The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[Alessa Gillespie]

She was 19. Hardly cradle robbing.

wiki told me 18. UNLESS U SAY WIKI R RONG

 

[Celes Chere]

Squall/Quistis instead

I'd adore this pairing if Squall weren't a complete fucking jackass to her. That woman deserves better. As crack beat me to saying.

YOU KNOW WHAT I SHIP? QUISTISxSELPHIE. That's be cute and hot. BD

 

[Ryushikaze]

wiki told me 18. UNLESS U SAY WIKI R RONG

I could be wrong, but I think she hits a birthday during the course of the game like Barret does, being 18 at the start and 19 at the end. The age gap is less than two full years, anyways.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Wow. This thread was not like this when I last saw it. Did it go off topic when Maiden was brought up?

 

[Tifabelle]

Wow. This thread was not like this when I last saw it. Did it go off topic when Maiden was brought up?

Maiden made the world go off topic.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Wow. This thread was not like this when I last saw it. Did it go off topic when Maiden was brought up?

Yes, then it came back on topic, and got derailed again with the discussion of AU shipping. It should probably return back to topic shortly.

HINT, HINT, EVERYONE.

 

[Splintered]

HINT, HINT, EVERYONE.

Crack pairings are more fun but..

FINE I'LL PRETEND TO GO ON TOPIC:

I've run into arguments that if Cloud went with Aerith it would totally ruin the message of AC/C, or that if Cloud went with Tifa it would go against his personality in FFVII.

Does anybody feel that the personal stories, morals, or narratives would change if one pairing happened over the other. I'm not saying that the character's would automatically stop being them, or that the plot would never hold up, but subtle differences in the atmosphere or messages.

For example:

Cloud/Aerith is argued to be a much more "fantasy" couple, and that it is a strong basis for Cloud's behavior and makes his actions to "unfreeze Aerith's smile" seem much more significant. Going with Cloud/Tifa would break that fantasy-eque, and some how diminish the relationship between Cloud and Aerith.

Cloud/Tifa is a much more realistic couple that AC/C is trying to portray. If Cloud really went with Aerith in the end of AC/C it would completely go against the point that he was trying to get passed his guilt and living in the past and moving on to the things he has now.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Crack pairings are more fun but..

FINE I'LL PRETEND TO GO ON TOPIC:

I've run into arguments that if Cloud went with Aerith it would totally ruin the message of AC/C, or that if Cloud went with Tifa it would go against his personality in FFVII.

Does anybody feel that the personal stories, morals, or narratives would change if one pairing happened over the other. I'm not saying that the character's would automatically stop being them, or that the plot would never hold up, but subtle differences in the atmosphere or messages.

For example:

Cloud/Aerith is argued to be a much more "fantasy" couple, and that it is a strong basis for Cloud's behavior and makes his actions to "unfreeze Aerith's smile" seem much more significant. Going with Cloud/Tifa would break that fantasy-eque, and some how diminish the relationship between Cloud and Aerith.

Cloud/Tifa is a much more realistic couple that AC/C is trying to portray. If Cloud really went with Aerith in the end of AC/C it would completely go against the point that he was trying to get passed his guilt and living in the past and moving on to the things he has now.

As a big theme of ACC was 'family' according to its makers, his tossing off to go be with the other woman would kind of ruin the message they were trying to send.
The C/A argument seems to be working from the idea of the pairing as a given- that Cloud getting with Tifa would 'lessen' his interactions with Aerith because he's not eternally pining for Aerith, but Cloud can want Tifa without ruining what Aerith meant to him as a friend.

 

[ForceStealer]

It's amazing how Aeris being dead never seems to provide an easy solution to this debate.

And Squall/Cloud is an insult to Cloud.

 

[minimosey]

Cloud/Aerith is argued to be a much more "fantasy" couple

This has always disappointed me, because I like Cloud/Aerith but think that if Aerith had lived and actually gotten together with Cloud, she would drive him up the wall sometimes and their relationship would have problems just like Cloud and Tifa's--only different ones.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Response on no.2- It's not Hojo's copy being encountered in the main game that's the issue, but Hojo's life signs in the prologue.

