The Final Fantasy VII LTD Thread (Round 4)

[Zee]

Nomura doesn't know when to stop with his quest to make everything 'symbolic' and 'ambiguous'. It stopped being clever a long time ago.

Can you imagine trying to get directions out of that guy?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Can you imagine trying to get directions out of that guy?

If you thought the guy who told you to go left where the old barn used to be was irritating, try the guy who won't tell you which direction to turn or where, and then says 'of course, there might not be a turn.'

Nomura... I'm WATCHING YOU.

 

[null]

Nojima had specific directions, but Nomura deleted them away so the driver could think freely.

 

[Celes Chere]

LOL it's gotten so bad in here, that you guys are actually discussing what a dot on the FFVII logo is...

Goodness gracious. xD
tbh I never noticed, and now that I see it I really don't care

 

[null]

SHUT UP. I just wanted to argue with Zee. Like old times, man.

Now everyone go back to being pencil dicks plz.

 

[Tifabelle]

Ryu, while I tend to agree with you that the materia is probably generic materia, you do have to admit it looks like holy. Talking about size and shape makes you sound like rabid Cl0ti, lol. But you do have to look at all the other crystals. They are just crystals, why would Cloud be an exception.


As you can see, I am undecided on this issue.

 

[Joe]

It's about to become even more nostalgic. GIANT RESPONSE TO SEVERAL POSTS FOLLOWS.



Nomura said it. It's the same article where he mentions they decided to have two heroes and bump one of them off.



I'm not so sure that's actually Z/A. There was a point in the early drafts where Aerith's first (unrequited) love was Sephiroth himself.



But that is not what happens. At ALL. Cloud ISN'T wandering, he's MAKING DELIVERIES. They didn't take him 'to' a field of flowers with Aerith in them, he DROVE RIGHT PAST HER. And he was HEADED HOME. To spend a day off with the family.



One is not blind if one does not see what is not there.



And Tifa wanted to go meet her.

ZOMFG, OT3!



NO. No other kids. No orphanage. YOU. WERE. WRONG.



You have proposed this idea several times. You have not substantiated it beyond the vaguest notions, and the body of the evidence is decidedly against it. Not only is Aerith not the only person who 'got to Cloud,' Tifa is also among the people who 'got to him' over the course of the movie, alongside Vincent, Marlene, Aerith, and Zack.



Why would he?



She's also be embarassed if she thought people had the right idea about what happened that night.



Are you saying Tifa's words- which actually spur Cloud into action, are the wrong way to treat him?



No, we knew all along that it was his desire for revenge from 5 years ago, to settle his past, that moved him to challenge Sephiroth. Aerith came along as an additional motivation, for everyone.
Plus, Aerith isn't his personal reason for going. 'We have to do this' as opposed to 'I have a very personal memory I'm fighting for' referencing the tender secret memories know one could know.
In AC/C, it's his desire to protect the living that drives him to fight, despite the fear of failing and losing them as he lost his good friends and family before.


And to her.



EXCEPT IT ISN'T. Aerith ISN'T Cloud's light. Tifa is. There ISN'T a focus in AU games about his guilt over her death. Hell, there's more focus about his hate on for Sephiroth and his friendship with Zack!



And his grief over Zack.



And from Tifa. And Vincent. And Marlene.



Which is COMPLETELY irrelevant to the point you were just making.



You've created a bizarre dichotomy here, missing a very important point. Aerith, though loving Cloud for Cloud, knows nothing about him, realizing she's been sort of mentally filling in with Zack. So she resolves to get to meet him. She wants to meet him BECAUSE she does not know him. And she never gets the chance.
It's tragic is what it is.



The same is true of English. I don't see anyone sane whinging about solved LTs in English.



Fuck 'better.' No, seriously. Fuck it. This is about which is canon. It's a matter of looking at the series, and asking a single, defined question with a simple answer, "Which one did he choose." Naruto and Bleach are based on shipping preference. FF7's LTD, Harry Potter's LTD, and Avatar's LTD, those are all based on concrete evidence.
Especially Book 4.



Because those feelings are included under the 'displays of romantic love' heading. The entire section is about people trying to display their romantic love for someone else. There's even a subsection specifically about non romantic love in the corner. I do have to ask- did you read the page?



Cloud's 'emo tripping' however, was all about how he was a failure and useless to his family.



But Sephy didn't want to use Cloud's guilt. He wanted to take what was most precious to Cloud and destroy it.



