itadaki St. Special. Cloud and Aerith's relationship is pretty much a non starter in Tactics and KH, and barely touched upon in KH2. Aerith spends more time flirting with a DQ8 character in ISS than Cloud.
Also that thing with Vendel, if Rufus didn’t call Cloud an EX-SOLDIER, then Squeenix is contradicting themselves, and so the Ultimania is just one big contradiction after all. And add that to the fact Squeenix also has the say what they put in THAT game manual, whether we like it or not. :/
Are you forgetting that Cloud himself admits he was never in SOLDIER? That when Rufus calls him Ex-SOLDIER later, his response was pointing out that he never was one? If you've not seen Advent Children Complete, Cloud's pep talk with Zack includes the line (paraphrased) 'That's right, you never were a SOLDIER.'
Cloud was never a SOLDIER. He's built like one, but that does not make him a member.
Please come back after you actually know what the meaning of delusion is. :3
Once again, you really need to work on your closing zingers. I haven't accused you of delusion. It is you who has accused me of delusion. And rabidity. And being Cloti.
At worst, I have accused you of deliberately or unintentionally misinterpreting the things I am saying, and not being as familiar with the source material as you would like to act as you are, but you're accusing me of the same thing on a grander scale, anyways.