Also not an issue. He obviously had crawled to the panel after the battle, unless, of course, you think Vincent sat him down over there after the fight.

So, he was still alive after the fight, albeit mortally wounded and dying, crawled his way to the computer panel, accessed the file containing his recorded fragments, hit a button -- cue the "start fragment program" message on the screen.

He then died.

On 3- COLW says they were ON THE VERGE of diffusing, that they HADN'T. Maiden presents it that all the other Cetra were gone, even from the lifestream.

"Even from the Lifestream"? And where exactly would they have gone?

As for the "on the verge of diffusing" distinction you're drawing, CotL White still refers to them as "fragments of consciousness." If there's a distinction to be drawn here, it's too small for me to care about in a world of Dinnes, JENOVA Project Gs and Sephiroth jumping.

On 4- Where the hell are you getting that the other spirits were watching or even able? Making things up to get out of a contradiction is viable, BUT ADMIT YOU'RE MAKING SHIT UP.

Where are you getting that other spirits weren't watching or even able? See, I can do it too.

In any event, again, how do you even begin to argue that no one else was around when they were literally in a sea of consciousness?

Also, why did you ignore the more important point being made there?: "The quote in Tifa's profile says that Tifa became a witness to his blurry memories and ALSO helped put Cloud back together." Two separate events, brohan.

On 5- 'There could be a gap of time in between these two events we see happening immediately next to each other' is, again, MAKING SHIT UP.

You tossed a span of time in between a jump cut between two cameras depicting the same scene. That's a fudge, same as the 'emergency backup hyperdrive' was a fudge for ESB until it became official. Now, if you're saying you DIDN'T do that, then yes, I would be attacking a strawman. But your argument does insert a temporal gap between the end of the 'last fight' and the start of the FMV.

Ryu, by nature of what they are, jump cuts involve undepicted time.

In any case, it was a fade and not a jump cut anyway, and you really can't fault myself or Que for suggesting that something could have taken place there when SE goes about inserting entire scenes of Genesis inside reactors behind fades.

For that matter, the description of Sephiroth's passing in that scene from Maiden suggests that he's trying to fight against his fate for a moment before finally succumbing. That is shown onscreen during the battle, before the FMV begins, as there's a long moment of Sephiroth struggling to remain standing, along with a focus on his face:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUpU7iw5v2k

This could easily be taken to be the moment of him smiling and laughing. Really, give me a reason to think he couldn't have been laughing in this non-physical battle in a scene from a game that lacks voice acting.

Is this fanwank? Perhaps. If it is, though, it's certainly not as egregious as the links you've gone to excuse Red XIII whining like a little bitch all over Gaia about how he's the last of his kind despite Before Crisis showing that he knew there was another one running around.

On 8... Quex, was that quote not phrase in the 'cannot' rather than 'does not?'

Despite that being an irrelevant distinction anyway since both cases would amount to Aerith not knowing, no, it doesn't say that. It says "Aerith wa sono jijitsu wo shiranai" (エアリスはその事実を知らな&#12356: "This truth is unknown to Aerith."

The difference between "wakarimasen" and "shirimasen," by the way, is that the former means "I don't understand" and can also mean "I don't know" due to a lack of information, while the latter always means "I don't know" from a lack of information (as well as possibly a lack of care to find out).

ryu, I'm sorry, but you are SUCH a cloti

SIGGED.

 

[Ryushikaze]

This has always disappointed me, because I like Cloud/Aerith but think that if Aerith had lived and actually gotten together with Cloud, she would drive him up the wall sometimes and their relationship would have problems just like Cloud and Tifa's--only different ones.

Arguably, the reason it's a 'fantasy couple' is BECAUSE she's dead. Several times it's been pleaded that the relationship shouldn't be held to real world standards because she's dead.

But yeah, Fantasy couples rarely happen, even in fantasy stories.