I think it's gloriously off base in a number of ways.



Except we can define love to a useful degree. We do so in real life. Why can we not apply things to fiction, where things are often far more cut and dry than in real life?



So, you're saying that if an author tells us 'Billie felt bad about what he had done,' we can't trust that he did unless he expounds on it?
That's silly.



... And no one is. But being told that two people confirmed feelings of romantic love for each other isn't 'telling those people how to think,' it's telling US what THOSE people DO think.



Yes, we CAN simply say that some things happen and some things don't. Different perspectives and opinions do not change reality, even fictional realities. If I think rabid squirrels with M16s killed president ShinRa, that does not somehow mean there's a doubt as to his actual death, because the 'how' has been confirmed.



And yet, despite all of the extra games, and the confusion, and the extra characters and sub plots and all that, each new entry has remained very consistent that Cloud and Tifa belong together. Again, not that preference changes validity. As much as would like to remove or rewrite the last Doctor Who christmas special from the timeline, it's still currently part of the timeline.



Yes. I can. Because people SEE PAIRINGS EVERYWHERE.
People see Zack/ Cissnei where the creators have said she was never even considered as a romantic interest for Zack.
People have seen Harry/Hermione and STILL SEE it despite J.K. Rowling calling them delusional and very soundly ending the series with different romantic pairings.
People still see Katara/Zuko despite THE NEW SERIES having the kid of the canon pairing as a character.



You say that like it's impressive. The Bible was rewritten and edited hundreds of times in the last 2000 years, in the 500 years before that since the Torah was formally written down, and moreso in the oral tradition predating that.
Hell, what we consider 'the bible' wasn't even formalized til the 4th century AD.


...And?
An idea having haters and dissidents is completely irrelevant. Appeal to Popularity/ conformity is a logical fallacy.
The existence of a conflict does not mean that one side cannot be correct, or at least MORE correct than their opposition. Evolution v Creationism, for example. Despite with the Discovery Insitute would like you to believe, the evidence is IN and in favor of Evolution and against creationsim. And it keeps coming in.




Then why are you doing it?
I mean, folks here dish it out, but we aren't exactly expecting kid gloves, either.



You'll find, I think, that despite the lack of a specific decorum regarding derision and insults, we tend to conduct ourselves with a measure of actual academic rigor.



Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory.



... We DO know what they're saying, though. And most of what you're citing, the 'panel size' and shit has nothing to do with translations and everthing to do with rabid whackaloon shippers.



They did! Without words!
Maybe without clothes!


But opinions don't supercede facts. We, like Joe Friday, only care about the facts. And the City, Lahoya, California.
::Cues Dragnet Theme::
I'm working them in!



But again, that's a rumor. And it's a pairing that you admit never actually happened. It's not FACT.



Which we don't deny.
We just see it as irrelevant to the facts of the matter. People arguing Clukiroth are just so much noise in the signal.



But the 'logic and reasoning' it is used to smash through are based on false premises, assumptions about the continuity that can be shown as incorrect.



You're falling into a mental trap here. You're assuming the importance MUST BE ROMANTIC.



But she COULD do something for him, and did. So did Vincent and Marlene. It's not 'All or nothing Aerith.'



But Cloud feels that same burden as a result of Zack's death, as a result of his current failings for his family. Aerith is the SYMBOL of his failings, not the whole of them.



BUT THAT'S ASININE! You have defined love in a way that doesn't exist! You want fairy tale love from story that is absolutely nothing like a fairy tale.



Ah, bito. Slang for 'hito' my ass. Compound construction, bitches.



Excepting Mukki, of course.



Yes, it was a group effort. Aerith played her part, everyone else did too.



If they were in love, all the pain and badness would just vanish. It is a juvenile and myopic view of love.



It IS him doing his business again. He says in Reminiscence 'I have one more delivery to make today,' before talking with Tifa about closing down and taking the day off tomorrow.



Hell, that 'ending' wasn't even in the original credits. Aerith watches Cloud drive by... and Cloud keeps on driving.



If nothing else, Cloud ships Zerith.



Also, the 'The happier he is' quote.



But Splintered, GUARDIAN AND SUMMONER! IT MEANSES SOMETHING!



Not that it has much to say about it. If you look at what actually occurs, Cloud actually saves Aerith this time, then he's all hunky dory 'gotta go find mah sword, let's go guys' and Ramza's words imply Tifa waiting for him on the other side.
Which is really interesting if you assume his Ivalice jaunt (if 'twere canon) took place while he was all Ooga.



Unless you want to suggest Cecil and Golbez are bumping Uglies and Firi's getting it on with the entire rebellion.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ryu, while I tend to agree with you that the materia is probably generic materia, you do have to admit it looks like holy.

Except, again, not... really. I keep hating to harp on this, but generic magic materia and holy are different colors, and Cloud's materia is the richer green of the magic materia.

Talking about size and shape makes you sound like rabid Cl0ti, lol. But you do have to look at all the other crystals. They are just crystals, why would Cloud be an exception.

Idunno, is it rabid to point out that it lacks one of the things that really does set the white Materia materially apart from the other materia? They're almost all round, and almost all the same size. Holy is set apart by being notably smaller and a unique color, just as the black materia is set apart by its increased size and its unique color.
And again, it's not JUST the color, or size, or both together. It's also the fact that none of the other fekakte crystals are that specific- quick which one of the 8 crystals in FFIV does Cecil get?
Which crystal shard does Bartz get?
What's on the sphere Tidus has?
What the FUCK is Squall's crystal?
Everything else is just Generic and/or without meaning. Why the fuck would Cloud be any different?
It's not about the LTD. It's actually about FF7 exceptionalism and how dumb it is in context.

As you can see, I am undecided on this issue.

Fair enough.

 

[Dashell]

<____<

>_____>

Actually I kind of love this debate because it underlines the subtle brilliance of FFVII, giving an ambiguous symbol and asking fans if this really represents death, or life. Then again, I'm the kind of fan that loves to overthink things so...

Why not make a new topic then? It doesn't really belong in the LTD

 

[Zee]

> implying this thread is or ever should be on topic

 

[Tifabelle]

Except, again, not... really. I keep hating to harp on this, but generic magic materia and holy are different colors, and Cloud's materia is the richer green of the magic materia.

Spoiler: AC Materia

There do seem to be some green ones in there that look like the one in Dissidia.

Spoiler: some from Dissidia

Spoiler: Holy

Spoiler: Yuffie holding a materia

Spoiler: OG

I couldn't find any of the materia menu, but there must be one somewhere.

It's also the fact that none of the other fekakte crystals are that specific- quick which one of the 8 crystals in FFIV does Cecil get?
Which crystal shard does Bartz get?
What's on the sphere Tidus has?
What the FUCK is Squall's crystal?
Everything else is just Generic and/or without meaning. Why the fuck would Cloud be any different?
It's not about the LTD. It's actually about FF7 exceptionalism and how dumb it is in context.

Yeah I agree with all that. And I know you're not referring to LTD business, I was teasing bc it seemed a bit out there to me. I was confused when people said the sphere Tidus had was Yuna's sphere bc I thought it was just generic sphere. Same thing with Cloud.


EDIT: Quex found Yuffie holding bunch of materia. I added it to the AC spoiler.

 

[Zee]

I was confused when people said the sphere Tidus had was Yuna's sphere bc I thought it was just generic sphere.

I never finished X so I don't really know, but I recall a few people saying it was Jecht's sphere, not Yuna's. I don't know about all the other characters, but for the ones I am familiar with the crystals don't seem random -- Zidane has the crystal from the ending of IX (again, the logo of his game), Squall has the feather represented by Rinoa (because VIII had jack shit of a plot outside of shitty romance) and Tidus has the sphere.

I mean I'd like to think it's more than a random sphere; they all have some sort of significance or personal meaning. Or so it seems.

 

[Dashell]

Squall has the feather represented by Rinoa (because VIII had jack shit of a plot outside of shitty romance)

NO

HE

FUCKING

DOESN'T

Fact is, none of the crystals are distinct. People go on and on about how they MIGHT be, but there's no proof.



And before anyone says "U MAD?" Yes I am. Because two of my biggest pet peeves are

A. People using wrong information to prove a point when this wrong information has been corrected by myself and many others over and over and over and it STILL gets repeated.

B. People making a claim and saying it's your job to prove them wrong.


and I'm sorry if I'm pissing anyone off here but that I can't believe that Squall feather nonsense is STILL going on.

 

[Splintered]

What was his crystal?

I actually never bothered beating his story mode, and I'm letting someone borrow my game.

Last I recall from VIII, besides its terrible romance plot, there was nothing that resembled crystals.