 

[Fighter]

Cloud/Aerith is argued to be a much more "fantasy" couple, and that it is a strong basis for Cloud's behavior and makes his actions to "unfreeze Aerith's smile" seem much more significant. Going with Cloud/Tifa would break that fantasy-eque, and some how diminish the relationship between Cloud and Aerith.

Tifa is just as much a "fantasy" romance. Starting from the childhood friend/girl next door archetype to the protagonist fulfilling his desire to be her hero. It only gets 'realistic' in AC.

As for Aerith's role being diminished (LTD wise), well, yes. The tale leads you one way then hits you with a plot twist. The expected trope ends up being subverted.

The whole LT is a "fantasy" trope: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BettyAndVeronica

 

[Dashell]

EDIT:
OH HEY Tres you replied XD We even repeated each other, cool

Maiden is a story, hence should be equated to any of the games/stories as an entry in the Compilation. SE doesn't list it (it doesn't matter how many times they've listed it, once is enough), therefore it's not an entry.

But Tifabelle, the Ultimanias aren't listed as part of the compilation but they're still considered...

I know what you're going to say, "But Tifabelle, the ultimania aren't listed as part of the compilation but they're still considered canon".

God dammit...

Sigh, Q. The Ultimania are references based on entries in the compilation. You can't compare Maiden to ultimania; apples to oranges. Maiden is not a reference, but an attempt at a new story. Not the same thing.

Lol I've seen Maiden used as a reference

You bring up a decent point and perhaps I'll address that later if I revise the essay.

As far as interviews, they are the "word of god" on the FF7 universe, and again not comparable to Maiden. Benny is not a "god" of said universe, even if you did want to compare.

I agree but if he writes something that Square publishes, that becomes a different story. They were obviously okay with everything he wrote or they wouldn't have published it.

You tossed a span of time in between a jump cut between two cameras depicting the same scene. That's a fudge, same as the 'emergency backup hyperdrive' was a fudge for ESB until it became official. Now, if you're saying you DIDN'T do that, then yes, I would be attacking a strawman. But your argument does insert a temporal gap between the end of the 'last fight' and the start of the FMV.

I'm saying Tres did that, not me I just agreed.

But FYI, Tres and I didn't fudge any time there either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn7lohID9UE#t=1m7s

That's right after Cloud's final slash of Omnislah. The scene ends at 1:24. That's 17 seconds right there. And I'm sorry but, honestly, it does kinda look like Sephiroth is laughing in the end there. Yeah he's probably writhing in pain, but I can see how someone could see that as laughing. Especially at about 1:13... doesn't that just look like an evil laugh to you.... I'm sure it doesn't but I can see how someone would mistake that.

So nope, no fudging there.

Incidentally, by attacking word choice as opposed to the actual thing I was arguing, you yourself attacked a strawman, Quex.

Oh would you stop XD

Present, yes? Aware? No. There was no rhyme nor reason to the information 'shouted' at Tifa during her descent.

So they were there, but didn't know what was going on? Is that what you mean?
I'm sorry but it sounds to me like you're the one just assuming things now. Why would they not be aware of it?... it seems to be spirits are pretty aware of things in CoLW, so why not here?

ryu, I'm sorry, but you are SUCH a cloti

Dammit winter stop making good posts, I have too much stuff in my sig already D:

 

[minimosey]

Arguably, the reason it's a 'fantasy couple' is BECAUSE she's dead. Several times it's been pleaded that the relationship shouldn't be held to real world standards because she's dead.

But yeah, Fantasy couples rarely happen, even in fantasy stories.

Can we hold this to Aerith's standards? Because seriously, Zack's death and her interest in Cloud. Yes, she was stuck on Zack and Cloud's similarities for a while, but she moved past him in romance. Cloud being stuck on her a whole two years after her death would probably make her want to give him a spiritual boot to the head and ask why he is ignoring the perfectly good girl right in front of him.

IDK, I just think if Cloud/Aerith was canon, as the compilation stands, she'd be itching to break up her own ship.

 

[crack]

It's amazing how Aeris being dead never seems to provide an easy solution to this debate.