 

[Tifabelle]

Spoiler: Squall holding Bartz's feather

Spoiler: Squall holding a feather in the ending - reference to Rinoa

Spoiler: All the crystals

I can't tell what Squall's is - but it's not a feather. Tidus sphere could be Jecht's, Yuna's, or Auron's sphere. Materia looks like materia. It's green like holy perhaps. All quite generic looking to me.

 

[Splintered]

I want to say it's a restyling of griever necklace he likes for some reason or whatever.

It's different though. But it if it, there are some romantic implications with that, but arguably personal as well. At least, that's what I can remember from that game.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Spoiler: AC Materia

There do seem to be some green ones in there that look like the one in Dissidia. Couldn't find one of Yuffie's armful o' materia.

Spoiler: some from Dissidia

Spoiler: Holy

Spoiler: Yuffie holding a materia

Spoiler: OG

I couldn't find any of the materia menu, but there must be one somewhere.

The one from the Dissidia FMV resembles the OG green more than it does the OG White Materia. The one from in model cutscenes looks like he tried to make a snowball with a generic materia in it.

Yeah I agree with all that. And I know you're not referring to LTD business, I was teasing bc it seemed a bit out there to me. I was confused when people said the sphere Tidus had was Yuna's sphere bc I thought it was just generic sphere. Same thing with Cloud.

Fuck, it's ALL out there, especially the 'it is' arguments which amount to 'Maybe? It is!'

I never finished X so I don't really know, but I recall a few people saying it was Jecht's sphere, not Yuna's. I don't know about all the other characters, but for the ones I am familiar with the crystals don't seem random -- Zidane has the crystal from the ending of IX (again, the logo of his game), Squall has the feather represented by Rinoa (because VIII had jack shit of a plot outside of shitty romance) and Tidus has the sphere.

I mean I'd like to think it's more than a random sphere; they all have some sort of significance or personal meaning. Or so it seems.

Or maybe they're just sources of power. What, pray tell, is the personal meaning for Firi, for OK, for Cecil, for Bartz, for SQUALL, or Zidane?
And no, Squall's is no feather.

What was his crystal?

I actually never bothered beating his story mode, and I'm letting someone borrow my game.

Last I recall from VIII, besides its terrible romance plot, there was nothing that resembled crystals.

Squall's crystal was NOTHING. It was just a crystalline thing.

 

[Splintered]

Squall's crystal was NOTHING. It was just a crystalline thing.

Yeah apparently.

Checked it out on the wikia and their best guess was some kind of odd mix of a feather and a gunblade. And I got to say... I kinda see the gunblade thing.

Feather not so much, except for the ending.

 

[Dashell]

What, pray tell, is the personal meaning for Firi, for OK, for Cecil, for Bartz, for SQUALL, or Zidane?

To be fair she has been saying it's not so much related to Aerith but it's important to the FFVII game I believe. That's how this logo stuff came up.

 

[Tifabelle]

The one from the Dissidia FMV resembles the OG green more than it does the OG White Materia. The one from in model cutscenes looks like he tried to make a snowball with a generic materia in it.

Yeah. I'm glad Q found that pic of Yuffie in AC. I think it looks most like that one on the top of her pile.

That's how this logo stuff came up.

Shhhhhh! Don't let anyone hear you!

 

[Splintered]

For a game with little redeemable plot worth, there always seems to fight about every little thing.

They just need to pump out a FF Dissidia Omega already.

 

[Dashell]

Yeah. I'm glad Q found that pic of Yuffie in AC. I think it looks most like that one on the top of her pile.

I can't get keep my eyes off that "materia" at the top of her pile either

 

[Zee]

NO
And before anyone says "U MAD?"

 

[Zee]

also can someone explain to me how what he's holding is not a feather

i mean granted from the pictures i found i couldn't tell what the fuck it was, but that looks pretty clear to me

Checked it out on the wikia and their best guess was some kind of odd mix of a feather and a gunblade. And I got to say... I kinda see the gunblade thing.

Feather not so much, except for the ending.

derp your post got buried under the rage and tl;dr but yeah it does look like a feather and a gunblade had a baby

It's different though. But it if it, there are some romantic implications with that, but arguably personal as well. At least, that's what I can remember from that game.

but still this

 

[Dashell]

And then Zee goes and makes me laugh and none of this matters anymore.

EDIT:

also can someone explain to me how what he's holding is not a feather *Posts Dissidia's ending where Squall grabs a random feather*

Work with me Zee. The feather is NOT his crystal. His crystal is a crystal and the feather is a feather