Because she's dead, really? I'm not saying Cloud did love Aerith, but to say that Cloud loves Tifa because the other girl is dead shouldn't be an option to solve this debate, considering how Aerith's still lives on 'spiritually' after her death.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Also not an issue. He obviously had crawled to the panel after the battle, unless, of course, you think Vincent sat him down over there after the fight.

So, he was still alive after the fight, albeit mortally wounded and dying, crawled his way to the computer panel, accessed the file containing his recorded fragments, hit a button -- cue the "start fragment program" message on the screen.

He then died.

The problem being that makes him alive for the part where Maiden says he's dead.

"Even from the Lifestream"? And where exactly would they have gone?

Diffused and reborn as other organisms. Like data being wiped from a computer- the storage space is there, but the specific data is gone.

As for the "on the verge of diffusing" distinction you're drawing, CotL White still refers to them as "fragments of consciousness." If there's a distinction to be drawn here, it's too small for me to care about in a world of Dinnes, JENOVA Project Gs and Sephiroth jumping.

Fragments, but still there, as opposed to gone.
Sephiroth jumping is still fucktarded and a contradiction, but the other Jenova projects, stupid as they are in execution, aren't a direct contradiction of anything I can think of.

Where are you getting that other spirits weren't watching or even able? See, I can do it too.

Indeed. And we're both arguably just making shit up. But there is no rhyme nor reason to what the voices in the lifestream say, which doesn't suggest great awareness.

In any event, again, how do you even begin to argue that no one else was around when they were literally in a sea of consciousness?

I'm not arguing there was none other present, just that the others might not be able to observe. No witnesses doesn't mean 'no one there'

Also, why did you ignore the more important point being made there?: "Notice that the passage says she becomes the only witness to his questionable recollection, and that she *also* plays an important role in him regaining his proper memories." Two separate events, brohan.

Ryu, by nature of what they are, jump cuts involve undepicted time.

No, a jump cut can be used between to camera angles, or when no change in time is supposed to be inferred in the story. Bewitched used them all the time to indicate magic happening. Of course, looking up on the matter, I see that it's technically wrong to call them jump cuts when the angle is too great.
In any case, the camera angle changes numerous times during the final Cloud and Sephiroth battle with no skip in the passage of time. You've asserted that at the end of the fight to its immediate aftermath does involve a passage of time along with the angle change.

In any case, it was a fade and not a jump cut anyway, and you really can't fault myself or Que for suggesting that something could have taken place there when SE goes about inserting entire scenes of Genesis inside reactors behind fades.

All the battles end in fades, though. And the boss battles several times end in fades and pick up right at the end of battle. Including the actual final battle that matters.

For that matter, the description of Sephiroth's passing in that scene from Maiden suggests that he's trying to fight against his fate for a moment before finally succumbing. That is shown onscreen during the battle, before the FMV begins, as there's a long moment of Sephiroth struggling to remain standing, along with a focus on his face:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUpU7iw5v2k

This could easily be taken to be the moment of him smiling and laughing. Really, give me a reason to think he couldn't have been laughing in this non-physical battle in a scene from a game that lacks voice acting.

Well, he's very blatantly not smiling, but pfeh.
Like I said, it's fudging shit, and that's fine, but just admit you're fudging shit.

Is this fanwank? Perhaps. If it is, though, it's certainly not as egregious as the links you've gone to excuse Red XIII whining like a little bitch all over Gaia about how he's the last of his kind despite Before Crisis showing that he knew there was another one running around.

How is 'Stupid emo teen acts like stupid emo teen' going to lengths? My entire argument there is 'Well, people can be stupid at times and other people can let them wallow in their mistakes, and well, Bugen does something similar about Red's misconception with his dad. Even after I say that shit, BTW, I agree that chunk of BC should be tossed. It's still atrocious writing.

I'm in favor of knocking out much of BC as well, and knocking or rewriting chunks of CC too. Even the current continuity model we have (the inside outside compilation list) isn't a sufficient one.
Quick, let's get S-E to hire us as a continuity chronicler, a la the Holocron of LFL.

-bit on Aerith knowing-

I didn't remember what the original said, actually. I was asking for clarification, not arguing.

SIGGED.

You Basterd.
Seriously, though, I fucking hate ship terms and the associated bullfuckery. I don't self identify as any fucking type of shipper, nor do I think that arguing for a pairing as part of the canon is any different from arguing anything else as canon or acanon like R=U or WOTC.

I agree but if he writes something that Square publishes, that becomes a different story. They were obviously okay with everything he wrote or they wouldn't have published it.

I heard this one a lot during the Clone army debates. LFL dropped the ball with Karen Traviss. S-E has dropped the ball several times. Like BC. They could have dropped the ball here. Hence, consistency and preponderance of evidence.

I'm saying Tres did that, not me I just agreed.

Yes, just following orders...

But FYI, Tres and I didn't fudge any time there either.

That's right after Cloud's final slash of Omnislah. The scene ends at 1:24. That's 17 seconds right there. And I'm sorry but, honestly, it does kinda look like Sephiroth is laughing in the end there. Yeah he's probably writhing in pain, but I can see how someone could see that as laughing. Especially at about 1:13... doesn't that just look like an evil laugh to you.... I'm sure it doesn't but I can see how someone would mistake that.

So nope, no fudging there.

Well, the perpetual frown definitely isn't a smile...

Oh would you stop XD

NEVAR!

So they were there, but didn't know what was going on? Is that what you mean?
I'm sorry but it sounds to me like you're the one just assuming things now. Why would they not be aware of it?... it seems to be spirits are pretty aware of things in CoLW, so why not here?

In COLW, after they are defragmented and informed, you mean? I mean, we have Sephiroth, captain obsessed, and Aerith, commander general special rules, but others don't seem to have any inherent idea of what's going on.

Dammit winter stop making good posts, I have too much stuff in my sig already D:

Fuck all y'all.

 

[ForceStealer]

Because she's dead, really? I'm not saying Cloud did love Aerith, but to say that Cloud loves Tifa because the other girl is dead shouldn't be an option to solve this debate, considering how Aerith's still lives on 'spiritually' after her death.

Man you're really going after me today To be honest I only said that so I wouldn't get in trouble by mentioning Cloud and Squall again once everyone was back on topic

And still, but my point wasn't really that Cloud loves Tifa BECAUSE Aerith is dead...but it makes his decision easier, don't it? I was just marveling how the fanbase still cares so much considering that Aerith is, well, out of the running.

The discussion for some time now is about whether Aerith loved Cloud and to that end whether Maiden is canon and so on and so forth. And that's all fine with me because it explores a different facet of the plot. However I don't see what difference it makes in regards to the LTD.

 

[null]

whether Maiden is canon

Does anyone here really think Maiden is canon? Seriously folks, let's see a show of hands.

 

[ForceStealer]

I wasn't trying to start that again...

 

[null]

But you just said that's what the discussion is about and that's all fine with you.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Arguably, we were already on it with discussing a few contradictions in it.

BTW, Quex, in your essay, you really do need to address Aerith's backslide in understanding the distinction between Cloud and Zack.

 

[null]

Ok, so it's non-canon and contradictory. What a package.

 

[null]

What, wait, what "backsliding"?

 

[minimosey]

Arguably, we were already on it with discussing a few contradictions in it.

BTW, Quex, in your essay, you really do need to address Aerith's backslide in understanding the distinction between Cloud and Zack.

The part of Maiden that made me headdesk:

In-game, Aerith says they "look" the same. She explicitly names the way they walk.

In-Maiden, Aerith is searching for memories that show Cloud's individuality. She explicitly remembers...the way he walks???

I don't think I would have considered her accidentally calling Zack up with memories of Cloud a "backslide" otherwise--it's possible to be aware two things are different without being completely aware and able to name what the differences are--but Aerith does at least know what the similarities are. So why did Maiden have her think of that mannerism as if she didn't realize it wasn't unique to Cloud?

The writing's... bad. I don't think that one really can be excused.